The only reason why Rey thinks Kyle might be redeemable in TLJ is because of Finn. Think about it:
In the TFA, as soon as Finn and Rey became an alliance, he always put her needs first, which she has never experienced in her life before. When Finn explains himself to Rey, she understands his situation of being is a man who was orphaned, tortured and conditioned into being a foot soldier for the evil. But even despite this and his obvious fear of the First Order, he puts his neck on the line to save Rey and the Resistance time and time again from joining the resistance mission to fighting Kyle.
No wonder she thought Kyle could be redeemed because if Finn, who has without a doubt suffered more in his lifetime than Kyle has, can take a stand toward the light and be a goddamn hero then any decent person can.
Only problem is Kyle isn’t a decent person and certainly isn’t nearly as good as Finn is.
Hey op you realize Kylo and Finn two different characters right. Both went through abuse Kylo( Snoke) and Finn( Fo) both of their abuse were different. This literally like “ good survivor” vs “ bad survivor” Both have their own arcs and paths
Like abuse people pick up signs different. Not everyone is lucky to noticed let alone get out when they have chance. Finn saw a chance and got out however it’s not quite same for Kylo.
You don’t need pit these two characters against each other. You don’t need to lift Finn up while pushing Kylo down.
Dislike Kylo fine but it’s really not needed to say why you like Finn.
People who compare abuse survivors and say UWU one should do better because another succeeded are the scummiest assholes who have no comprehension of how hard it is to recover.
This literally sounds so god damn ableist. What the fuck, OP
Some people?? commit mass murder?? to cope???
Anyway, Kyle Ron is a war criminal piece of shit who deserves death 🙂
men don’t abuse women because they haven’t learned how to cry+show emotions in a healthy way; they abuse women because since birth, through parenting and media and the overall surrounding culture they are taught that women are subhuman, made to exist in the control of men. men exercise this control through violence, with their entitlement translating into epidemic levels of rape and domestic violence.
simply telling men it’s ok to cry wont help women; an abuser can both cry and abuse you know!! society protecting women’s rights and showing zero tolerance towards rape and violence against women will help, and that’s what we should be focusing on instead of engaging with mra types who have no empathy for anyone but themselves
Some of the ways in which TLJ is a baldly, blatantly, aggressively Christian movie, in stark contrast to the very Jewish TFA:
Pain,
suffering, abject failure and loss, including the deaths of many good
people, are held up to be ultimately positive lessons. In Jewish thought, in contrast, while good can come of suffering pain is not good or holy in of itself. The point in Judaism is to lessen pain and improve life, not to join in suffering.
TLJ shows borderline obsession with “sin” and “sinners” as
salacious and fascinating, hence the focus on Kylo Ren. (I use quote
marks here because he is not just a “sinner,” he’s a criminal and
abuser.) In Judaism, sin is not nearly as big a deal so far as I can tell. It is not a subject of fixation to the point of romanticization.
The doctrine that everyone is a sinner is simplified
down to moral equivalence between good and evil people and
organizations. Of course Luke also had darkness in him because he too is
a sinner, etc.
Self-sacrifice is the ultimate virtue and
washes away any mistakes one might have made, e.g. Luke and Holdo. It’s basically martyrdom in space. In Jewish thought, while martyrdom can be necessary, it is not something to be sought out and should be avoided if possible.
TLJ’s emphasis on forgiveness, redemption, and patience is also very Christian. Rey is suddenly and
uncharacteristically devoted to the idea of saving Kylo Ren, Rose gives
Finn the speech about not fighting what they hate, which doesn’t even
make sense on its face in the midst of a struggle against a genocidal force. In contrast, anger against oppression is an important theme in Judaism and you can see this in Finn and Rey’s anger in TFA. This is one of the ways TLJ marks a sharp tonal departure from TFA.
On a related note, redemption for Kylo Ren as presented in this movie looks a lot like cheap grace, which German theologian and anti-Nazi dissident Dietrich Bonhoeffer described as “preaching forgiveness without requiring repentance.” Significantly, Bonhoeffer was resisting the Nazi influence on the German Lutheran church with his opposition to cheap grace. Cheap grace is an alien and repugnant concept to Judaism–forgiveness is not an obligation even if the wrongdoer has repented and made amends.
Yoda performs a classic smashing of the idols scene with a bait-and-switch book burning. By contrast I am told that book burning
is unthinkable for Jewish people due to the great respect for scholarly
traditions in Judaism. This is especially true for foundational texts like the ones Yoda pretended he was destroying: People have run into burning synagogues to save the Torah, which is a matter of not only scholarship but identity. The scene becomes all the more jarring when juxtaposed against the many purges and massacres the Jedi Order and their followers suffered, including in TFA.
Crait has a very distinct
red-on-white look reminiscent of the Crusaders/Knights Templar. In Jewish imagery blue is the color of supreme importance, and it is even more strongly associated with the good guys in TFA than in the previous movies.
In TLJ lawful authority is
not to be questioned, even if they are violent, seem untrustworthy, and look like they will lead to outright ruin. This is a rather un-Star Wars
message, making it stick out all the more. On the other hand, unquestioning obedience to authority is anathema to Jewish people. They argue with everyone, including God. Especially God.
(via kyberfox) “Godspeed, Rebels.” First of all it’s the Resistance, but… excuse me, God?? What? God??!!? Also, Kylo Ren asks Luke if he came to save his soul, another blatant and aggressive insertion of Christian concepts into Star Wars.
(I am so deeply indebted to @kyberfox and @attackfish for this list that giving individual credit for the ideas would be distracting. Suffice it to say substantially all the perspectives on Judaism and many of the points on Christianity are theirs.)
Note: Below is a submission that I was asked to add anonymously to this post. TW for sexual assault, aphobia, gaslighting, abuse.
I was raised Catholic, and a small branch of my family is Jewish. I
probably know more than the average goy about Judaism, but not by a lot.
I am the survivor of a lot of sexual assault and harassment that took
place at Catholic school. I was 13, and the other kids wanted to know
who in the class I thought was hot, I said I didn’t think anyone was
(turns out I’m aroace, and yes, even the Catholics recognize that as not
being straight), and they took that as something that could be
corrected by force. They groped me, destroyed my possessions, scraped me
across a brick wall, and held me down to put makeup on me. In
hindsight, the worst part was that the teacher’s son would come over
from the high school on his lunch break, sit on my desk, and sexually
assault me during class while his mother taught and pretended nothing
was wrong. Then she would gaslight me about what he, and the other
students had done. The teachers knew what was happening, it happened in
front of them, and obviously the one I previously mentioned knew about
enough of it to gossip to her son so he would come join in. They didn’t
care because they knew I was queer before I knew I was queer, and this
is what happens to queer kids at bad Catholic schools. The teachers let
it happen, because they think it’ll turn you straight. And if not and
you kill yourself, no loss. You’re going to hell anyway.
They
would make me say that I forgave the boys who assaulted me. Because that
is a big part of being a good Christian, forgiveness. It took me a
long time to realize that the only people who deserve forgiveness are
the ones who are actually sorry, and aren’t going to do it again. The
rest can piss off. That’s what TLJ missed, and what is so Christian
about it. Your abuser doesn’t deserve your sympathy. Turns out that the
teacher’s son who abused me was the product of rape himself, and other
adults in the community tell me that I should feel bad for her and him
because of that. I was supposed to feel sympathy for her, but she stood
by and did nothing while her son assaulted me. I am sorry that she was
raped and that’s why he exists, but that doesn’t absolve her of standing
by and watching him hurt me. She doesn’t deserve my forgiveness, and
neither does he. Kylo doesn’t deserve Rey’s forgiveness either. He has
done nothing but hurt her and the people she loves, and while he may be
feeling some regret, he would absolutely do it again (i.e. not wanting
to save the Resistance fleet), and therefore she owes him nothing. Not a
single bit of sympathy, and definitely not forgiveness. Sure, he has a
tragic past, but he’s still making choices as an adult to hurt people,
and be skeevy to a teenager a full decade younger than him. Rey has no
reason to feel like she owes him anything, unless she’s being subjected
to shitty Christianity. (I saw shitty Christianity because I know that
not all of Christianity is like this, but tbh a lot of it is shitty and
is exactly like this)
It took me years to realize this for myself,
and to realize that the only people responsible for my abuse were my
abusers and it wasn’t my fault. I’m seeing a therapist now, and was
diagnosed with PTSD, and things got better once I was able to talk about
it in a more reasonable setting than Catholic school. TLJ threw me for a
fucking loop though. Kylo is so much like the people who abused me. In
TFA it was empowering to see Rey interact with him because it was
obvious that there was this angry feral part of her that wanted to tear
out his throat. That anger was good. That anger was something I hadn’t
been allowed to have in Catholic school. I had to be meek and forgiving.
I had to be like Rey in TLJ where she says “Ben,” so quietly when she’s
trying to turn him to the light. What I loved about Rey in TFA was her
anger, and from what I read in the Old Testament and what I hear my
cousins talk about in the Torah, TFA Rey absolutely acts like a Jewish
girl from those stories. Her anger would have been a so much better
direction for the story line to pursue in TLJ, if her temptation to the
Dark Side was due to her (justifiable) anger at Kylo. But that’s not
what happened, because exactly as you said, the narrative took on a
distinctly Christian slant of forgiveness, even when that forgiveness
isn’t justified.
I am so glad that this movie didn’t come out
while I was still in Catholic school. Star Wars was my escape from that,
and if I’d seen a Star Wars movie where the heroine is forced into a
narrative of forgiveness towards her abuser, and Luke Skywalker is
depressed and hopeless and sacrifices himself in what really seems to me
like a suicide, I would not have gotten through those years because it
would have been the wrong message from one more source and I don’t think
I could have taken it.
Being able to pinpoint that there was a
Christian shift to TLJ helped me a lot in understanding why that movie
was so upsetting to me, so I’m sharing this in hopes that it helps other
survivors, and also maybe helps people who haven’t been through this
sort of abusive shit understand why the narrative of forgiveness in TLJ
is so nauseating.
how can you look at finn and have the first word come to your mind be ‘selfish’? his entire storyline in tfa was built around the fact that he chooses over and over again to be selfless. finn lays down his weapon in the village in the opening sequence because he doesn’t want to kill for the first order even in the face of serious repercussions; even in deleted scenes from the village we see finn let a villager go and escape. just that ten-minute sequence alone sets up who finn is at his core: which is someone who time and time again acts selflessly in order to help others, someone who not only is selfless but chooses to be selfless.
Yes, but the fear of what the First Order would do with him if they catch him made him selfish enough to always want to run for himself (or with Rey) instead of keeping fighting for a greater cause. He needed this arc to let go his fear and Finn x Phasma fighting is the climax when he finally assumes himself as “rebel scum”.
@skywalkerstruelegacy That is such bs, and a directly harmful narrative to abuse survivors to say “you have to stay and fight or you’re selfish and a bad person”
In fact, giving Finn an arc that allowed him to be “selfish” and protect himself. Who allowed him to choose what he wanted to do instead of abusing him yet again into fighting would have been a good story. Instead we have yet another predictable and harmful story about an abuse survivor being offered no real choice, but assaulted and forced into a situation that they didn’t want to be in.
Finn didn’t need this. No abuse survivor “needs” this and oyu need to cut it with your bs
Kylo was “gentle” with Rey exactly until she didn’t do what he wanted, when he snapped at her like he was that creep in Girls (who was super abusive btw) then proceeded to order her destruction, but ok, with her he’s rainbows and sunshine.
This is textbook abuse. Most abusers can be charming and gentle as long as you fall in line–it’s called manipulation. I am blown away that it is the year 2018 and there are people don’t see through this tactic.
Kylo Ren doesn’t feel sorry, doesn’t apologize for any of his actions, but always demands to be forgiven. That’s textbook abuse. It’s so obvious it’s french kissing you.
Whenever I hear “well Finn had to learn to care about more than just himself and his immediate friends” I want to punch the one saying it.
Not because it’s factually incorrect, which it is, but because it shows a complete lack of compassion. They either do not know, or more likely do not care, about how hard it would be for him as an abuse survivor to say ‘no’, to look after himself and his own needs first and not constantly put others first.
When someone has been brutalized emotionally as well as physically their whole life like Finn has, saying ‘I want’ or ‘I need’ is difficult in and of itself, just figuring what it is you need or want is difficult. But acting on a need or desire when someone else is making a demand of you… that takes more emotional and mental fortitude than people who have not grown up in an abusive household can ever imagine. Especially when you just escaped the abusive situation like Finn just has and have had no time at all to heal the deep wounds in your heart and soul.
For Finn to put himself and his own needs and desires over others would take enormous courage from him. And saying that he needs to learn to put others first and commit to something bigger than himself is unspeakably evil and cruel.
We know why they’re so obsessed with the idea of making Finn serve others and put himself last.
so yeah the ‘you’re nothing’ line is awful and abusive and manipulative and should disqualify kylo ren from any positive relationship with rey ever and the fact that people are romanticising it is frankly disgusting but let’s also remind ourselves of some other moments in tlj:
rey’s first instinct on seeing ren was to shoot him
ren’s first instinct on seeing rey was to attempt to force her to bring luke to him, his motives are clear from the start
she spends their first three interactions insulting him, rebuffing him and generally telling him to fuck off
the force “”bond”” is non consensual. rey never consented to it. ren never consented either but when he realised what it was, he instantly began using it to manipulate rey for his own purposes.
the true force bond (which this is not) is not inherently romantic. previous force bonds include erza and darth maul as well as luke and leia. claiming that this bond is romantic is similar to claiming the connection between harry and voldemort in order of the phoenix is romantic when it’s sole narrative purpose is to manipulate the hero and for the hero to eventually overcome it
she is extremely uncomfortable in his presence for their first interactions
ren manipulates rey into putting herself into a situation that would make her more emotionally vulnerable and feel completely and utterly alone because he wanted something from her aka luke’s location and her power
she didn’t want to turn him because she cared about him, she wanted to turn him for strategic value for the resistance
they don’t care about each other, just what the other person can bring to their side
they only get along for five minutes before realising that their goals are completely incompatible with one another and the immediate reaction of ren is to begin insulting, manipulating and degrading rey.
rey turned ren down, cementing their places on opposing sides
rey left ren for dead on a ship that was about to blow up. this is literally the second time that she has done this in five days.
ren ordered the falcon blown out of the sky with a high probability that rey was on it
seriously, he sent his entire air support to shoot down his father’s ship. the ship he knew rey had arrived on and that chewbacca was definitely on.
one of ren’s final lines in the movie is a promise to ‘destroy her [rey], and you and all of it’. sounds pretty comprehensive to me when you consider he attempted to murder luke moments later
when ren attempted to reconnect with rey through the bond, she rejected him metaophorically and physically
rey looked happier hugging finn and talking to poe for a combined 25 seconds than she has talking to ren. ever. full stop. period. end of.
speaking of the scene with poe, this is a direct response to the ‘you’re nothing’ line. it’s there to show rey and the audience that ren was wrong and she’s not nothing. that she is both someone and important.
in conclusion, romanticising any of this is romanticising the emotional abuse and manipulation of a 19 year old girl who has gone through a lot emotionally in the past five or so days we’ve known her and have been following her journey. r*ylo is nothing but a shocking case study in how we as a society are conditioned to believe that a woman’s abuse, discomfort and pain is sexy if there’s a mildly attractive white man involved. thank you for coming to my ted talk.
L.J.'s Obsessions 