Tag: anidala

A reincarnation theory of Finn and Rey

I kind of subscribe to the idea that Rey is the reincarnation of Anakin. By this I don’t mean she’s a Skywalker or is Anakin himself, only that she has Anakin’s spirit returning to take care of unfinished business–and boy does that fucker have lots of it.

Maybe it’s my cultural background, but I was always confused when reincarnation was called a “parentage theory.” Reincarnated people, at least in the popularized version of Buddhism I grew up with, have their own parents and are not usually related by blood to their previous incarnation.

Heck, in this worldview reincarnation doesn’t even make Rey special, it’s just something everyone does until they throw off all worldly attachments and leave the cycle altogether. I would argue that Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and now Luke achieved this state but Anakin did not, for all his spirit appeared briefly next to Obi-Wan. I think Anakin still has too much to make up for, and this was a brief pit stop before he moved on. Between his death and rebirth as Rey I imagine he was reincarnated hundreds of times as, like, worms and lice that were painfully killed as a very small portion of the punishment he deserved for his actions as Anakin/Vader. Now that his spirit has advanced through these incarnations he was brought back as a human again because the galaxy needs his power and he can try and begin to make up for the harm he did.

Rey as Anakin’s reincarnation would explain a lot of things, like how she is so powerful in the Force and grasps new powers so quickly. It would also explain Kylo’s fascination with her, because as a Force user he can sense people’s souls and she is his actual idol brought back to life. Also like, her being forced to live for most of her life on a desert planet. If that’s not the universe playing a cosmic joke on Anakin Skywalker, noted sand-hater, idk what is.

On the same note, I imagine Finn as the reincarnation of Padmé. She probably had much better reincarnations between her death and being born as Finn, maybe she even took a break from corporeal life for a few decades or lived as a succession of beautiful flowering plants and beloved sad-eyed dogs while she tried to recover from the grief still in her soul. Maybe she was someone’s much-loved and short-lived child for a while because I have an evil imagination. When she was ready to come back as a sentient being she willingly took on more suffering than she deserved to try and make up for Anakin’s sins and her own perceived faults, and thus Finn’s kidnapping and long period of enslavement.

Like Padmé, Finn is a natural leader with firm conviction and unshakeable principles. He is a mean shot with a blaster, loyal to his friends, and inspires devotion in people. He was so sure that the galaxy would rise up against the First Order’s tyranny and rally around Leia, he was willing to give his life for that belief. It wasn’t just Leia that he so strongly believed in and supported–he also wanted to run out and help Luke against an entire army despite never having laid eyes on the man before in his life. Maybe not in his own life, but a previous one?

Much as Anakin’s soul seeks Padmé out, her spirit seeks him–and that’s why, in addition to Finn’s own goodness, he was drawn to help Rey at first sight, and why they hit it off so quickly despite a rocky start. The idea of being separated was unbearable to them after knowing each other only for a few hours, and when Finn saw Rey being carried off by a Dark Lord to face torture and a possible fall to the Dark Side, it shattered him and he moved heaven and earth to be by her side again.

Together they must succeed where their previous incarnations failed and save the galaxy from the fascist threat. They must also resolve what went wrong between them last time, and Rey already passed the first test by resisting Kylo’s temptation where Anakin had fallen to Palpatine’s wiles. Finn and Rey’s souls will always pull each other, yearning to find happiness together where they could not the last time around.

I’m not saying any of this is going to be some big dramatic reveal, it’s how I understand the dramatic motifs and characters. Stories of reincarnated romance are common in the culture I grew up in, and I find the idea of Finnrey as reincarnated Anidala terribly romantic and compelling.

themandalorianwolf:

The story of Anakin and Padme is tragic as shit. They had a 14 year long relationship. Friends, comrades, equals, lovers, and eventually married soon to be parents. They went through an entire war together side by side.

The relationship while beautiful while it lasted, ended horrifically. Seriously I wouldn’t wish this relationship on anyone because just how it ended.

Anakin and Padme can’t be compared to any other relationship because their relationship is too layered with complexity and horrifying events.

Palpatine had gone out of his way to twist Anakin’s mind and Anakin’s own fear of losing people like he did with Qui-Gon, his mother, and Ahsoka, really messed him up. He became a monster.

Maybe in the next life they’ll find each other, but their story is a tragic af one.

themandalorianwolf:

bygone-age:

themandalorianwolf:

adventures-in-poor-planning:

love love love how both obi-wan and anakin’s teaching style is Wildly Exaggerated Hypocrisy:

“anakin don’t be so dramatic,” obi-wan says, as he goes to fight ventress w. a rose between his teeth, “and stop losing yr lightsaber” as if he has not lost his lightsaber, 15 separate cloaks, his whole-ass patience, and his lightsaber again.

“ahsoka you really need to respect the council,” says anakin, while on his phone, dragging the council on his poorly-disguised ventblog that mace windu hate-reads with his wine before bed every night.

absolute hypocrite Bastards, i love them.

poorly-disguised ventblog that mace windu hate-reads with his wine before bed every night.

Prequel culture is so civilized

I always had Mace Windu as brandy man, but I guess I could see him with a glass of red wine.

Brandy is for the days when Anakin forgets to turn off his comlink and the entire council listens to him and Padme connect powerconverts

Anidala Anon: I actually don’t think Anidala and Reylo are comparable in their entirety or in many thematic ways. I was just curious of your own beliefs/interpretation. If Reylo does end up being canon (who knows what JJ will do), I think it would stand alone from Anidala, and for good reasons. A complete redemption of Ben Solo would absolutely have to occur, and he would have to want it and achieve it on his own. I am not here for Rey having to fix anyone or anything. Thanks for answering!

My problem with that scenario is that it would make Episode IX entirely about Kylo, with everyone else playing second fiddle while he undoes the developments of the past two movies. Kylo already made it abundantly clear what exactly he wants, it would be a hell of a course correction for his desire to completely change. I also find the character being so centered unlikely when J.J. pretty much called him a neo-Nazi, a group I doubt he has warm and fuzzy feelings for.

And if Kylo does repent and crawls to Rey’s doorstep begging for forgiveness, why would she take him? He’s still the man who tortured her, used her to gain power, tried to kill all her friends, and emotionally abused her. What exactly does he offer her? I never get a real answer when I ask this question.

Anyway, thanks for stopping by. Have fun.

How Finn and Rey saved each other again in The Last Jedi

leg-grestrade:

lj-writes:

leg-grestrade:

diversehighfantasy:

lj-writes:

Or: How TLJ is RotS averted far more than RotJ subverted

At
the end of The Force Awakens we watched Finn and Rey both stand up to Kylo Ren for each other, effectively saving each other and
themselves from the Master of the Knights of Ren. When Rey was knocked
out Finn took up the lightsaber; when Finn was injured, Rey woke up to
his screams and snatched the lightsaber from Ren to defend Finn and
herself.

This dynamic takes place again in the climax of The
Last Jedi, except Finn and Rey were not in the same scene like they were
during the dueling sequence in TFA. in TLJ, though kept apart until
their heartwarming reunion hug, they saved each other through the
choices they made and what each meant to the other.

The A-plot of
TLJ has been called a subversion of Return of the Jedi, for good reason.
Rey attempts to bring Kylo Ren back to the light in scenes that are
some very direct callbacks to Luke and Vader in RotJ, except
Kylo Ren, unlike Vader, refuses Rey’s plea and rises to the position of Big Bad
instead.

TLJ is only primarily a subversion of RotJ if you focus
on Rey and Ren, however. If you broaden the focus to Rey, Finn, and Ren
and the dynamics between them, it is the tragic ending of Revenge of the
Sith averted.

Keep reading

Kylo as a parallel for Palpatine with Rey as Anakin makes so much more sense than Kylo as the new Anakin and Rey the new Padme. SO much more sense. If we learned one thing from Snoke’s surprisingly weak role in TLJ, it’s that Kylo was the manipulator, the one pulling the strings. It took nothing for him to kill Snoke and become Supreme Leader.

Vader never came close to being Emperor or anything of the sort. He died taking down the Emperor, even with his incredible power. If Snoke thought Kylo could be his Vader-esque attack dog, he miscalculated. Snoke was less powerful and possibly less evil than Kylo. Luke’s terror looking into Ben’s mind supports it.

Kylo miscalculated too, though – he’s not as sharp as Palpatine. He thought Rey’s weakness was her parentage and desire to have an “important” place in the story, some narcissistic projecting by Kylo. Her weakness was Finn. If he had told her that joining him would save Finn, things may have played out differently. Instead, Kylo acted as another challenge in her journey back to Finn. She was unsuccessful in “turning” him, but he was unsuccessful in diverting her journey the way Palpatine did with Anakin.

Wow. I never thought of that before, but I think you’re right @diversehighfantasy. I wonder if Kylo is just not bright or, ugh, as much as I HATE to think it, is attracted to Rey in some manner that the idea of doing that was repugnant to him. It’s not as if he doesn’t know Rey is still attached to Finn. It says right in the novelization that he knows she’s thinking about him. Palps hit Anakin’s weak spot in Padme. Kylo should have realized Rey’s weak spot was Finn. The idea that he didn’t take it suggests to me that he’s either dumber than a box of dog hair, or that there was some thought of making this some sort of stupid love triangle. 

@diversehighfantasy Looking at the plot objectively, it really was Kylo manipulating everything to his advantage. By reeling Rey in as he did with a sob story and bringing her to Snoke’s flagship he:

– Established personal rapport with Rey and turned her against Luke

– Physically separated her from her allies in the Resistance, isolating her further

– Gained a distraction so he could kill Snoke

– Gained an ally in the fight against the Praetorian Guards, because the Knights of Ren were all on vacation or something

– Gained a patsy to blame Snoke’s death on

– Had the perfect opportunity to exploit Rey’s psychological weakness and bring her to his side, except he chose the wrong hook like the elitist narcissist he is

– Rose to the position of Supreme Ruler

An alternative theory: Space Hugh Hefner doesn’t look that hot himself, he seems ill and in pain. It’s possible that he did not have that long to live, so maybe this was his twisted idea of a succession. Was KR scheming and ruthless enough to kill and succeed him? Or would Hux take that position instead? This is the kind of thing Hitler actually did, pitting his senior staff against each other, minus the death wish part (that came later).

Holy shit, was this what Snoke meant at the end of TFA by completing Kylo’s training? If not what JJ intended, then at least what RJ made of it? Kylo had passed the test of killing what he loved; was it time for his final test, to learn to scheme and manipulate and take power? And did Kylo actually realize this on some level when he didn’t fire on Leia–I mean he didn’t give a shit anyway that she was spaced–that his real obstacle wasn’t to keep repeating the Han scenario, but to overcome Snoke himself?

Could this be the in-universe reason for the Knights of Ren being sent away–so that Kylo would be deprived of his greatest tactical asset and would be forced to improvise?

Maybe Snoke wasn’t as incomptent as he seemed. Maybe everything went exactly as he planned, or at least hoped.

@leg-grestrade The idea of KR being attracted to Rey makes him about eleventy times more disgusting so it might actually work for his character, although it adds a really gross taste to everything and isn’t really the SW tone. I mean, imagine if Palpatine did the “I have you now, my pretty” shit on Leia or Padmé… like… ew. One of the things I like about SW is that powerful women are allowed to have male rivals and enemies without it being creepily sexual. Jabba the Hutt was an exception and- well actually I’m fine with Rey strangling Kyle to death lol.

I think Kylo’s choosing to take an elitist tack was mostly projection as DHF said, since he was ragging on her being a “scavenger” even in TFA as though she weren’t completely comfortable with that. But it’s really disturbing to think that he might be obsessed with “pure Force babies” himself.

But yeah, if he grows any kind of smarts at all he will use Finn against her and vice versa in Episode IX. The bond between Finn and Rey has been built up for two movies, and he–and the creators–had better use it to maximum effect.

@lj-writes, I think my supposition sort of goes hand in hand with your idea of Kylo ragging on her. That’s why I scoff at reylos claiming Kylo had an enormous boner for her in TFA. He didn’t. One of the things with Kylo I thought JJ got right, if he was making him a Vader stan, was sharing Vader (and Palpatine’s) disdain for non-Force sensitive beings. They might respect them to some degree, like a Tarkin, but they still thought they were inferior, to a certain degree. There was something in Legends where Palps almost went over the line, questioning why Vader would have gone for Padme as a non-Force sensitive before catching himself and stating that she was a lovely woman from a good family on par with the Naboo Palpatines (all of whom he killed, btw). 

In TFA, Kylo considered Rey nothing but a dumpster diver, who he was going to violate and discard, the way he’d planned on doing with Poe. It was only when she proved to be Force Sensitive that he backed off and tried to change tactics, because as FS being, she was now worthy of more of his regard – until he didn’t need it anymore.

This is why I feel it was a mistake to not confirm Finn as FS in TFA. Because in TLJ, the through-line by Rian Asshole seems to be “Rey can only turn to Kylo because as a FS being, he alone understands her pain and what she needs, and they have a bond no one who isn’t FS an understand.” By not making them have a familial bond, Rian was basically saying Kylo and Rey are the only ones for each other, and if it doesn’t happen, it’s not because it shouldn’t, but because it couldn’t. It’s something that has been picked up by general audiences as well as Reylos, and goes along with Kylo’s disgust that Rey is worried about Finn. Why worry about some non-FS “traitor” when FS Kylo and his square boobs are right there?

Of course, no one seemed to complain about the lack for Force Sensitivity in the partners of Leia and Anakin. But we all know what the difference was there.

I never got the impression Vader respected Tarkin tbh, he and Palpatine found Tarkin’s abilities useful but Vader was really pissy about Tarkin not respecting the Force and himself enough, feeling himself owed a degree of deference for his abilities. The way Snoke talks about Hux, a.k.a. Tarkin II, behind his back is downright depersonalizing–not to say Hux doesn’t deserve serious disrespect, but it seems to be for the wrong reasons.

While I strongly believe Force sensitive Finn is canon, I am not at all sure that the canon will confirm his Force sensitivity and canon Finnrey at the same time. Anakin married a non-Force sensitive, as you point out, and so did Leia. In the lamentable Luke-Leia-Han triangle Leia chose Han even before she knew Luke was her brother. Luke’s marriage to Mara Jade or someone like her never happened in this continuity, so far as we know. If Kyle Ron is interested in bucking that trend and “continuing the bloodline” with a powerful Force-sensitive woman (ew), it would present a stronger contrast if Rey marries a non-Force sensitive rather than another Force-sensitive person. It’s all sorts of problematic that they might position the Black male lead as the one with “lesser” genes whom Rey chooses for love, but Han was originally cast to be played by a Black man with all the problems this implies. And the Reylows can fuck off with their not-even-veiled eugenics rhetoric.

How Finn and Rey saved each other again in The Last Jedi

Or: How TLJ is RotS averted far more than RotJ subverted

At
the end of The Force Awakens we watched Finn and Rey both stand up to Kylo Ren for each other, effectively saving each other and
themselves from the Master of the Knights of Ren. When Rey was knocked
out Finn took up the lightsaber; when Finn was injured, Rey woke up to
his screams and snatched the lightsaber from Ren to defend Finn and
herself.

This dynamic takes place again in the climax of The
Last Jedi, except Finn and Rey were not in the same scene like they were
during the dueling sequence in TFA. in TLJ, though kept apart until
their heartwarming reunion hug, they saved each other through the
choices they made and what each meant to the other.

The A-plot of
TLJ has been called a subversion of Return of the Jedi, for good reason.
Rey attempts to bring Kylo Ren back to the light in scenes that are
some very direct callbacks to Luke and Vader in RotJ, except
Kylo Ren, unlike Vader, refuses Rey’s plea and rises to the position of Big Bad
instead.

TLJ is only primarily a subversion of RotJ if you focus
on Rey and Ren, however. If you broaden the focus to Rey, Finn, and Ren
and the dynamics between them, it is the tragic ending of Revenge of the
Sith averted.

In fact, seeing TLJ as RotS averted subverts
the very idea that Kylo Ren was ever Anakin to Rey’s Luke: Rather he is
Palpatine, and Finn and Rey parallel Padmé and Anakin respectively, except
they each avoided destruction and enslavement. Rey, in no small part due
to Ren’s manipulation, saw him as a tortured soul who could be
redeemed. In fact he was a master manipulator who was drawing her
in for his own gain.

Rey’s lack of genre savviness, based on
a mistaken character reading, almost led to her meeting Anakin’s fate
as the subservient apprentice to an abusive master. Instead, she was
able to avoid it because of the love between her and Finn. In turn, Finn
and the Resistance avoided destruction in part because Rey did not turn
on Finn as Kylo wanted and as Anakin turned on Padmé.

The similarities between Finn/Padmé and
Rey/Anakin, and also their story together, have been commented on enough
times, recently in posts like @jewishcomeradebot’s (link with my addition).
What I have not seen discussed is the similarities of their dynamics to
Kylo Ren/Palpatine, the man who manipulated a powerful younger Force
user under the guise of friendship only to use them to grasp l power,
and tried to take his rival out of the picture for good.

Put
simply, Finn is Ren’s opponent and rival, much as Padmé was Palpatine’s
opponent and rival. They share a common background and know each other, have opposing convictions and goals, and work against each other. Rey on the other
hand, is someone Ren wants to turn and make his apprentice, much as
Anakin was targeted and groomed by Palpatine. The tragedy in RotS was that Palpatine achieved his goal
of defeating Padmé and making Anakin his apprentice. The happy ending in
TLJ is that Finn and Rey escaped that fate.

How did Finn and
Rey avoid the tragedy that was Padmé and Anakin’s story? On Rey’s side,
it was because she knew Kylo Ren was full of bantha poo-doo (and also
was poo-doo himself) when he told her she was nothing except to him. She
had incontrovertible proof that this wasn’t true, no matter how he
might twist the knife in the wound of her abandonment, no matter how
alone and desperate she felt by his design.

She knew because
Finn had come back for her to Starkiller Base. He had returned to the
very heart of the nightmares that he was ready to flee to the ends of
the galaxy to run from, and he very nearly paid the ultimate price for
it–for her. She knew that Han had thought of her as a daughter and that Leia
and the Resistance loved her. The love she had been filled up with
since she left Jakku, with Finn and his sacrifice for her at the center of it all,
anchored her and prevented her from being swept onto the shoals of Kylo
Ren’s deceit.

On Finn’s side,
he avoided total defeat and death in large part due to Rose’s and later
Luke’s intervention, but even their help would have meant little in the long run if Rey had turned against him and the Resistance as Anakin had turned against Padmé and all
she stood for. Where Anakin and later Kylo himself had committed mass
murders at their masters’ behest, Rey refused to stand by and let her
friends be slaughtered and joined forces with them. Where Palpatine had
triumphed by turning Anakin against Padmé, Rey was steadfast in her
loyalty to Finn, and Kylo failed to tear their bond apart. Their love
proved stronger than his violence in TFA and his wiles in TLJ.

The
culmination of TLJ, then, repeats that of TFA with Finn and Rey saving
each other through the strength of their love. The duels in TFA were
just between Finn, Rey, and Kylo with a personal, even claustrophobic
feel. Only Finn’s life and Rey’s freedom were in suspense since the
destruction of Starkiller Base was already imminent. In TLJ the stakes
are even larger, with more people involved and the future of the
Resistance–and by extension, the galaxy–in the balance.

Incidentally,
seeing TLJ as RotS averted and Ren as a so-far unsuccessful Palpatine
means there is no need for Ren to have an understandable motivation. As @jewishcomeradebot has pointed out (link),
Vader’s motivation for falling to the Dark Side is completely opaque in
the OT. Luke, the actual protagonist, had no reason to know or care
about Vader’s reasons. I would like to add that the PT explored Anakin’s
internal life, but that was because Anakin was the protagonist of that
series. Kylo Ren is not a protagonist, he has been and remains the main
antagonist. The motivation behind his fall is irrelevant to Finn and
Rey. It may be that there is no reason other than his belief that he is
superior to others and is entitled to power, much like Palpatine.

Where
does Finn and Rey’s story go from here? With the pretension of TLJ
being the new RotJ dispensed with and the tragedy of RotS avoided for
the moment, SW is on entirely new ground. The ends of both preceding
trilogies were teased but subverted or averted. There is no precedent to
guide us now.

One constant in the ST, however, is the strength of
the bond between Finn and Rey. Both the ST movies so far ended with
that bond both reaffirmed and acting as a powerful force (maybe even
Force) for good in the lives of our protagonists and the ongoing war. To
carry this motif forward Finn and Rey’s love could be tested even more,
with still larger stakes–the outcome of the entire war.

On Rey’s
side, one interesting dilemma would be whether she can accept the risk
of losing Finn in order to honor his conviction. This was a test that
Anakin had failed in regard to Padmé, to both their destruction. Rather
than stand with Padmé Anakin turned against everything she believed in,
and the desire to control her to avoid losing her overwhelmed his love for her. We know that
Rey, like Anakin, wanted nothing more than a sense of belonging and
attachment and she found that with Finn. Now that Finn, like Padmé
before him, found a cause bigger than the two of them, can Rey honor
that cause even if it might mean she cannot be with the only person who came
back for her? What is love? is it
holding on to the beloved no matter what? Or does it lie in accepting
change if it may come, and accepting the beloved’s free will even if it means parting with them?

On Finn’s side, his story has been about freedom and the
ever-expanding awareness that he cannot be free by himself. From the first he needed another person, Poe, to escape the First Order. After losing Poe he sought freedom for himself as he continued running, unexpectedly picking up a comrade that he became more and more attached to. This attachment grew to the extent that it overrode his original goal–he
found that his individual freedom meant little if Rey was suffering. Then, in
late TFA and TLJ, the Resistance and a larger awareness of the galaxy were enfolded
in his circle. In the next movie the galaxy itself, including possibly the Stormtroopers in forced servitude, is likely to be included
in his fight.

With his circle of moral obligation expanding so much, can Finn remember to think about himself and his closest relationships? This was something actively discouraged in him in the First Order as selfish and inconsequential, and after his arc in TLJ his earlier conditioning may lead to his falling into the same habit of self-effacement, though for an opposing cause. Is it selfish to think of his beloved when the universe is at stake? Can he bring himself to think he deserves to love and to be loved? Does true freedom exclude considerations of love, or is freedom only complete with love? Rose gave one answer at the end of TLJ, that freedom can only be won through love, and certainly Rey avoiding servitude through love is a case for that assertion as well. This conclusion is likely to be tested, though, as the fight intensifies and the demands of the war grow harsher.

Where Rey’s continuing story seems to be about the nature of love with implications for freedom, Finn’s appears to be about the nature of freedom with implications for love. Resolving this continuing arc will hopefully lead to a satisfactory conclusion of the sequel trilogy and the story of Finn and Rey.

(For @finnreyfridays )

jewishcomeradebot:

lj-writes:

jewishcomeradebot:

I don’t understand the people who say that Kylo would have worked better if he had been a random, I really don’t. Kylo’s connection to the Skywalker bloodline, along with the lack of clear motive for his actions, is the entire point.

See, he’s a Nazi.

Okay, so technically he’s an allegory for a neo-Nazi in a space fantasy setting, but given that this hellsite has a distinct difficulty with complex concepts I’ll keep it simple. He’s a Nazi.

Why did Nazis do what they did? Why do neo-Nazis do what they do?

If you peel away all the embellishments and propaganda it comes right down to this: they see themselves as having a special legacy, a special bloodline to protect and they have a right to do so because they feel they’ve been chosen.

JJ has said that the early concept of Jedikiller only started working when they made him connected to the Skywalker bloodline, to the chosen family in Star Wars.

Kylo’s motivation, like that of all Nazis, is that he’s doing this because he belongs to the chosen people and thus have a right to rule. Not because he’s qualified, but because he belongs to the destined people.

No it’s not deep or complex, but it was never meant to be. Kylo is an antagonist and one JJ always meant to emulate a neo-Nazi. Giving him complex motivation would have detracted from this and, like with the real life equivalent, made it possible to justify what he’s doing because he has X, Y, Z motivation. Instead JJ gave him the most basic motivation of Nazis, he’s right because he’s chosen and because he has the strength to do what he does.

It’s not glorious. It’s pathetic, sad and ultimately someone who’s irredeemable. Not because he couldn’t choose differently than he does but because it’s not a motivation that makes anyone want to see him redeemed.

Of course, even people who sees Kylo as a villain and antagonist have a really hard time accepting him being a Nazi, so maybe this view isn’t really that surprising.

I mean the actor himself told us that Kylo Ren is an elitist (link), it’s not that deep people.

[Adam Driver] refuses to see his character as bratty. “There is a little bit of an
elitist, royalty thing going on,” he says, reminding us that the
character’s estranged mom is “the princess. I think he’s aware of maybe
the privilege.”

Cass Sunstein has criticized TLJ in part because Kylo didn’t fall due to losing a loved one (link), but maybe that’s because… Kylo is no Anakin… and is not nearly as sympathetic?

Mr. Dark Side, Kylo Ren, does have a bit of a struggle, and in that
sense, Johnson maintains continuity with Lucas’s vision. But in this
movie, at least, the struggle turns out to be a head fake. Because
Kylo’s descent doesn’t have the precipitating cause of Anakin’s – the
loss of loved ones – and because we don’t see Kylo suppressing the
better angels of his nature, the film doesn’t come anywhere close to the
depths of Lucas’s films.

If anyone is positioned as the new Anakin–but with a happy ending–it’s Rey, in struggling with the loss of loved ones, or at least her idea of them, and also in resisting manipulation by her would-be abusive mentor Kylo where Anakin fell to Palpatine’s manipulation. It’s interesting that Sunstein couldn’t recognize this story when it manifested in a female character, though to be sure it’s a common enough blind spot and RJ didn’t make it easy for anyone.

Precisely.

People, not just Cass here, are obsessed with having Kylo be the next Vader/Anakin, but he isn’t. Not to mention they’re even more obsessed with the reason why he fell to the Dark Side than they are with Rey’s parentage.

But let me ask you something. Did we know why Anakin fell in the OT? No, we didn’t, because the reason for it wasn’t relevant to Luke for whom Vader was a foil.

Is it relevant to Finn or to Rey why Kylo fell? So far we’ve been given not a single reason why this information should be relevant to either of them, so I don’t get why people are so upset about not knowing.

Except as yet another case of prioritizing the white guy over the two actual leads in the ST. Kylo’s motives for turning to the Dark are no more interesting or relevant to the narrative than Vader’s were in the OT. It’s not a plot hole, it’s not a flaw in the storytelling, it’s intentional. Only the parts of Kylo and his actions that are pertinent to Finn and Rey are relevant to the story, and unless someone can come up with a good reason why either of them should remotely care about it it’s going to remain irrelevant.

It’s why I was so attached to the idea of Rey Solo, I admit, because it would reconcile Kylo being like Anakin with the reason for his fall being relevant to Rey. The why would tie into Rey’s story while the how would directly contrast with Finn’s.

But it looks like the ST is going to go the route of only the how being relevant to both Rey and Finn. Rey at the end of TFA and even more throughout TLJ is where Kylo used to be, only to make different choices: she was chosen and groomed by a powerful Dark Force user while vulnerable and alone, but unlike Kylo she told the guy to fuck all the way off and chose to stand with her friends, not murder them. Finn throughout TFA and TLJ continues to present a direct contrast to Kylo Ren at every point, from backgrounds to choices to responses to abuse.

Rey is the one who could have been Kylo, had Kylo succeeded in his efforts. Finn is the one who stands in complete opposition to Kylo, and Kylo hates him for it.

This only strengthens the Finnrey/Anidala feels, by the way. Anakin/Rey was Palpatine/Kylo’s chosen victim-apprentice, but where Anakin chose the darkness and servitude Rey chose the light and freedom. Padmé/Finn was Palpatine/Kylo’s rival and enemy, but where Palpatine succeeded in destroying Padmé Kylo failed because where Anakin turned against Padmé, Rey was steadfast in her loyalty to Finn. We have no idea and no reason to care why Palpatine fell other than his desire for power, and the same is true of Kylo.

jewishcomeradebot:

Finn and Rey are Padmé and Anakin, only with a happy ending.

Their story so far has many of the same beats as Anakin’s and Padmé’s had in TPM and AotC. 

In the first installment of the story Rey (Anakin) is trapped in a life of servitude on a desert planet. While she might not be a slave exactly, she comes across as a form of indentured servant. 

Finn is the rebel against the status quo, the way Padmé rebelled at the stagnation and indifference of the Senate and at the end of the day will take matters into their own hands and resort to armed might to set things right, when the large galaxy appears to don’t give a fuck about their issues.

In part two, they’re kept apart. Where what kept Padmé and Anakin apart was social strictures and rules, Finn and Rey are kept apart physically. But in both cases both of them are yearning to be with each other against all the odds.

Their reunification after the battle is as tender and passionate as Anakin’s and Padmé’s after the Battle of Geonosis. They rush to each other and hold on tight, finally in the arms of the person they love.

But unlike Padmé and Anakin, Finn and Rey don’t have to hide. There are no strict Jedi masters spouting a dogma against romance to tell Rey she can’t show the love she feels for Finn. And Finn’s position in the Resistance as a leader and hero is not at odds with him loving and showing love, for Rey.

So though we lack an actual wedding scene I wonder if in Episode IX we’ll be presented with Finn’s and Rey’s romantic relationship as a already given entity, they’re simply presented as a couple from the beginning. Or if the confession of their love will happen very early instead.

Either way, it would make the most sense if the two of them spend most if not all of the movie as a couple and we see them navigate the obstacles of an ongoing war alongside the obstacle they face as a couple, the same way we see it with Anakin and Padmé in RotS. Only in this case Finn and Rey will have the happy ending Anakin’s obsession denied him and Padmé.

YES I’VE BEEN SAYING THIS FOREVER. Finn and Rey are genderflipped Anidala with a happy ending and better lines.

Other similarities, if you go back to TPM:

– Padmé/Finn originally met Anakin/Rey under an identity they assumed for safety reasons

– Both eventual couples became friends under Padmé/Finn’s assumed identity, and Padmé/Finn willingly revealed their true identity much to Anakin/Rey’s shock

– Both couples were good friends first. This stage was much longer for Padmé and Anakin since they were children when they first met and there were 10 years between their meeting in TPM and realizing their feelings in AotC. It’s pretty clear Rey and Finn were attracted to each other almost from the moment they first met, but they still started out as friends first and foremost.

Additional similarities with AotC:

– Rey and Finn  meet at almost exactly the same ages Anakin and Padmé
were in AotC, 19/23 to Anakin and Padmé’s 19/24. Incidentally 19 is the traditional age for Skywalkers to begin their adventures as adults including meeting prospective love interests, and 23 is the traditional age for Skywalker men to choose a side

– Padmé/Finn was marked for death due to their principled actions, and Anakin/Rey became involved in the situation by order or circumstance

– Padmé/Finn went to rescue a friend (Obi-Wan/Rey) despite the threat to their lives

– The rescue did not go as envisioned and it turned out the rescuee was more than capable of handling themselves

– Padmé/Finn is slashed across the back by a monster

– There’s a heartfelt declaration by both Padmé/Finn and Anakin/Rey, though the guy made the first move in both cases (”You are in my very soul, tormenting me”/”Rey, come with me”) and the girl initially refused (”It’s impossible”/”Don’t go”) before she reciprocated in the face of almost losing him (”I’ve been dying a little bit each day”/”Thank you, my friend.” I’m not kidding about the better lines here…)

In TLJ, arguably there was a form of social stricture that kept Finn and Rey apart physically–Rose and her demand that Finn give his full allegiance to the Resistance. As I discussed in The Temptations of Finn and Rey (link), this was a callback to Finn’s being coerced to give everything to a “higher cause” his whole life. This in turn ties back to the similarities between the FO’s Stormtrooper program and the Old Republic Jedi, taking children from their families at a young age and transferring their attachment to a larger cause. I like to think Rose grew as a character and realized that she had been wrong about Finn, but RJ’s execution is so muddled it’s hard to tell ¯_(ツ)_/¯

For this reason I think there’s a chance that “will they or won’t they” will still be a thing in Episode IX. Finn and Rey ended TLJ on essentially a misunderstanding and on opposite ends from their last real talk on Takodana. For all they love each other they are still essentially strangers who spent maybe a grand total of one day together in the midst of a galactical crisis. (That’s another parallel to AotC Anidala, incidentally.) The crisis is worse than ever at the end of TLJ, providing plenty of excuse for two uncertain and traumatized people to bury themselves in work and avoid talking about things too close to their hearts.

About Han’s age: “Star Wars: A New Hope The Princess, the Scoundrel and the Farm Boy” canon novel mentioned Han is just some years older than Luke and Leia making Luke doesn’t understand why he keep calling him “kid”. And in “Last Shot” he say to Maz he is in his early 20s and this moment happened 3 years before ANH

hanukkahfinn:

So quick bit of math.

This would make him somewhere between 21 and 24 three years before ANH. (Personally I’d call 24 mid-20s but you can make an argument for early 20s too.) Which would make him between 24 and 27 in ANH.

I can’t recall which novel it was, but it was one of the new Disney ones that happens right after ANH where Leia refers to Han as “late 20s” which would fit with an age of 26 or 27.

Apart from the timeline of Solo it’s interesting to note that not only has LF knocked years off Han’s age again and again, Disney have now made it so he is about 7-8 years older than Leia. Still an age gap, but one most would be able to live with.

Which is another reason I doubt either Reylo or Damerey will happen. All other things aside, given how they keep downsizing Han’s age because people are uncomfortable with the age gap, they’re not all of a sudden pair a teenaged girl off with a man 10-12 years her senior.

@ that dumbass anon who was saying Kylo and Rey’s age 10-year gap being the same as Han and Leia’s straight-up foreshadowed reylow–they’re wrong either way, either with the original Han-Leia age gap (13 years) or the retconned one (7-8). Also I find it creepy how eager people are to ship a 19 year old young woman with much-older men in their late 20s and 30s rather than someone who 1. “she already adores” (this is straight from the TFA script), and 2. is much closer to her age, very similar to the ages of Anakin and Padmé when they fell in love.