Tag: anon

I never said that Rian’s choices flowed organically from TFA’s ending, stop putting words in my mouth simply because you have no good counter. If you could be bothered to read what I did said was that JJ’s choices made it that much *easier* for Rian to sideline Finn. He gave him a possibility where it was safe to do so without too many issues for the overall story.

If JJ had confirmed Finn as Force sensitive and sent him to
Ach-To along with Rey it would have made Rian’s need to sideline Finn
that much harder to follow through with. I’m not saying he wouldn’t have
found a way, I have no illusions at all about Rian Johnson on this
matter, but what I *said* was that JJ made it easy for him.

L.J.: Oh please. You said in your earlier ask (link), and I quote: “Because it’s what JJ, the man you all put
your faith in, set him up for. Look at the end of TFA, there’s nothing
else there for Finn.” You didn’t just say JJ made it easy for RJ to sideline Finn, you said it was what JJ set up. Maybe you didn’t phrase it the way you meant, but you can’t blame me for your bad wording. Besides, you’re confirming yet again in your new series of asks that Finn being sidelined is simply what JJ set him up for, so stop trying to run from that.

And what pray tell is the clear and obvious path forward for
Finn at the end of TFA? Rey is the obvious primary Jedi, she was always
meant as the primary Jedi. At best JJ meant for Finn to play second
fiddle to her. What would likely have happened if JJ had continued the
story? Rey would have been half trained or more at the beginning of VIII
if we have any kind of significant time skip, clearly again marking her
as the primary person to drive the Jedi part of the story forward.

L.J.: So you’re just going to uncritically follow fandom’s assumption that the Jedi is necessarily the main character? Because there’s no way JJ would twist the formula even a little in the THIRD trilogy of the series? It’s fine if you yourself lack imagination, but don’t assume your own narrow vision is the only possible way to proceed.

As for possible ways forward for Finn, oh idk, maybe the difficulty of adjusting to relative freedom and individuality after a lifetime of regimented existence? His process of physical recovery from injuries? Making an actual choice whether he’s going to join the Resistance? Conflict about killing Stormtroopers? Setting up a Stormtrooper rebellion, which RJ actually went as far as to set up before leaving on the cutting room floor? The arduous process of deprogramming? His possible Force sensitivity, how it might differ from traditional Jedi powers, and what that means for the lore?

Wow, it’s almost like there was a lot to do there and you’re the one insisting that being a Jedi is the only way for him to be relevant!

Any training of Finn at this point would definitely have left
him a secondary character in that story. And what would Finn have been
doing in the interim? The ending of TFA gives no clear answer to that.
It lands his unconscious ass with a bunch of people he has never joined
at all. He might have been willing to stand against Kylo for himself and
for Rey, but it never lets him make a decision to join fight against
the FO in a larger sense.

L.J.: You’re identifying a lot of interesting directions Finn’s story could have gone in a better Episode VIII. Kudos.

Even if JJ never intended for Finn to have the Force or become
part of the Jedi related plot then he could have had him awake at Rey’s
departure and made it clear that he was joining the Resistance. Even
such little a thing would have made Finn’s path ahead clearer. But JJ
couldn’t even be bothered with doing that little for Finn. That kind of
lack of concern for a character’s story highly indicates that said
character was never that important anyway to the overall story.

L.J.: Those would only be oversight and neglect if JJ could have expected that the person to come after him would ignore everything he did, and, according to Daisy, throw out most of the outlines JJ prepared for VIII and IX. You assume that JJ shouldn’t have trusted RJ and should have set more things in stone for Finn. In hindsight that would have been far better, but putting his faith in a director who shouldn’t have been trusted is not the same thing as not caring about Finn’s character.

This is why I called Finn A Leia. You need to learn some Star
Wars history. The first Star Wars movie was not at all advertised as
only Luke’s story and while with modern day glasses Leia’s role may look
insignificant, it was a leap for 1977. And it was advertised as Luke’s
and Leia’s story. The Farmboy and the Princess. Everyone expected Leia
to play as large or an even larger part in the next movie once it became
clear that a sequel was being made. Instead that was Han, Leia no
longer mattered

L.J.: So sexism is a potent force in media much like racism is. For that exact reason, I am in NO WAY guaranteeing that JJ will necessarily treat Finn right. I actually agreed with you on that conclusion, but the arguments you make in support of that point are so egregiously bad that you’re actually undermining yourself.

Maybe it would be more accurate to call Finn A Padmé. Padmé
drives the plot in TPM, Anakin being dragged behind in what feels like a
subplot. That changes in the next two movies with Padmé becoming an
entirely insignificant character, only there to get involved with
Anakin, have Luke and Leia, and then die.

Yes I’ve read your Finn and Rey are Padmé and Anakin reborn
metas, they do not fill me with confidence for IX. Padmé was always
secondary to Anakin no matter how much she drove the plot in TPM. In
fact, given the set up in the PT, Padmé is so much more clearly
Palpatine’s foil than any of the others, but the movie keeps emphasizing
Anakin’s relationship with Obi-Wan as being the counterpoint, Padmé is
now only there as angst potential for Anakin and broodmare.

The only difference is that we always knew that the PT was going
to be Anakin’s story, but still many fans were shocked at how
insignificant Padmé’s role and character became.  And given how TFA ends
I fear that that is what JJ always intended for Finn, that this was why
he felt comfortable casting a Black man. KK would still have hated it
because having any character of color that central even for one movie
galls her so I don’t see it as inconsistent with her fighting John’s
casting.

L.J.: I think Padmé is a better comparison so far as TPM/TFA goes, but again–Padmé’s and Finn’s arcs were different in their respective first movies, though their interactions with Anakin/Rey have many similarities. Padmé was much more active in driving the plot than Anakin was and this holds true even in AotC, but she was not shown to be developing as a character and overcoming internal conflicts the way Finn was even in TLJ, clumsily as it was done.

For like the third time, I’m not saying Finn can’t still be sidelined, I’m saying there is nothing inevitable from Finn’s story in TFA or even TLJ that says he will be as distantly secondary/tertiary as Leia or Padmé. I’m saying it would be bad and inconsistent writing if it happens that way, not to mention a huge loss of potential.

And neither John, nor Daisy, nor it seems anyone but JJ and
possibly KK and the story group, knew or will ever know what JJ
intended. At this point I don’t think it was anything much for Finn. My
conclusion is that everyone hates Rian so much at this point they
completely forget how complicit JJ is in this, how much he set of for
the possibility of this happening. And look up his Sam concept, Finn is a
Han type character, roguish smuggler guy, before he becomes a
Stormtrooper.

L.J.: In a medium as collaborative as film people do talk, though, and that gives clues. The people who worked on TFA or the novelization with him, such as Alan, Daisy, and Simon, may not have read JJ’s mind or have gotten his full plans, but they do know the discussions they had at the time and had enough clues to suspect–and what’s more, publicly say–that JJ’s intentions were not fully followed through.

As for your point of all those people objecting to how things
were handled in TLJ, you might want to notice that their points of
objections concern the WHITE characters. Rey, Luke, Leia, these are the
ones whom they are incensed about. Not Finn. Mark being the only one who
stands out even a little by supporting John so openly, but even he
speaks far more about the white characters and their mistreatment than
Finn’s. In fact, I can’t recall him even mentioning Finn directly.

L.J.: Most of them were about the white characters, but Alan Dean Foster directly mentioned Finn as well (link). Yes, he did say Finn was very underdeveloped, but he also directly contradicts your point that Finn’s story had nowhere to go at the end of TFA. In fact, you contradict it yourself. Also my larger point is that RJ directly contradicted existing characters and the setup in TFA to the extent that people who worked with JJ voiced their disagreement, something that extends to Finn as well.

John Boyega himself talked about this underdevelopment and potential of Finn as a feature and not a bug, saying that he prefers characters who have room to develop. Since you know about the earlier concept of Sam, you also no doubt know that Sam was originally much more powered-up and single-handedly solves a lot of problems himself. While that may well have worked better with a Black character, I can see John’s point as well.

If Finn’s potential remains untapped in IX then yeah, fuck JJ and I’m fully prepared for that possibility myself. But no one, including you, can tell me that I and many others simply dreamed up his centrality or his potential in TFA.

Hi, I’m a 17-year-old Asian girl with abusive family. I just want to say that your post about children not owing their parents almost made me cry. It gave me hope and comfort. My Mum berates me nearly each day and makes it seem like wanting to have fun even after I’ve overexerted myself all day is a huge offence. I’m doing crazy well in school; my teachers praise me; she makes me feel worthless and like her supporting me is something I should earn/spend my life repaying. Thank you (from a child)

Oh, hon. You remind me so much of myself at your age. To this day I feel guilty about taking breaks because I was told resting is for people who lack focus and drive. It gives me a lot of hope, though, that you’re able to name your family’s treatment of you as abuse at your age. I couldn’t even bring myself to identify as an abuse victim until late into my 20s, after doing a lot of reading and soul-searching. It makes me happy that young people these days are much quicker about identifying mistreatment for what it is, and that they find help and moral support online. Hopefully you can unfold faster from under your family’s thumb than I did, and that you’ll be left with fewer long-lasting effects. I’m sorry your family situation is so hard, and I wish you all the help, rest, and recovery once you are in a better place.

“You owe your parents” in the best interpretation is “you should be grateful to your parents”. But the thing about gratitude is that you give it freely. It’s not something your parents are entitled to. That said, I’m grateful for my parents. They absolutely deserve my gratitude, and I wish everyone could say the same for their parents. Abusive parents do not deserve anything from their children, least of all their gratitude.

The problem with the language of “oweing” one’s parents is that it’s the language of obligation, not gratitude. You’re very right, in most cases kids are going to be naturally affectionate and grateful to parents who were dutiful, loving and caring. In my experience it takes a lot of mistreatment and alienation over many years to sever kids from the natural love and gratitude they feel for parents who loved them, in their own way, and sacrified for them.

Parental alienation is a terribly sad and wasteful process–I didn’t want to reduce contact with my dad, I didn’t want to look back in regret at everything we had shared, I wanted him to be in my son’s life far more than he is. I had to do it, very painfully and regretfully, after at least two decades of the whole family telling him how badly his controlling behavior and explosive temper were affecting the family, to little effect. I decided to draw firmer boundaries for my well-being and that of my child’s.

I remember how I carried my son out of his own 100th-day celebration because my dad had thrown a spoon and was shouting at us over politics. (It was a tense time politically what with the impeachment and all, but WTF?! Who even brings up current politics over their grandchildren’s milestone celebration meal, never mind throws a tantrum when he doesn’t like the answers?) That’s when I realized that being a grandfather had not changed him and he was not a healthy person to be around, not for me and certainly not for my child. I don’t want my son to think that being terrorized by someone he loves is normal or right. I’m breaking that cycle with me.

So no, I don’t accept the language of “oweing” and obligation because it is not the same thing as gratitude, spontaneously and warmly felt. “Oweing” is the dry dreg left behind after gratitude has been boiled away by unjust treatment. Sure, they can be used interchangeably–people say “I owe you one” as an expression of gratitude, and people who don’t accept a moral obligation are called ungrateful. (My dad @ me, like, uncountable times.) It’s all in who’s saying it, though: “You owe me” is a very different statement from “I owe you.” People can take on a sense of obligation from a sense of gratitude, but trying to impose obligation and gratitude on children never works.

Concept: a stormtrooper in Finn’s division, played by Ansel Elgort, named FN-1217 “Brick”. He’s a captain for some reason even though his entire list of tactics is “do something they won’t expect, even and especially if that’s because it’s stupid.” Half the corps praise him and half despise him, and for some inexplicable reason Phasma is on the first half. He got his nickname from his intelligence level. He’s gay for Kylo Ren

He despises Finn and threatens to put him in a coma, so no wonder Phasma loves him.

I can’t help wondering if the bait and switch Finn suffered from in tfa was something JJ wrote when Finn was ‘Sam’ the white guy (because Kyle expecting to fight this white guy and the lightsaber going to a woman would seem more progressive) and then didn’t realize the implications it carried when ‘Sam’ became Finn. LF didn’t pick up on all the racism in tlj so if JJ dropped the ball no one else there would have picked it up

It’s one of the pitfalls of so-called colorblind writing. Any kind of fiction interacts with the audience’s expectations and biases, and audiences live in a racist world. I just hope JJ cleans up his mess in IX.

Re: TFA. The best explanation I heard and I don’t remember if it was from DHF or someone else who writes regularly about racism and fandom was that JJ Abrams as a liberal white didn’t get that a storyline that would have been fine for a white character does not work for a black character. No one would be shitting on Finn or saying he was peripheral if he were white, so the subversion at the end of TFA would have been ok overall. It needed to change when John was cast and it wasn’t.

I don’t think Finn fans should put any trust in IX. It will
treat him better than TLJ but that’s only because TLJ buried the bar
under the ground. JJ was the one who pulled the rug and left him in the
dirt giving Rian the option to safely ignore him. JJ was the one who
forced Rey into Kylo’s path and made her his foil, so that Finn could be
sidelined when there was the natural choice. I don’t think we’ll see
Bendemtion, but Rey will be the one who shines in IX and Finn is
sidelined completely.

Why do I think this? Because it’s what JJ, the man you all put
your faith in, set him up for. Look at the end of TFA, there’s nothing
else there for Finn. his story has no clear progression but is left
hanging like some appendix they can deal with in whatever way, there is
no clear progression. Rey is set up on Kylo’s path and she’ll be the one
to ultimately take him down. Finn might get to be a bit of a hero in
the Resistance part but he’ll still be secondary to Rey.

JJ set up Finn to be A Leia in the ST. He’s plot relevant in the
first movie and drives it forward and then he’s dumped because the real
hero, Rey, has stepped up. So if you ask me Finn fans should get out
while they can and before it hurt to much. If they’re looking for
another major scifi franchise with a Black lead Discovery season 2 looks
promising after they showed the latest trailer and there’s a lot of
others out there. But don’t bother with Star Wars, it won’t treat Finn
well.

Finn being sidelined is a possibility every fan should be prepared for, obviously. I don’t want to tell anyone to get their hopes up for JJ or IX, and I encourage people to disengage from SW if that’s what they need to do.

That said, I disagree with the arguments there. For one thing, I don’t think Rey was made to be Kylo’s foil–it’s clearly Finn who’s been set up as Kylo’s opposite in every way. Foil does not mean simply an enemy, it’s a specific literary term for a character that contrasts with another character. The foil relationship between Finn and Kylo continued even in TLJ. If Rey was set up to be anyone’s foil it was Luke in TLJ far more than Kylo.

For another, Finn’s story was not directionless at the end of TFA. You might as well say Luke’s story had nowhere to go at the end of ANH because his arc was complete. Comparing him to Leia is plain inaccurate when Leia did not have a protagonist’s arc or hero’s journey in ANH like Finn had in TFA. Luke had the hero’s journey in ANH, and Leia was in charge of his call to action. It wasn’t a case of Leia stepping aside for Luke, it was Luke’s story from the start that Leia had a role in.

It’s also disingenuous to validate RJ’s writing choices as flowing organically from JJ’s when multiple people involved with TFA and the franchise–Mark Hamill, Alan Dean Foster, John Williams, and Simon Pegg just off the top of my head–have publicly voiced doubts and disagreements with different aspects of what RJ did.

I was wondering why I couldn’t get past the first season. I couldn’t put my finger on why it was inferior to ATLA, but I just didn’t like it as much. I thought it might have been the steampunk thing that was putting me off, but I actually thought the technological advancements were interesting, so I knew in the back of my head it was something else.

If you’re looking for more validation, see also this critical video by Lily Orchard (link). It’s a 1.5 hour vid but I linked a time stamp that has a minute-long rundown of the main points. If you have enough interest, time, and vitriol I recommend the full thing, I found it interesting and illuminating.