Like R*ylos are like “Why do you spend so much time hating a ship” yet they dedicate so much time and energy to slandering Finn who has done literally nothing to warrant any slander.
Right there ^
One of the reasons the idea of “TLJ is good because it was subversive” bothers me is because the prequels were more subversive and that doesn’t give them a free pass for their racism and moments of bad writing in media discussion.
Japanese stereotypes used in Neimodians, cultural dressing slapped across Naboo, and Watto all deserve to be criticized, and they are. But a lot of “liberal” fans of TLJ will explain away any claims of racism as reaching and any claims of bad writing as whiny fanboys. Yet for every point of subversion that TLJ tries, the prequels do it better.
TLJ: Luke throws away the lightsaber when we expect him to do something proactive.
Prequels: Supposedly peaceful Jedi are violent in the first scene.
TLJ: OT Sad Yoda became carefree after death.
Prequels: OT Pacifist Yoda wasn’t always a pacifist. (I’ve seen so many people complain that Yoda is a different character in AoTC, ignoring that he becomes the hideaway after RoTS.)
TLJ: Rey’s parents are nobodies.
Prequels: The origins of fan favorite Obi-Wan Kenobi don’t bother with his parentage, as it’s unimportant.
TLJ: Luke was willing to kill his nephew to prevent a massacre.
Prequels: The Republic, expected to be good compared to the Empire, was willing to utilize a slave army to win a war.
TLJ: You can’t trust criminals and terrorists after all, but military secrets are good.
Prequels: The Jedi weren’t guardians of peace, but mongers of war.
Subversion doesn’t equal quality, and weak subversions aren’t even worth getting excited about. (Moth)
from being stuck in comedic roles. One of my act bf teachers
knows Wesley snipes personally and said he wanted to do lighter romcom
type stuff but he was told he was too short and too dark and after Jack
City he was sort of typecast. Oscar Isaac is short but he is also
racially ambiguous in a way that white women are into. They can
fantasize about sexing an “exotic Latin hunk” without feeling shame or
guilt. MBJ is 6 foot tall and the new black it guy, the guy white women
aren’t afraid (2)
or ashamed to tell their friends they’d sleep with. John is
handsome but he’s also under 6 feet and has a wide nose and full lips,
so he’s not ambiguous. If he were taller trust me he’d be getting more
roles. If Finn and Rey do not have a romance John might find it hard to
break out of the category of “not a romantic lead.” He’s never had a
role where he was openly sexual or romantic with a woman. His one role
that was going to do that, The Circle, cut it out (3)
Which is a sign that they thought they couldn’t sell it in the
movie. If Rey is placed with Kylo or wit Poe romantically, casting
directors are not going to change their minds about John. I like him and
his acting but he is heading toward a career like Jeffrey Wright,
nothing at all to be ashamed of but never the love interest, always the
Professor/good friend/helpmate. See also Anthony Mackie, a Juilliard
grad, and a perpetual second banana/non love interest (4)
So in short it’s not that women don’t find John attractive it’s
that it’s widely believed white women won’t look at him the way they
look at men like Oscar and MBJ. I have no idea why he didn’t make
himself the love interest in PAC Rim 2, Eastwood is a flop. Anyway,
sorry for all the messages but I wanted to explain myself more fully.
Thanks, take care.
L.J.: Thank you for coming back, and for the in-depth explanation! Personally I never thought you were being racist, just describing racist preferences in a frank and straightforward way. That’s a very sobering assessment of John’s career prospects, and I lean toward thinking you’re right; if he isn’t established as the romantic lead in the biggest break of his career, the chances of it happening later are dim. I think John is aware of that, too; he’s always been unsentimental and clear-eyed about his career. He has recently been very public and clear about his support for Finnrey and has pushed back at the “friendzone” commenters, so I think he’s thinking along similar lines.
Fortunately Daisy has publicly shut both reylow and doomerey down, but in response to the doomerey question she also said she preferred no romance. It’s pretty telling in itself, though, that she was asked about Kylo and Poe and not Finn as romantic prospects, isn’t it? Not to mention the cringeworthy sexism in asking hertwo questions in a row (first Kylo, then Poe) about her character’s prospective romances. This interview was in China, too, which is obviously not a white-majority country but has many the same racist preferences and is a crucial movie market.
I mean. You don’t have to be an actor or know movie stars to know colorism is huge in Hollywood. Anon, you being Black, you know it’s a big thing in the Black community, too, and that doesn’t make it acceptable.
But look, it’s 2018. Danai Gurira is a romantic lead on The Walking Dead, a top TV show, and she doesn’t fit the mold of the romantic lead as a darkskin woman, even when you include Black niche media. Things actually are changing – way too slow, but Richonne was unheard of for a popular show even when it happened. To say John Boyega isn’t romantic lead material is like saying the standards from 20 years ago are OK. Wesley Snipes and Jeffrey Wright are in their 50s, and Will Smith is 49. A whole generation older than Boyega, why should we expect the same treatment for him in 2018?
Talking about Hollywood standards, funny how they don’t apply to white actors when it comes to romantic roles. The height thing doesn’t apply to white actors – Tom Cruise alone is proof of that. Actors with white skin can be short, overweight and/or “unconventionally” looking. Jack Black, Jonah Hill and Ben Stiller have all had romantic roles. Hell, Adam Driver is lauded as being “unconventionally” attractive. But with John his dark skin and features – which are not even “unconventional,” he has the same symmetry of features as Denzel Washington, Hollywood’s “chosen one” Black sex symbol – it’s a step too far.
Hollywood is still racist – we all know that. But to suggest that John today and Wesley in the ‘90s are the same is to suggest that change isn’t even possible. I don’t believe that. I know full well that colorism is a thing, but I also know that we’re not exactly where we were 20-30 years ago. YES, fans will have a major problem with it if Finn and Rey end up together – NO DOUBT. But at some point, they have to have the guts to make those choice and stop normalizing white supremacy. Hollywood helped to build modern white supremacy – telling us that everything before the 1960s was all white (other than slaves, of course) – they have a responsibility to dismantle it. Or at least try.
We’re living in a time when popular art matters. It is very much not the time to hold on to the racist standards of the past.
Screw writing “strong” women. Write interesting women. Write well-rounded women. Write complicated women. Write a woman who kicks ass, write a woman who cowers in a corner. Write a woman who’s desperate for a husband. Write a woman who doesn’t need a man. Write women who cry, women who rant, women who are shy, women who don’t take no shit, women who need validation and women who don’t care what anybody thinks. THEY ARE ALL OKAY, and all those things could exist in THE SAME WOMAN. Women shouldn’t be valued because we are strong, or kick-ass, but because we are people. So don’t focus on writing characters who are strong. Write characters who are people. (x)
Personally I don’t see why Rey’s parentage would need to be addressed again. Rey was old enough when left to have memories of her parents and Kylo pulled those memories from her mind thanks to the Force Skype connection. End of story.
Is it a good explanation? Maybe not, but it’s no worse than so much other in Star Wars’ history. Does it cover everything? No, but again that’s an old Star Wars tradition harking all the way back to ESB.
And even RJ doesn’t stand by Rey Random, saying it was what worked in the moment rather than the last word. I can see why ReySky still has currency, but after the way Rey and Luke parted I’d rather have Rey be a Solo if she HAS to be from the Skywalker line. At least she had positive interactions with both Han and Leia, and I’m always up for Reylow tears. It seems quite a few members of the audience left theaters believing Rey and Kylo are siblings, too.
That said, I still like Rey Random better because it sets up a nice opposing dichotomy with Kyle, the elitist neo-Nazi. If Rey was meant to be a Skywalker or Solo I believe the best time for that revelation, which was in Episode VIII, has passed. Plus I’m tired of how Rey’s parentage gets so much speculation and Finn’s almost none, and would find it sweet if it’s Finn who gets the parentage reveal in IX and not Rey.
“I know what JJ kind of intended or at least was being chucked around. I think that’s kind of been undone slightly by the last one. There was some talk of a relevant lineage for her.”
Errr, pardon me but to my ears taht doesn’t sound like a hardline confirmation. Also, “relevant lineage” covers a hell of a lot of ground.
Finally, a Reysky or even Reysol retcon in EpIX would take up the majority of the movie and completely sideline Finn’s story as most of it would have to be about Rey getting to terms with her family (and how shittily they’ve all treated her) so I really do not want to see it happen.
So at this point I have some real issues with the people who argue that this must be retconned, because that will inevitably be to the detriment of Finn’s story. (And also funny how this crowd never considers that Finn might be the Skywalker.)
Reblogging myself because I have one thing to add.
What would being a Skywalker or a Solo add to Rey’s story at this point? Rey’s character and storyline was never about legacy, it was about having people who loved her and who cared about her. So far the only one of the OT trio she’s got that from remotely is Han, but he’s dead and can contribute nothing further to her progression except one more absent dad with no ability to explain why she was dumped on Jakku.
Luke is dead and treated her deplorably – he had his reasons but that doesn’t change anything for Rey – and Leia is gone too and the two of them barely interacted.
With the OT trio gone Rey cannot be offered what her character wants – love and care – from being a Skywalker or a Solo. It gives her character nothing at all and at this point is really just the determination of some really stubborn fans that can’t handle that a) the Skywalker legacy may be passed on by deed rather than bloodline (talk about some destructing mentality here that blood weighs more than deeds and choices) and b) that the legacy if continued by blood must be kept white (aggressively points to Finn who is also without family at this point and to who’s character being a Skywalker would actually contribute something contrary to Rey).
Rey Skywalker or Rey Solo could have worked if done in TLJ while two thirds of the trio still alive and two whole movies to build a relationship between Rey and her family, and deal with that. Now, that boat has sailed unless people are happy to see Finn sidelined yet again for a storyline that would offer the white character nothing important to her, but merely make the Skywalker bloodline rule by divine supremacy again and keep it acceptably white.
rian johnson’s assertions that kylo is meant to be seen as “relatable” and going through the trials of adolescence (despite being 30 years old and having become what he is around the age of 25), along with him labeling kylo and rey as “two halves of the protagonist”(not only erasing finn as the co-lead of the new trilogy, but insinuating that kylo is equally as sympathetic as rey) are incredibly disturbing to me because painting a violent, abusive, actually fascist white man well into his adulthood as someone that children can connect with is horrifying and the last thing we need right now given the state of things
I think what reylos fail to realise is that we don’t dislike the shippers because they ship it. We dislike shippers because they entirely misrepresent the ship itself, as well as the movies as a whole.
I, and many people that I’ve spoken to, hold all content to a pretty simple standard: It’s okay to like problematic content. It’s perfectly okay to enjoy media that contains iffy, or even outright offensive, elements – so long as you recognise that those elements exist and are an issue. Be critical of the media you consume, accept that it’s flawed, but don’t think that those problems mean you have to dislike the content.
Take the Star Wars prequels. I love the prequels, but it’s important to recognise the problems it has in terms of racist caricaturing, antisemitism, and the misogynistic way in which Padmé’s story is handled. The same goes for the original trilogy, to an extent – particularly how Jabba is a caricature of Middle Eastern sultans, and the Tusken Raiders are quite heavily islamophobic. And the sequel trilogy, particularly the antiblackness evident in the way Finn is written. These are all hugely important factors to consider when discussing the franchise, but that doesn’t mean you’re not allowed to enjoy the movies. That’s not to say you have to be loudly and consistently vocal about these issues – some people don’t have the time or the energy to do so, some people don’t know how to express it, some people prefer to keep their blogs (and lives) free of discourse and drama. We aren’t expecting everyone to write essay-length meta on how Star Wars is racist, we aren’t expecting the entire fandom to engage in discourse to the same degree, we just think it’s crucial to recognise that the content you enjoy isn’t squeaky clean and problem-free. When you say “I love Star Wars” we don’t expect you to tack “(even though it’s problematic!)” onto the end, but we hope that you accept that it’s problematic.
But this attitude (which is not specific to the Star Wars fandom, obviously) of viewing content in a critical and socially nuanced way is a relatively low bar that most people don’t struggle to meet. If someone told me they loved Star Wars, and I were to go, “Ah, but it’s antisemitic! Remember Watto?” chances are they’d respond with something along the lines of, “Yeah, that’s true. I know that. I still love the films though.” And that’s fine. That’s my stance! I love it despite that too! If I were to tell them that they shouldn’t enjoy their favourite film franchise because of that, they’d likely be outraged, or at least relatively annoyed, and justifiably so. As long as you acknowledge the problems, enjoy away. No one is stopping you from enjoying it or judging you for doing so. You should enjoy content whilst acknowledging its problems. Not by ignoring them, or defending them. And not by misrepresenting them.
That’s why, even if we have a problem with reylo on a fundamental level, most antis don’t automatically dislike the shippers. When we point out that reylo is abusive, we aren’t saying that shippers condone abuse. When we say that Rey’s interrogation scene is a rape parallel (Side note: to those reylos saying we shouldn’t throw the word “rape” around willy nilly and use it where we shouldn’t, we aren’t saying that scene is literally mind rape, we’re saying that the scene is very deliberately mirroring the power dynamics, behaviours, and emotions associated with sexual assault), we aren’t calling reylo shippers rape apologists. Because we know what nuance is. I haven’t seen any evidence of this myself personally, but I’m sure that plenty of reylo shippers realise that it’s abusive and are mindful of that. I’m sure plenty of reylos don’t expect – or even want – it to become canon, and quietly indulge in fan art or fanfiction or whatever the hell else whilst also accepting that it’s a problematic ship. When we point out that it’s abusive (and racist in many respects) we aren’t condemning shippers. It isn’t intended to make people feel guilty or evil for shipping it. It’s intended to raise an important issue which some people, especially shippers themselves (and particularly socially ignorant or uncritical ones), may not have considered. It’s giving reylos an opportunity to view their ship in a more nuanced and critical way, and reach their own conclusions based on that. Maybe some reylos will stop shipping it when they realise it’s abusive. Maybe some will realise that it is, and continue to ship it, whilst also bearing that element in mind and viewing the reylo content they consume in a different way. Many (and this is what I’ve seen from every reylo on this website so far) will completely disregard the abuse and the racism, pretend it’s not a problem whatsoever, continue shipping it, continue expecting it to become canon, and continue wanting to see it play out in the movies. It’s important to hold fandom ships to the same standard as any other element of the media they stem from – enjoy it all you want, but acknowledge the problems with it. Don’t ignore, defend, or misrepresent the problematic elements.
But like I said, I’ve seen fucking none of that in the fandom myself, and I’ve been heavily involved in the Star Wars Tumblr fandom since a little before TFA was announced. And that’s not to say that I’m an authority on the fandom or that I know the thoughts and feelings of every reylo. But in the three and a half years that I’ve been a Star Wars blog, all I’ve seen is people either, A: flat-out claiming that reylo isn’t abusive at all, which serves to both ignore and misrepresent the very much intentional abuse parallels that are present right there on screen (and this is especially true for those reylos who make entire posts about how that one bit of eye contact or a slight smirk mean that his abusive behaviour is actually super duper lovey dovey romance), or B: defending the abuse itself, mostly blaming it on Kylo’s “mental illnesses” and saying he himself is a “victim of abuse” and a barrage of other weak excuses, many of which are ableist. It even goes as far as blatantly misrepresenting parts of the movies which have nothing to do with reylo (like Han’s death, or Kylo’s interactions with Snoke) to suit their ship. And this includes either photoshopping Finn out of scenes he shares with Rey, or whitewashing the ever-living fuck out of him, in order to literally replace him with Kylo. That’s fucked, my dudes.
Accepting content as problematic but enjoying it nonetheless only works if you take the content as it is presented to you, without manipulating or misrepresenting it. There would be far fewer anti-reylos if reylo shippers weren’t either lying about, or deliberately misunderstanding, the films. Bear in mind, anti-reylo doesn’t mean anti-shipper. I, and many others I imagine, don’t give a fuck if you ship it so long as you see it for what it isand are mindful of its problems. We’re only anti-shipper when the shippers themselves fail to meet a very low fucking standard which most people succeed at meeting. And most or all of the shippers I’ve seen fail to meet that standard, which makes me anti-them.
Ship it if you want. If you acknowledge its problems and ship it through a socially aware and nuanced lens whilst also seeing it for what it is, and as long as you keep yourself to yourself and quietly ship it without disrupting the fandom proper and starting needless drama, I have no beef with you. But if you go to dramatic lengths to distort and defend blatant verbal and physical abuse, and racist misrepresentations of the content of the films, or if you completely disregard all the iffy elements of the ship and get angry when people level even so much as mild criticism against reylo, then you can – with all due respect – go fuck yourself.
Perhaps it’s unfair for us to expect everyone to hold content interaction to the same standard that we do. Perhaps it’s unfair to expect people to be critical and nuanced when it comes to media consumption. But given that it’s a standard held and met by almost all reputable content analysis outlets, it doesn’t seem all that unfair.
L.J.'s Obsessions 