If JJ had confirmed Finn as Force sensitive and sent him to
Ach-To along with Rey it would have made Rian’s need to sideline Finn
that much harder to follow through with. I’m not saying he wouldn’t have
found a way, I have no illusions at all about Rian Johnson on this
matter, but what I *said* was that JJ made it easy for him.
L.J.: Oh please. You said in your earlier ask (link), and I quote: “Because it’s what JJ, the man you all put
your faith in, set him up for. Look at the end of TFA, there’s nothing
else there for Finn.” You didn’t just say JJ made it easy for RJ to sideline Finn, you said it was what JJ set up. Maybe you didn’t phrase it the way you meant, but you can’t blame me for your bad wording. Besides, you’re confirming yet again in your new series of asks that Finn being sidelined is simply what JJ set him up for, so stop trying to run from that.
And what pray tell is the clear and obvious path forward for
Finn at the end of TFA? Rey is the obvious primary Jedi, she was always
meant as the primary Jedi. At best JJ meant for Finn to play second
fiddle to her. What would likely have happened if JJ had continued the
story? Rey would have been half trained or more at the beginning of VIII
if we have any kind of significant time skip, clearly again marking her
as the primary person to drive the Jedi part of the story forward.
L.J.: So you’re just going to uncritically follow fandom’s assumption that the Jedi is necessarily the main character? Because there’s no way JJ would twist the formula even a little in the THIRD trilogy of the series? It’s fine if you yourself lack imagination, but don’t assume your own narrow vision is the only possible way to proceed.
As for possible ways forward for Finn, oh idk, maybe the difficulty of adjusting to relative freedom and individuality after a lifetime of regimented existence? His process of physical recovery from injuries? Making an actual choice whether he’s going to join the Resistance? Conflict about killing Stormtroopers? Setting up a Stormtrooper rebellion, which RJ actually went as far as to set up before leaving on the cutting room floor? The arduous process of deprogramming? His possible Force sensitivity, how it might differ from traditional Jedi powers, and what that means for the lore?
Wow, it’s almost like there was a lot to do there and you’re the one insisting that being a Jedi is the only way for him to be relevant!
Any training of Finn at this point would definitely have left
him a secondary character in that story. And what would Finn have been
doing in the interim? The ending of TFA gives no clear answer to that.
It lands his unconscious ass with a bunch of people he has never joined
at all. He might have been willing to stand against Kylo for himself and
for Rey, but it never lets him make a decision to join fight against
the FO in a larger sense.
L.J.: You’re identifying a lot of interesting directions Finn’s story could have gone in a better Episode VIII. Kudos.
Even if JJ never intended for Finn to have the Force or become
part of the Jedi related plot then he could have had him awake at Rey’s
departure and made it clear that he was joining the Resistance. Even
such little a thing would have made Finn’s path ahead clearer. But JJ
couldn’t even be bothered with doing that little for Finn. That kind of
lack of concern for a character’s story highly indicates that said
character was never that important anyway to the overall story.
L.J.: Those would only be oversight and neglect if JJ could have expected that the person to come after him would ignore everything he did, and, according to Daisy, throw out most of the outlines JJ prepared for VIII and IX. You assume that JJ shouldn’t have trusted RJ and should have set more things in stone for Finn. In hindsight that would have been far better, but putting his faith in a director who shouldn’t have been trusted is not the same thing as not caring about Finn’s character.
This is why I called Finn A Leia. You need to learn some Star
Wars history. The first Star Wars movie was not at all advertised as
only Luke’s story and while with modern day glasses Leia’s role may look
insignificant, it was a leap for 1977. And it was advertised as Luke’s
and Leia’s story. The Farmboy and the Princess. Everyone expected Leia
to play as large or an even larger part in the next movie once it became
clear that a sequel was being made. Instead that was Han, Leia no
longer mattered
L.J.: So sexism is a potent force in media much like racism is. For that exact reason, I am in NO WAY guaranteeing that JJ will necessarily treat Finn right. I actually agreed with you on that conclusion, but the arguments you make in support of that point are so egregiously bad that you’re actually undermining yourself.
Maybe it would be more accurate to call Finn A Padmé. Padmé
drives the plot in TPM, Anakin being dragged behind in what feels like a
subplot. That changes in the next two movies with Padmé becoming an
entirely insignificant character, only there to get involved with
Anakin, have Luke and Leia, and then die.
Yes I’ve read your Finn and Rey are Padmé and Anakin reborn
metas, they do not fill me with confidence for IX. Padmé was always
secondary to Anakin no matter how much she drove the plot in TPM. In
fact, given the set up in the PT, Padmé is so much more clearly
Palpatine’s foil than any of the others, but the movie keeps emphasizing
Anakin’s relationship with Obi-Wan as being the counterpoint, Padmé is
now only there as angst potential for Anakin and broodmare.
The only difference is that we always knew that the PT was going
to be Anakin’s story, but still many fans were shocked at how
insignificant Padmé’s role and character became. And given how TFA ends
I fear that that is what JJ always intended for Finn, that this was why
he felt comfortable casting a Black man. KK would still have hated it
because having any character of color that central even for one movie
galls her so I don’t see it as inconsistent with her fighting John’s
casting.
L.J.: I think Padmé is a better comparison so far as TPM/TFA goes, but again–Padmé’s and Finn’s arcs were different in their respective first movies, though their interactions with Anakin/Rey have many similarities. Padmé was much more active in driving the plot than Anakin was and this holds true even in AotC, but she was not shown to be developing as a character and overcoming internal conflicts the way Finn was even in TLJ, clumsily as it was done.
For like the third time, I’m not saying Finn can’t still be sidelined, I’m saying there is nothing inevitable from Finn’s story in TFA or even TLJ that says he will be as distantly secondary/tertiary as Leia or Padmé. I’m saying it would be bad and inconsistent writing if it happens that way, not to mention a huge loss of potential.
And neither John, nor Daisy, nor it seems anyone but JJ and
possibly KK and the story group, knew or will ever know what JJ
intended. At this point I don’t think it was anything much for Finn. My
conclusion is that everyone hates Rian so much at this point they
completely forget how complicit JJ is in this, how much he set of for
the possibility of this happening. And look up his Sam concept, Finn is a
Han type character, roguish smuggler guy, before he becomes a
Stormtrooper.
L.J.: In a medium as collaborative as film people do talk, though, and that gives clues. The people who worked on TFA or the novelization with him, such as Alan, Daisy, and Simon, may not have read JJ’s mind or have gotten his full plans, but they do know the discussions they had at the time and had enough clues to suspect–and what’s more, publicly say–that JJ’s intentions were not fully followed through.
As for your point of all those people objecting to how things
were handled in TLJ, you might want to notice that their points of
objections concern the WHITE characters. Rey, Luke, Leia, these are the
ones whom they are incensed about. Not Finn. Mark being the only one who
stands out even a little by supporting John so openly, but even he
speaks far more about the white characters and their mistreatment than
Finn’s. In fact, I can’t recall him even mentioning Finn directly.
L.J.: Most of them were about the white characters, but Alan Dean Foster directly mentioned Finn as well (link). Yes, he did say Finn was very underdeveloped, but he also directly contradicts your point that Finn’s story had nowhere to go at the end of TFA. In fact, you contradict it yourself. Also my larger point is that RJ directly contradicted existing characters and the setup in TFA to the extent that people who worked with JJ voiced their disagreement, something that extends to Finn as well.
John Boyega himself talked about this underdevelopment and potential of Finn as a feature and not a bug, saying that he prefers characters who have room to develop. Since you know about the earlier concept of Sam, you also no doubt know that Sam was originally much more powered-up and single-handedly solves a lot of problems himself. While that may well have worked better with a Black character, I can see John’s point as well.
If Finn’s potential remains untapped in IX then yeah, fuck JJ and I’m fully prepared for that possibility myself. But no one, including you, can tell me that I and many others simply dreamed up his centrality or his potential in TFA.
Beyond that, Anon seems to forget that JJ wasn’t the only writer. Michael Arndt and Lawrence Kasdan were also writers, and unlike Johnson who claimed he had UNLIMITED POWER, JJ talked about in detail how many other chefs were in the kitchen and we don’t know how many things were changed in re shoots. I’m not going to pretend to have a crystal ball and know everything, but regardless of the lightsaber bait and switch elements that screamed re-shoot plot holes, Finn’s story still clearly left him as the male lead.
TFA ends more like The Empire Strikes with Rey leaving to train and Finn suffering with the events of the movie.
And what really bothers me about Anon is how they keep talking about SW history and comparing Finn to Leia. If anyone is the Leia, it’s Poe. Finn is closer to the young Obi-Wan role in the prequels mixed with the Han Solo in the originals. At worst Finn is the deuteragonist like Han Solo, at best he’s the co-protagonist like Obi-Wan.
I might not work for lucasfilm, but I understand story structure and what would make a compelling story.
Here’s a short list of where Finn’s story could go in IX.
If people don’t have they’re own imagination, they’re fine to listen to Reddit. If JJ just dubs Finn, yeah fuck him, and I’ll go to The Mandalorian with Jon Favreau, but let’s wait and see for fucks sake.
L.J.'s Obsessions 