I didn’t know Indiana Jones was by Jewish creators, that’s good to know! I wasn’t presenting these movies as examples of claimed goyische ownership of Nazi/Holocaust imagery, though Triumph of the Will would certainly count in that category. I was pointing out that no movie, outside of maybe rigorous academic documentaries, can meet the precise academic standard some fans demand of Star Wars for the FO to be “true” Nazis. Not even, or maybe especially,Triumph of the Will, which depicts actual real-life Nazi officials including Hitler. My point was that the portrayals of Nazis real and fictional has always been partial; even Triumph showed only the parts the Nazis themselves wanted you to see. Why demand such an unrealistically high standard for historical realism of Star Wars, a space action flick? Doesn’t that seem to be aimed at delegitimizing the use of Nazi and Holocaust imagery by a Jewish creator to depict some of the horror and trauma experienced by Jewish people?
I highly doubt it, especially with JJ at the helm. @jewishcomeradebot has made the case that JJ isn’t as disgusting a misogynist as the Jurassic guy (or RJ, in my opinion), is actually capable of keeping characters consistent, and won’t go the route of making a space neo-Nazi a secret good guy/the romantic lead. I would also like to add:
1. JJ actually listens to his actors, unlike PT-era (and arguably this started even in the OT) Lucas after he got a bloated head, or RJ who, with far less reason, fancies himself a creative genius whose vision cannot be improved upon. JJ gave us a living Poe based on Oscar’s request, and he changed Finn and Rey’s whole dynamic based on John and Daisy’s chemistry. We know Daisy has spoken against Reylow and John is sick of the racist “friendzone” bullshit. Even if JJ himself were inclined toward Reylow, which I doubt, he is unlikely to bulldoze over their objections.
2. We know JJ fought to cast John as Finn and that he is passionate about Finn’s character as RJ never was. I may not agree with everything JJ did with Finn in TFA, but Finn was the undisputed male lead of TFA and JJ is not going to sideline him like RJ did.
3. Finn and Rey are going to be together again in EpIX, something that made Daisy ecstatic much as she was devastated when she learned they would be apart in TLJ. John was not as open about being upset, but we know he watched her on set whenever he could just to let her know he was there. Canon reylow proponents were salty about Rey and Finn spending more time together in IX and they have good reason to be, because there’s a huge amount of revisionism development that has to happen for canon Reylow in IX which is unlikely to take place if Rey is spending most of her time with Finn. This is a major reason canon Reylow sidelines Finn–it necessitates he get less screen time and story importance in favor of Kylo fucking Ren.
4. John is acting excited about SW again. He has the confidence to publicly say he ships Finnrey, he has a JediStormPilot banner on his Twitter, he’s been talking about EpIX like he actually looks forward to it. I doubt he would be pumped about EpIX and SW again if this were another movie where he plays second, no scratch that, fourth or fifth fiddle to a mass-murdering space neo-Nazi.
5. If the rumors of KK’s long-overdue departure are true (pls God), that gives me even more hope because we know she’s the one who fought John’s casting, has a creepy fixation on Driver, and casts a white British brunette in every fucking thing. With her gone there would be even less impetus for canon reylow than there is now, but even aside from that I just want her gone on principle.
Nothing is set in stone but what we know of the story, characters, the creators, and the production so far all point toward reylow not happening. If JJ/LF still decide to do it they can, of course, but if the reaction to TLJ is any indication they’ll be throwing the franchise into the toilet with that decision.
There’s also the fact that TLJ didn’t live up to financial expectations with multiple viewings and Blu Ray/digital. RJ can blame it on manbaby trolls, but in the boardroom, you better believe they’re looking at every possible reason, especially with Solo’s subsequent underperformance.
What’s one thing the successful TFA had that TLJ didn’t? Rey and Finn together. Which also happens to be the first thing LF allowed to come out via John about epIX (and there’s been no dialback a la Mark and JJ when they’ve said “unapproved” things).
I’m not as convinced as others that RJ was going for a reylo endgame (was he playing with the idea? For sure). Kylo didn’t come off as a guy worthy of her sympathy in the end. It was manipulation. Maybe I give RJ too much credit, but that’s what I saw. So I don’t personally think canon reylo has anything going for it. Under JJ, after the TLJ backlash? Very unlikely. I can see a possible kylo redemption (again, via Leia one way or another), but a happy ending with Rey? Even TLJ didn’t set that up in canon.
If centering Kylo had made the “manbabies” as happy as it made reylo shippers and that resulted in a wildly financially successful film next to TFA I might be more worried. It’s all about the bottom line. The overt racist are already out and not coming back. No reason in the world to pander to them by making Kylo the “real protagonist.”
TLJ defenders like to point out that it still made money, but Hollywood would have long gotten out of the sequel business if it were normal for sequels to underperform their predecessors by 40%. Initial Blu Ray sales are, what, half of TFA’s during the same period? This will be the second year in a row, with TLJ and now Solo, that SW becomes a loss for Disney in terms of opportunity costs–i.e. Disney would have done better to put their 4 billion in the stock market than invest it in a galaxy far, far away. Obviously some kind of change is in order, and it’s clear that the wheels, already shaky during RO’s production, came off with TLJ. TFA evidently had a trouble free production and launch, but after watching LF and Kennedy in action I’ve come to think TFA was all on JJ/Bad Robot Productions and LF really is that troubled an organization. Part of that is structural, because they seem to be pressured to put out far too many movies without adequate time for conception and development. Whatever my issues with Kennedy she is a veteran producer with a lot of hits to her name, and while I want her to step down I also can’t help but wonder, if someone with experience like hers couldn’t hack it–who can?
But yeah, whatever the hell is going on in LF it’s clear Reylowbait is not the moneymaker shippers claim it is. I agree with you that’s all it was, bait, and Making Star Wars About White Guys Again turned out not to be a viable strategy.
Why is it that when a goy uses Nazi imagery for fictional villains as a short hand for Evil Bad Guys ™ or just for the Aesthetics ™ no one, literally not one of you goyische assholes ever went:
divorcing the Nazi Party and its supporters from its historical/cultural context in that way can be seen as trivialising the very real horrors committed leading up to/during WW2
Can you answer me that?
And yet when a Jewish person dares to make the analogy not just visually undeniable, but trying to do in-universe justice to the parallel, to show exactly the kind of horrors these people committed, this is exactly what you all will say in some version.
None of you are even remotely subtle at this point. We – Jewish people – are only acceptable as long as we let goyim appropriate our trauma and the Aesthetics ™ of the people who committed them. Personally we should not ever dare apply, or use it because then you’d all have to face what Nazis actually were and not just your acceptable, goywashed bad guys.
It seems to me like a lot of white goyim think that Nazism and Holocaust imagery are theirs to claim and use, not Jewish and Romani people’s. Few say so out loud, of course, though I did see a German blogger say only Germans (meaning German goyim, I presume) are allowed to define who is a Nazi. They don’t need to say Nazi imagery belongs to them, though, because it’s obvious in the way they treat these images, in the double standard that you point out for Jewish and goyim creators using Nazi and Holocaust imagery.
Another way I suspect this supposed goyim ownership of Nazi imagery manifests is the sudden fixation on how the depiction of the FO has to conform to the precise academic definitions of Nazism, the 17 ideological markers or whatnot in order for it to “count” as a depiction of Nazism. Not only is this a laughable demand for a blockbuster movie, it’s perpetrator-centered thinking and not victim-centered. Seriously. When you’re being subjected to every brutality under the sun, who CARES about the ideological basis for destroying you? I seriously doubt that the experiences of those who were targeted for destruction centered around the precise academic definitions of their tormentors’ ideology. All that’s clear is the plain and empirical fact that they hate you. That hate did not start with the Nazis and did not end with them.
JJ Abrams didn’t lay out the ideology and the full range of the FO’s policies, but this works on three levels. First, it’s a space opera action flick, of fucking course it’s not going to be an academic documentary about Nazism. People are demanding an impossible standard of proof there, and by this standard no Nazis have ever appeared onscreen in the history of cinema. Certainly not in Indiana Jones. Not in Triumph of the Will. Not even in Schindler’s List.
Second, why should Abrams have engaged with a hateful ideology in his movie for it to be a valid use of Nazi and Holocaust imagery, exploring Nazism intellectually and giving it an airing as though it deserved serious thought? That’s how you get the Thanos situation, where people “see their point” and “understand” the villains. That’s how you spread this kind of vile ideology, by trying to be “fair” and showing “both sides.” No.
Third, I’d argue that Abrams did show Nazi ideology in TFA, the only parts that count: the senseless murders in Tuanul, Hux’s terrifying speech, the destruction of Hosnia, Finn’s trauma, Poe and Rey’s torture. I think that’s what makes people so uncomfortable, that Abrams showed a small amount of what the Nazis actually did, or would have if they could. He showed what it was like for the victims, and that’s what’s really unforgivable here. That’s what people call “trivializing,” because he claimed and used Nazi and Holocaust imagery without turning it into torture porn, because he showed the victims as strong and vital people who were allowed–especially in Finn’s case–to experience their trauma fully and fight back without apology.
I completely understand people’s need not to get their hopes up. As long as people aren’t derailing other people’s positive speculations about the movie I think everyone is entitled to their pessimism/caution. In general I hate it when people police others’ reactions. As long as things are tagged properly and people stay in their lanes, let people deal with their hopes, fears, and whatever other anticipations in peace.
Still, the fear is understandable at this point. JJ is the one who made Finn into a red herring for Rey in the first place and downplayed his competence to boost her up by comparison. It’s entirely possible that that was just the first stage of a what was to be a phenomenal arc for the character that got derailed when it was determined that fumbling, bumbling Rian Johnson would helm Ep VIII, but we’ll never know now. All we have to go on for certain is what JJ’s done with Finn so far, and it doesn’t inspire a lot of hope, at least not in me personally.
Yeah, JJ just looks so much better than RJ by comparison which… talk about low bars. I put more trust in John here: he has talked before about Finn being more of a growing hero than one who gets everything right from the start, and though a lot of his best qualities were artificially curtailed and downplayed in TFA they were still there. So I’m cautiously optimistic.
This may sound silly, but it’s hair of all things that’s giving me a sense that things may be different this time. John is the only cast member so far to have announced a change in appearance, and hair often has quite a lot of visual and story significance. This was thought out and planned ahead of time, since JJ would have had to let John know to grow his hair out through the spring and summer. It also had enough story meaning and prominence that John teased it well ahead of the first teaser, saying we would see what it was for when we saw the trailer. As I jokingly pointed out, a certain section of the fandom would have gone batshit if this had been for one of their white faves. Though a small detail, this points to more care and thought being put into the character, and excitement on John’s part if he’s discussing it already.
It also gives me hope that JJ has evidently been talking to Ava DuVernay and accepted her recommendation of Victoria Mahoney as second unit director. Obviously neither Ava nor Vic can influence Finn’s story in any final manner, but it’s a reminder that JJ respects Ava and is receptive to her views–if not specifically about Finn, at least about the importance of representation and diversity. That is my hope anyway.
All this is just me, of course, and I agree JJ deserves no passes at all for how he’s treated Finn. He could have done a growing hero without using Finn as bait or turning him into the butt of the joke in so many scenes. I hope he’ll be better than RJ but that is, again, a massively low bar.
*Will Smith stance* The Force Awakens. And the fact that JJ is back.
There is nothing in TFA that supports Reylo, nothing at all. Sure JJ likes Kylo, as a villain. By that measure I kinda like Kylo too. Like Vader in the OT and like Palpatine in the PT he’s custom made for the present time.
Now if Jurassic World guy had been in charge I’d be a whole lot less certain, he’s the worst kind of misogynist. But JJ? No.
Whatever the man’s flaws and they’re many he’s at least able to keep his characters consistent with themselves. He straight up had to go deus ex and have the ground open between Rey and Kylo because he literally couldn’t think of a reason why she wouldn’t kill him after having knocked him down.
He may retcon Rey’s heritage – personally I hope he doesn’t, but that’s just me – but either way he’s not pairing her with a space Nazi.
Like JJ deliberately and with intent made the First Oder neo-Space Nazi, I know this fandom hates to accept it but he did. He made Kylo a high ranking member, second only to Snoke and clearly operating with his own fucked up agenda and under his own free will. We see Kylo choose evil, repeatedly in TFA. JJ is not about to go “oh wait, Kylo is secretly a good guy”. Do you know how extremely tired Jewish people are of the “good Nazi” trope in media? Lol, nope. Not happening.
Kylo may survive the ST, not sure what pressures JJ is under there, but a) I very much doubt he’ll ever be remotely redeemed and b) he sure as hell isn’t ending up with the female lead and a happy ever after.
rey: *confirms kylo tortured her, something that was clear and explicit in the movie*
reylos:
Because for some fucking reason it wasn’t explicitly known even though the novel, script, actors, writers, and director confirmed the torture was…torture.
Seriously? They’re throwing an actual tantrum over this? I mean, JJ called it torture more than once in the very Blu-Ray commentary they hold to be their ship bible. How could this have been unclear or controversial in any way?
JJ alluded it to mind rape but this is like a 2 year old issue. Ain’t none of us forgot
He called it torture in the Blu-Ray commentary as well. It was transcribed by a reylo no less (differences aside, kudos for all that work), so they can’t be ignorant about this. Screenshots are from the post itself, highlights by me:
I have to say that I really appreciate that JJ decided to change Rey and Finn’s dynamic from being more tumultuous to more amicable like we saw in TFA. I have respect when a writer/director is willing to look at what’s happening objectively, recognize issues and then alter their original “vision” because it just isn’t being realized like it should.
He saw how the actors really liked each other and that a more argumentative dynamic wouldn’t work for them. So instead of forcing a dynamic that didn’t work, he made adjustments. This is what I think more writers should do. And, to me, this was definitely the right call as one of the things I love about Finn and Rey together isn’t just how they are attracted to or love one another but also that they like and clearly respect each other. The liking part is something I feel like a lot of romantic couples in fiction (and in real life) miss, but I feel is so important.
THIS. I mean they’re the only potential canon love interests to be featured as one of the most iconic friendships of all time alongside the likes of Han and Chewie. If that’s not a much-needed update for the 21st century I don’t know what is. For a potential romantic storyline that tried to recreate the old Han x Leia combativeness (which I never liked, for the record) see the epic fail that is Finnrose.
Before anyone tries to downplay the hire, Victoria Mahoney being a second unit director for Episode IX is in fact a pretty big deal. A second unit director might not film with the principal characters, but she is also not an assistant director. She operates independantly from the first unit and is fully in charge of the actors, stuntspeople, and set while she has them. She has a full complement of staff and crew, if on a smaller scale than the first unit. For these reasons the job is often considered the last step to being a full-fledged director.
So Mahoney being second-unit director in a movie on the scale of Star Wars, with its crucial action scenes and stunt coordinations, will definitely put her on the fast track to directing her own big films. And if directors of Ava DuVernay and J.J. Abrams’ caliber went to bat for her you can bet your ass she deserves every big movie to come her way and more.
L.J.'s Obsessions 