This is why Mr. Fry will always have a seat at my table.
Amen.
I was having a conversation about religion with this guy and he asked me what I would do if I got into heaven and had to sit next to God. I told him I wouldn’t take the seat.
I’m re-watching the Prince of Egypt, and the whole God saying “totally, just kill a lamb and paint your door with it’s blood so I know not to kill your first born children” really strikes me as a ruthless Pagan God move…
So my question is… What the fuck?
Some secondary and follow up questions? are:
God sent plagues, but that feels like a lot more work than just saying “Hebrews grab your shit, revolt, and leave, you easily out number the Egyptians.”
God appeared to Moses as a burning bush… Why not something idk, more obviously god-like? He has ultimate power and chose to look like flaming shrubbery.
This story is so weird, because you could change the names of the people and places, then tell me it’s a fantasy story about some Pagan God that wants to deliver his worshippers out of bondage.
But also fuck everyone else who’s having a rough time? He doesn’t care about delivering anyone else, including future enslaved races? Just the Hebrews… That one time… Dude sounds like some choosy guy who has to use a surrogate… Must not have ultimate power if he can’t come down from his high throne and do it himself??
If someone can give me a real solid answer as to why God sounds just exactly like some Pagan Gods (with the lambs blood, water into blood, plagues and shit) then I will shut the fuck up. Until then, imma be questioning this
So these kinds of questions are always amusing from the Jewish perspective, because well…we talk about this all the time. Why bother killing the first borns? Dayenu. (It would have been enough to just let us go free.)
But basically, you’re approaching this from a heavily christian-normative atheist perspective. I don’t think asking Xtians about this story will help, because this is the most fundamentally Jewish story to be tackling.
Here goes:
“totally, just kill a lamb and paint your door with it’s blood so I know not to kill your first born children” really strikes me as a ruthless Pagan God move…
Animal sacrifice absolutely exists in the Torah and during the first and second temple periods. The fact that Judaism explicitly bans all human sacrifice is seen as (in historical context) a huge step away from pagan ritual sacrifice. Many scholars believe the shift to animal sacrifice in general is reflective of understanding man’s more primal urges, and redirecting it away from murder or human sacrifice.
At any rate, the sacrifice of the lamb and painting of the lintel with lamb’s blood could have any number of possible parallels or reasonings.
It’s worth noting that sacrificing a lamb would be considered to be inappropriate by the Egyptians, which is mentioned right there in the text of Exodus. (I assume you didn’t read it):
(Chapter 8) 21 Thereupon, Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron, and he said, “Go, sacrifice to your God in the land.” 22 But Moses said, “It is improper to do that, for we will sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to God our Lord. Will we sacrifice the deity of the Egyptians before their eyes, and they will not stone us? 23 Let us go [for] a three day journey in the desert and sacrifice to the Lord, our God, as He will say to us.” 24 Pharaoh said, “I will let you go out, and you will sacrifice to the Lord, your God, in the desert, but do not go far away; entreat [Him] on my behalf.”
The Egyptians had Sheep/Ram headed Gods, so it’s not surprising that sacrificing a lamb for God would indicate that the Jewish people are truly not Egyptians, especially if an Egyptian might be inclined to stone someone for doing this.
The choice of sacrificing a sheep might very well be completely intentional as an affront against Egyptian oppressors. We have corroboration historically about the importance of rams and sheep in Egypt:
Herodotus, in his survey of Egyptian customs, writes (Histories, 2:42):
Now all who have a temple set up to the Theban Zeus (=Amun) or who are of the district of Thebes, these, I say, all sacrifice goats and abstain from sheep… the Egyptians make the image of Zeus (=Amun) into the face of a ram… the Thebans then do not sacrifice rams but hold them sacred for this reason.
So this isn’t just a random “pagan” act, this is a group of people intentionally sacrificing an animal held sacred as representative of a pagan god, because that is what God requires and asks for. The Egyptians would never sacrifice a sheep, if the sheep represents some of their deities – but the Hebrews, who do not worship pagan gods, most certainly would.
If you read chapter 9, you will also see Pharaoh try and command that the Hebrews should leave behind their sheep and cattle (in part to prevent their sacrifice) – which they refuse to do.
The “sacrifice” of the lamb fulfills a few different purposes:
it is considered sacrilegious by the Egyptians, thus setting them apart from the pagans (and symbolically showing a willingness to destroy pagan gods)
the lamb is meant to be cooked and prepared so that the families can eat it. It’s a meal to be prepared in light of the fact that they’re preparing to flee.
Torah also tells us the blood is a sign for the Hebrews, and not the Egyptians. The blood is actually marked on the inside of the door (as per Rashi’s commentary on the Hebrew), and therefore the only people who can see the blood would be God (who is able to see all) and the Hebrews from inside their homes. It looks more impressive to do it the other way when you animate it, though.
The verse shows us this:
And the blood will be for you for a sign upon the houses where you will be, and I will see the blood and skip over you, and there will be no plague to destroy [you] when I smite the [people of the] land of Egypt.
Rashi explains: And the blood will be for you for a sign: [The blood will be] for you a sign but not a sign for others. From here, it is derived that they put the blood only on the inside. — [from Mechilta 11]
and I will see the blood: [In fact,] everything is revealed to Him. [Why then does the Torah mention that God will see the blood?] Rather, the Holy One, blessed be He, said, “I will focus My attention to see that you are engaged in My commandments, and I will skip over you.” -[from Mechilta]
Your other questions are also interesting:
God sent plagues, but that feels like a lot more work than just saying “Hebrews grab your shit, revolt, and leave, you easily out number the Egyptians.”
Well, again, have you read a haggadah? We uh, talk about this once a year. If God had let us flee Egypt and not bothered with punishing our oppressors – that would have been enough!
So like, in general, you can’t attend a passover seder without questioning…why God bothered with the plagues.
God appeared to Moses as a burning bush… Why not something idk, more obviously god-like? He has ultimate power and chose to look like flaming shrubbery.
A bush that is on fire but does not get burnt is pretty impressive. But again, I guess you haven’t actually read exodus, because it’s not just a burning bush:
An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from within the thorn bush, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, but the thorn bush was not being consumed.
So Moses said, “Let me turn now and see this great spectacle why does the thorn bush not burn up?”
An angel appears in the fire, the thorn bush is on fire, but does not burn. Then God appears. But eh, maybe that isn’t as wild as you want it to be, so the following exchange between Moses and God is a bit more…miraculous. First God turns Moses’ staff and turns it into a serpent, and back into a staff. This is the first sign Moses can use to prove that God is here. And then…
And the Lord said further to him, “Now put your hand into your bosom,” and he put his hand into his bosom, and he took it out, and behold, his hand was leprous like snow.
And He said, “Put your hand back into your bosom,” and he put his hand back into his bosom, and [when] he took it out of his bosom, it had become again like [the rest of] his flesh.
…you might want to picture it a little bit like this:
– You best start believing in holy stories, Moshe. – you’re in one.
But again, you don’t need to believe in this literally or accept it as literal. But I think it’s a bit silly to say it’s not “miraculous” enough or something.
This story is so weird, because you could change the names of the people and places, then tell me it’s a fantasy story about some Pagan God that wants to deliver his worshippers out of bondage.
Except you couldn’t, which is why it’s a story about the Jewish monotheistic God. If you swapped out the name of God and the people, it would still be a monotheistic story.
You could take “In order that they believe that the Lord, the God of their forefathers, has appeared to you, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.“
and instead say “the King, the Ancient One of their forefathers, has appeared to you, the God of Maharba, the God of Caasi, and the God of Bocaj,” but you’re still fundamentally naming a monotheistic deity.
But also fuck everyone else who’s having a rough time? He doesn’t care about delivering anyone else,
Again, this isn’t true, and even PoE illustrates this! Watch it again, and you’ll notice Egyptians dropping their weapons and walking alongside the Hebrews, even crossing the sea! and why else would God give commandments before the Hebrews cross the sea about what to do with the converts and strangers living among them?
Exodus 12:37-38:
The children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot, the men, besides the young children. And also, a great mixed multitude went up with them, and flocks and cattle, very much livestock.
These are the others, fleeing with the Hebrews. Anyone who wanted to flee was able to do so, and join the Israelites.
including future enslaved races? Just the Hebrews… That one time…
Well there’s a few ways to look at this. But I don’t believe this is an issue of “just this one time.”
1.) the issue of the Jewish people being enslaved and kept from Israel is an issue because if the Jewish people fulfill their end of the covenant (contract) then God should also fulfill their promises. An exodus from slavery in Egypt had to occur for the return to Israel to happen. The covenant is a contract. God is making good on their end of that contract with the exodus.
So here, God intervenes lest they fail to uphold a contract.
2.) But also, ultimately, Judaism promotes the idea that in times of distress mankind should act as if there is no God, and do the right thing. We take action because it is up to us to take that action. It was ultimately up to the Israelites to leave Egypt, even if God made it seem more possible to do so. It was up to the Israelites to pack their things and prepare their rations and even up to them to bravely step forwards into the sea and keep going, even though it took time for the waters to part. (Some say the waters did not part until the Israelites were so far into the water that it would have drowned them.)
So have other people been liberated from slavery? Absolutely. You have two choices – you can say it was because of “God” or you can say it was because of the hard work of abolitionists and slave uprisings. It’s not a mystery why the African American community references Exodus so heavily in gospel music – Jewish freedom is a template for all freedom (and anyways, there are also black Jews!). So did God free black slaves, or did black men and women and abolitionist allies work tirelessly for that freedom? Couldn’t it be both? Shouldn’t we say, be capable of going “If God freed us then, then now our lives should be also dedicated to freeing everyone else?” Why would you assume mankind is free from the work of liberation? It is our job to work for freedom on behalf of others, not to just sit on our ass and expect God to do the work.
Again, no surprise that Jewish Americans were involved in abolitionism throughout the world and heavily involved in the US civil rights movements.
Dude sounds like some choosy guy who has to use a surrogate… Must not have ultimate power if he can’t come down from his high throne and do it himself??
…Choosy, absolutely. Not having ultimate power is endlessly debatable. One way or another, it happened, and certainly God sent down the forces to do so in Exodus. But also, uh, you realize a lot of this was a learning and teaching process, right?
If someone can give me a real solid answer as to why God sounds just exactly like some Pagan Gods (with the lambs blood, water into blood, plagues and shit) then I will shut the fuck up. Until then, imma be questioning this
Like I said, lamb’s blood is in direct contrast/opposition to local Pagan worship.
The Nile running red with blood is actually deeply symbolic – recall that in the beginning of the Exodus story, the first born Hebrew sons are being thrown into the Nile River. So what God is doing is illustrating the fact that the Nile was filled with the blood of the Hebrew people – specifically their firstborn sons – and this is the blood which Pharaoh was responsible for shedding. It’s similar to Macbeth, when Lady Macbeth hallucinates blood on her hands after her murderous act. Except here, the entire Nile turns to blood, haunting Pharaoh with the blood of the slaves his father had murdered. Talk about facing the reality of your actions. This is where the blood comes from.
Either way, none of these things make God more or less pagan? The issue of paganism is not how a God acts or behaves, but whether or not there are other Gods. Like that’s literally it. Hope that helped? Lmao. These questions aren’t that weird.
Shoot son, you sure rose to that challenge!
Ngl, you schooled me. Historical context was missing in the movie, so you’ll have to give me that one. The rest of that I never fucking learned in years of Sunday school, (and these kind of questions weren’t encouraged.) Thank you, @keshetchai I’ve learned a lot today!
Forgive me that I remain skeptical, it still boils down to having faith or not having faith; this isn’t a reflection of you though and thank you again for such a thorough answer 🙂
no problem! This is a big example of the massive differences between Judaism and xtianity as a whole. A lot of the questions you touched upon are built in to the passover seder, and are encouraged. We ask exactly a lot of these things!
There’s also a part of the seder where we discuss the four questions (why is this night different from all other nights?) and then we discuss the Four Children, each child covering a different attitude towards the story. To paraphrase:
The Wise Child asks: What does this all mean? What are the laws we are commanded, the customs and traditions we uphold?
The Wicked Child*** asks: What does this mean to you? [Why do you even bother with all this?] ***wicked isn’t like, “evil” it’s more like “challenging.” or “isolated” from the community by distancing themselves.
The Simple Child asks: What is it that we’re doing? What’s the seder about?
The Child Who Does Not Know How to Ask doesn’t ask a question at all, and instead can be prompted into thinking of questions to ask, being helped to understand things, or may just be too young to formulate the question– and yet we still must include them.
Each “type” of question is meant to be met with an answer. So asking these questions might be discouraged in xtianity, but is part of the Jewish tradition.
It’s okay if you don’t believe everything, or don’t take it literally. Honestly, that isn’t why I answered your questions – I’m not concerned about convincing you of the truth or literalism of the story. I just think it’s fair to want honest answers to interesting questions. Personally, whether or not it happened literally isn’t really a big deal for me, or even where i derive meaning when hearing the story. Faith means something different in Judaism than it does in xtianity, so I don’t have any kind of investment in trying to convince you to “just believe” because someone said so.
if you don’t want to believe in parts or all of it, it’s no skin off my nose. Frankly, I’m way more concerned with impressing the idea that “slavery is bad and we as people are obligated to help in the liberation of others.” 🙂 the times when these questions become an issue are when gentiles present the questions as if Jewish people are stupid/backwards/barbaric/etc. That would be an issue, but asking “what the hell was going on there??” earnestly isn’t.
Reblogging because:
(a) this is an excellent and thoughtful discussion of various theological issues;
(b) I really appreciate people doing what @keshetchai does here, giving questions serious, thorough, and kind answers;
(d) this is just a super sweet exchange all round; and
(e) I learned things from it! (I did not realize about the blood being on the inside of the doors, or about other Egyptians joining the Israelites in their flight.)
hey there LGBTQ kids who are also Christian/Jewish! If you feel like you’re disobeying God, questioning your faith, or feel wrong and dirty for loving who you love, there’s this fantastic site I found today called hoperemains that accurately and thoroughly combs through scripture and its (many) mistranslations, validates your orientation, and basically let’s you know that you’re not pissing off God. It’s insanely thorough and after reading through every page on the entire site it’s super helpful. Go check it out!
hoperemains is completely from a Christian perspective, and not pluralistic or interfaith at all.
If you reblogged the first post from me please reblog this amendment so the Jewish peeps can access this resource too!
Trans Jewish kids, you can go to TransTorah as well!
Muslim LGBTQ kids, you can go to iamnotharaam! It’s run by a mod squad of different genders and orientations, and they take submissions from everybody!
–BB
MAY ANYONE WHO REBLOGS THIS BE ELEVATED TO THE EQUIVALENT OF SAINTHOOD IN THEIR RELIGION BLESS ALL OF YOU OH MY GOD.
REBLOGGING THIS AGAIN BECAUSE IT’S SO FREAKING IMPORTANT TO ME AND ALL MY FOLLOWERS TO READ THAT DEAL WITH GRIEF AND GUILT WHILE BEING LGBTQ AND RELIGIOUS
Some of the ways in which TLJ is a baldly, blatantly, aggressively Christian movie, in stark contrast to the very Jewish TFA:
Pain,
suffering, abject failure and loss, including the deaths of many good
people, are held up to be ultimately positive lessons. In Jewish thought, in contrast, while good can come of suffering pain is not good or holy in of itself. The point in Judaism is to lessen pain and improve life, not to join in suffering.
TLJ shows borderline obsession with “sin” and “sinners” as
salacious and fascinating, hence the focus on Kylo Ren. (I use quote
marks here because he is not just a “sinner,” he’s a criminal and
abuser.) In Judaism, sin is not nearly as big a deal so far as I can tell. It is not a subject of fixation to the point of romanticization.
The doctrine that everyone is a sinner is simplified
down to moral equivalence between good and evil people and
organizations. Of course Luke also had darkness in him because he too is
a sinner, etc.
Self-sacrifice is the ultimate virtue and
washes away any mistakes one might have made, e.g. Luke and Holdo. It’s basically martyrdom in space. In Jewish thought, while martyrdom can be necessary, it is not something to be sought out and should be avoided if possible.
TLJ’s emphasis on forgiveness, redemption, and patience is also very Christian. Rey is suddenly and
uncharacteristically devoted to the idea of saving Kylo Ren, Rose gives
Finn the speech about not fighting what they hate, which doesn’t even
make sense on its face in the midst of a struggle against a genocidal force. In contrast, anger against oppression is an important theme in Judaism and you can see this in Finn and Rey’s anger in TFA. This is one of the ways TLJ marks a sharp tonal departure from TFA.
On a related note, redemption for Kylo Ren as presented in this movie looks a lot like cheap grace, which German theologian and anti-Nazi dissident Dietrich Bonhoeffer described as “preaching forgiveness without requiring repentance.” Significantly, Bonhoeffer was resisting the Nazi influence on the German Lutheran church with his opposition to cheap grace. Cheap grace is an alien and repugnant concept to Judaism–forgiveness is not an obligation even if the wrongdoer has repented and made amends.
Yoda performs a classic smashing of the idols scene with a bait-and-switch book burning. By contrast I am told that book burning
is unthinkable for Jewish people due to the great respect for scholarly
traditions in Judaism. This is especially true for foundational texts like the ones Yoda pretended he was destroying: People have run into burning synagogues to save the Torah, which is a matter of not only scholarship but identity. The scene becomes all the more jarring when juxtaposed against the many purges and massacres the Jedi Order and their followers suffered, including in TFA.
Crait has a very distinct
red-on-white look reminiscent of the Crusaders/Knights Templar. In Jewish imagery blue is the color of supreme importance, and it is even more strongly associated with the good guys in TFA than in the previous movies.
In TLJ lawful authority is
not to be questioned, even if they are violent, seem untrustworthy, and look like they will lead to outright ruin. This is a rather un-Star Wars
message, making it stick out all the more. On the other hand, unquestioning obedience to authority is anathema to Jewish people. They argue with everyone, including God. Especially God.
(via kyberfox) “Godspeed, Rebels.” First of all it’s the Resistance, but… excuse me, God?? What? God??!!? Also, Kylo Ren asks Luke if he came to save his soul, another blatant and aggressive insertion of Christian concepts into Star Wars.
(I am so deeply indebted to @kyberfox and @attackfish for this list that giving individual credit for the ideas would be distracting. Suffice it to say substantially all the perspectives on Judaism and many of the points on Christianity are theirs.)
Note: Below is a submission that I was asked to add anonymously to this post. TW for sexual assault, aphobia, gaslighting, abuse.
I was raised Catholic, and a small branch of my family is Jewish. I
probably know more than the average goy about Judaism, but not by a lot.
I am the survivor of a lot of sexual assault and harassment that took
place at Catholic school. I was 13, and the other kids wanted to know
who in the class I thought was hot, I said I didn’t think anyone was
(turns out I’m aroace, and yes, even the Catholics recognize that as not
being straight), and they took that as something that could be
corrected by force. They groped me, destroyed my possessions, scraped me
across a brick wall, and held me down to put makeup on me. In
hindsight, the worst part was that the teacher’s son would come over
from the high school on his lunch break, sit on my desk, and sexually
assault me during class while his mother taught and pretended nothing
was wrong. Then she would gaslight me about what he, and the other
students had done. The teachers knew what was happening, it happened in
front of them, and obviously the one I previously mentioned knew about
enough of it to gossip to her son so he would come join in. They didn’t
care because they knew I was queer before I knew I was queer, and this
is what happens to queer kids at bad Catholic schools. The teachers let
it happen, because they think it’ll turn you straight. And if not and
you kill yourself, no loss. You’re going to hell anyway.
They
would make me say that I forgave the boys who assaulted me. Because that
is a big part of being a good Christian, forgiveness. It took me a
long time to realize that the only people who deserve forgiveness are
the ones who are actually sorry, and aren’t going to do it again. The
rest can piss off. That’s what TLJ missed, and what is so Christian
about it. Your abuser doesn’t deserve your sympathy. Turns out that the
teacher’s son who abused me was the product of rape himself, and other
adults in the community tell me that I should feel bad for her and him
because of that. I was supposed to feel sympathy for her, but she stood
by and did nothing while her son assaulted me. I am sorry that she was
raped and that’s why he exists, but that doesn’t absolve her of standing
by and watching him hurt me. She doesn’t deserve my forgiveness, and
neither does he. Kylo doesn’t deserve Rey’s forgiveness either. He has
done nothing but hurt her and the people she loves, and while he may be
feeling some regret, he would absolutely do it again (i.e. not wanting
to save the Resistance fleet), and therefore she owes him nothing. Not a
single bit of sympathy, and definitely not forgiveness. Sure, he has a
tragic past, but he’s still making choices as an adult to hurt people,
and be skeevy to a teenager a full decade younger than him. Rey has no
reason to feel like she owes him anything, unless she’s being subjected
to shitty Christianity. (I saw shitty Christianity because I know that
not all of Christianity is like this, but tbh a lot of it is shitty and
is exactly like this)
It took me years to realize this for myself,
and to realize that the only people responsible for my abuse were my
abusers and it wasn’t my fault. I’m seeing a therapist now, and was
diagnosed with PTSD, and things got better once I was able to talk about
it in a more reasonable setting than Catholic school. TLJ threw me for a
fucking loop though. Kylo is so much like the people who abused me. In
TFA it was empowering to see Rey interact with him because it was
obvious that there was this angry feral part of her that wanted to tear
out his throat. That anger was good. That anger was something I hadn’t
been allowed to have in Catholic school. I had to be meek and forgiving.
I had to be like Rey in TLJ where she says “Ben,” so quietly when she’s
trying to turn him to the light. What I loved about Rey in TFA was her
anger, and from what I read in the Old Testament and what I hear my
cousins talk about in the Torah, TFA Rey absolutely acts like a Jewish
girl from those stories. Her anger would have been a so much better
direction for the story line to pursue in TLJ, if her temptation to the
Dark Side was due to her (justifiable) anger at Kylo. But that’s not
what happened, because exactly as you said, the narrative took on a
distinctly Christian slant of forgiveness, even when that forgiveness
isn’t justified.
I am so glad that this movie didn’t come out
while I was still in Catholic school. Star Wars was my escape from that,
and if I’d seen a Star Wars movie where the heroine is forced into a
narrative of forgiveness towards her abuser, and Luke Skywalker is
depressed and hopeless and sacrifices himself in what really seems to me
like a suicide, I would not have gotten through those years because it
would have been the wrong message from one more source and I don’t think
I could have taken it.
Being able to pinpoint that there was a
Christian shift to TLJ helped me a lot in understanding why that movie
was so upsetting to me, so I’m sharing this in hopes that it helps other
survivors, and also maybe helps people who haven’t been through this
sort of abusive shit understand why the narrative of forgiveness in TLJ
is so nauseating.
A lot of the complaints about Kylo Ren as a villain is that he lacks Vader’s larger than life evil, he’s too common, too human to be evil. Traits that are used by his stans to argue why he will/must be redeemed.
I would like to point out that both camps, those who hate Kylo Ren for his humaness and those who use it for his defense, has missed the point JJ and Lawrence were trying to make.
Some of the ways in which TLJ is a baldly, blatantly, aggressively Christian movie, in stark contrast to the very Jewish TFA:
Pain,
suffering, abject failure and loss, including the deaths of many good
people, are held up to be ultimately positive lessons. In Jewish thought, in contrast, while good can come of suffering pain is not good or holy in of itself. The point in Judaism is to lessen pain and improve life, not to join in suffering.
TLJ shows borderline obsession with “sin” and “sinners” as
salacious and fascinating, hence the focus on Kylo Ren. (I use quote
marks here because he is not just a “sinner,” he’s a criminal and
abuser.) In Judaism, sin is not nearly as big a deal so far as I can tell. It is not a subject of fixation to the point of romanticization.
The doctrine that everyone is a sinner is simplified
down to moral equivalence between good and evil people and
organizations. Of course Luke also had darkness in him because he too is
a sinner, etc.
Self-sacrifice is the ultimate virtue and
washes away any mistakes one might have made, e.g. Luke and Holdo. It’s basically martyrdom in space. In Jewish thought, while martyrdom can be necessary, it is not something to be sought out and should be avoided if possible.
TLJ’s emphasis on forgiveness, redemption, and patience is also very Christian. Rey is suddenly and
uncharacteristically devoted to the idea of saving Kylo Ren, Rose gives
Finn the speech about not fighting what they hate, which doesn’t even
make sense on its face in the midst of a struggle against a genocidal force. In contrast, anger against oppression is an important theme in Judaism and you can see this in Finn and Rey’s anger in TFA. This is one of the ways TLJ marks a sharp tonal departure from TFA.
On a related note, redemption for Kylo Ren as presented in this movie looks a lot like cheap grace, which German theologian and anti-Nazi dissident Dietrich Bonhoeffer described as “preaching forgiveness without requiring repentance.” Significantly, Bonhoeffer was resisting the Nazi influence on the German Lutheran church with his opposition to cheap grace. Cheap grace is an alien and repugnant concept to Judaism–forgiveness is not an obligation even if the wrongdoer has repented and made amends.
Yoda performs a classic smashing of the idols scene with a bait-and-switch book burning. By contrast I am told that book burning
is unthinkable for Jewish people due to the great respect for scholarly
traditions in Judaism. This is especially true for foundational texts like the ones Yoda pretended he was destroying: People have run into burning synagogues to save the Torah, which is a matter of not only scholarship but identity. The scene becomes all the more jarring when juxtaposed against the many purges and massacres the Jedi Order and their followers suffered, including in TFA.
Crait has a very distinct
red-on-white look reminiscent of the Crusaders/Knights Templar. In Jewish imagery blue is the color of supreme importance, and it is even more strongly associated with the good guys in TFA than in the previous movies.
In TLJ lawful authority is
not to be questioned, even if they are violent, seem untrustworthy, and look like they will lead to outright ruin. This is a rather un-Star Wars
message, making it stick out all the more. On the other hand, unquestioning obedience to authority is anathema to Jewish people. They argue with everyone, including God. Especially God.
(via kyberfox) “Godspeed, Rebels.” First of all it’s the Resistance, but… excuse me, God?? What? God??!!? Also, Kylo Ren asks Luke if he came to save his soul, another blatant and aggressive insertion of Christian concepts into Star Wars.
(I am so deeply indebted to @kyberfox and @attackfish for this list that giving individual credit for the ideas would be distracting. Suffice it to say substantially all the perspectives on Judaism and many of the points on Christianity are theirs.)
I’ve been planning to write a post about the same thing, but this says it all better than I could. I think it may be the thing I found most jarring about TLJ – and about a lot of the commentary around Kylo Ren’s possible redemption. It all feels inappropriately Christian to me. Which is why I have hope that JJ will carry out some major course (and tone) correction.
Thank you! Oh yes, I discussed on this blog a lot of issues with forgiveness for Kylo Ren as discussed in fandom, particularly the idea that forgiveness is in itself mandatory/uplifting and the elements of cheap grace rampant in the discussion. I have also argued that JJ is taking a career risk returning to SW is this atmosphere, and there’s no conceivable reason to direct IX unless it’s to take back control of the story and get the last word on it. I certainly hope you’re right and IX is a course correction.
As someone who is currently converting to Judaism, I like to think in a galaxy far, far away there is a holiday like Hanukkah that Finn and Rey would celebrate together, with BB-8 lending a helping … hand?
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just a not so friendly reminder that both Kylo’s parents are jewish so uh?? maybe consider that idk before you call him a nazi since he’s coded jewish
A not-so-friendly “hey, you’re absolutely wrong, and I’m a Jewish SW fan who calls him a Nazi ABSOLUTELY FOR A REASON AND THAT REASON IS HE’S MEANT TO BE SEEN AS ONE” –
An integral part of Kylo’s entire storyline as a villain is that he is
ethnically Alderaanian (Space Sephardi Jewish, as far as current canon
can be compared to real-life ethnic and cultural groups) and raised by a
mother who both witnessed the genocide of the Alderaanian people AND
had the responsibility of representing their culture on the Galactic
stage so that their presence wouldn’t be forgotten entirely after the (lowercase-h)
holocaust…
But then he, as an adult man, of his own free will, CHOSE
to reject his heritage and join an explicitly neo-Nazi-coded fascist
military/political junta that existed solely to finish the ethnoracial
cleansing the Empire started in the Galaxy and centralize power under
one tyrannical leader who believes that only human beings (all white, in
the films, although there are some Black FO officers in the
novels/comics) is fit to have independent autonomy. The First Order is
literally called The First Order because “the first order of business is begin [the Empire’s reign] again.”
One of the first acts of the FO/final acts of the Empire was to hunt
down and exterminate all surviving Alderaanians, illustrating that it
was NOT solely a political decision on Tarkin’s part – it wasn’t about getting Leia to reveal where the Rebellion HQ was; he was always going to destroy Alderaan because its culture and governing body were antithetical to the Empire’s ideals and goals and Tarkin himself HATED Alderaan and Alderaanians. (In fact, a lot of the antisemitic stereotypes neo-Nazis and antisemites associate with Jews IRL are traits that Tarkin ascribes to Leia, Breha, and Bail, particularly in that he thinks that they’re manipulative wealth-hoarders who have a secret agenda to take over the Galaxy for their own gain [which, of course, is fucking rich coming from a Grand Moff of the Empire, analogous, of course, to a rank of Reich Minister.])
Further, Kylo Ren chooses, as an adult man, of his own free will, to reject his Alderaanian heritage EXPLICITLY BECAUSE HE IS GIVEN A REASON TO BE ABLE TO SHED THAT IDENTITY. He joins the First Order – again, an OVERTLY neo-Nazis-coded illegal fascist junta, in the movie, which IDK if you saw, but is very overtly coded as a neo-Nazi regime – because he finds out that he isn’t actually the biological grandson of Bail Antilles and Breha Organa of Alderaan, but of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. He was not raised as Vader’s OR Anakin’s grandson, but as the grandson of the Organas – he joins the FO very shortly after a statue commemorating the Alderaanian Genocide is erected at the New Republic Senate building (which, btw, Kylo helps to destroy in the FO’s OWN genocide in TFA, because it’s on Hosnian Prime). He violently rejects his Space Jewish identity, and he joins the First Order to prove it.
Honestly, did you watch TFA? Have you read the extended canon materials? I honestly have no idea what the fuck Rian Johnson is doing with his Kylo/FO apologism boner, but Abrams (a Jewish director and writer) and the Kasdans (also Jewish Lucasfilm writers and producers) went out of their way to make the parallels between the First Order/Empire and the Nazis/neo-Nazi movements as nail-on-the-head obvious as they could without literally renaming them. (Someone on here once pointed out that Armitage Hux, the FO’s screamy speechifying figurehead general, even has the initials “A.H.”) Abrams doubled down on making sure that the “Kylo Ren is exulting in being able to disconnect from the Alderaanian genocide” thing by having him KEEP HUMAN ASHES AS A TROPHY, which is OBVIOUSLY rooted in Shoah imagery even if it’s a grandiose departure from reality. (It’s a movie, so of course it is.)
Beyond the fact that their jackbooted stormtroopers are LITERALLY CALLED “stormtroopers,” their film presence as universally White in the upper echelons of power – the dynamics of Rae Sloane, and why she is no longer a part of the FO’s power structure, are something I hope Lucasfilm can explain well, tbh – and Space Racist (their core belief, beyond the radically conservative “central seat of power” form of government they originally advocated for, is that only humans should have power in the Galaxy, as I said above, which is a SUPER common scifi trope for racism), and the fact that Abrams and Kasdan and Lucas have all SAID that they’re meant to be Nazi allegories, there’s the whole “Hux’s FO speech was meant to mirror the Nuremberg Rally, visually and in content” thing, and it succeeds.
Like, basically, Kylo’s parents both being played by Jewish actors – although Driver is not – and Leia and Han being Jewish-coded characters is PART OF Kylo’s characterization as a neo-Nazi. His internal struggle, the Light versus the Dark, his pain of being torn apart, is an extreme hatred of himself. A big part of his canonical anger at his parents is that they never told him that he was not actually genetically Alderaanian, but was raised that way anyway. It’s… like, it’s very much an intentional choice.
I agree with most of your posts, @jewish-mccoy, but you’re not correct on this hot take. Maybe stick to Star Trek meta?
The Jedi and the Force of the Church are space Muslims. Order 66, the destruction of Jedha, and the massacre of Tuanul were all parts of the Empire and later First Order’s genocidal campaign against Muslims.
Their priesthood, the al-Jeddi (masters of the mystic warrior way in Sufi Islam) were systematcally slaughtered, their holy city desecrated, stripped of its much-coveted resources, then leveled without a trace. Even lay adherents were considered fair game to be hunted down and killed if they got in the way of a campaign of expansion and imperialism.
I can see Jedha as being an allegory of the War on Terror, but Jedi are primarily Buddhist and other eastern religions. If you’re looking for a real-world allegory for them, you might see it in South Vietnam’s anti-Buddhist sentiment early in the Vietnam War.
Interesting.
Keep in mind, that last comparison may be heavily colored by me watching that episode of Ken Burns’s The Vietnam War, LOL.
I mean obviously the fictional elements in Star Wars are open to a lot of different interpretations and when I say the Jedi are space Muslims I don’t rule out other influences/allegories. The tags in the OP and especially @sithchirrut’s comments discuss parallels to the repression of Judaism and the history of the Jewish people, too.
“South Vietname’s anti-Buddhist sentiment” is a bit misleading, I think, because it sounds like the populace of South Vietnam had an anti-Buddhist bias. This would be odd given that South Vietnam was 70-80% Buddhist at the time. A more accurate way to put it would be “the South Vietnamese government’s policy of anti-Buddhist repression.“ Which wasn’t a smart thing to do given demographics, but this is the same government that managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory so…
Certainly, as I mentioned in the meta about Chirrut, his final walk had echoes of peaceful monks protesting in the face of gunfire. I also remember looking at the palm trees and the beach at Scarif, not to mention the stealth tactics of the Rebels, and being reminded of the Vietnam War.
Dude sounds like some choosy guy who has to use a surrogate… Must not have ultimate power if he can’t come down from his high throne and do it himself??
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