@loopy777 Well, obviously. Finn going from “This fleet is doomed” to outright kamikaze for the remnants of that fleet because the person who tased him and mocked him gave him a lecture about the evils of the universe and has a sad past is the height of writing. His character regressing from valuing his own individuality and feelings, something that was systematically denied to him as a child soldier, to seeing himself as expendable for yet another cause is great character development. And his “having” to be hurt yet again to be saved from himself and being lectured to about how hateful he is for wanting to sacrifice himself for other people is a great thematic moment.
And that’s just one character.
If I squint hard the egregious and incoherent “that’s how we win” moment was about Rose realizing she was wrong and telling Finn he shouldn’t throw his life away for a cause like her sister did, that yes, he should live, he should have a chance to see Rey again. But there was a relentlessly glorified suicide run like 5 minutes earlier, and that was evidently about serving the light and not being a hero? And Paige wasn’t trying to destroy what she hated, she was thinking about Rose in her last moments? Finn wasn’t acting out of hate either, he was trying to buy time for the remainder of the Resistance. Why is it love when Holdo does it and hate when Finn does it?
I think I would have liked the scene better without that stupid line, because then at least it could have been about Rose’s trauma and not about her being a thematic vessel or whatever the hell that scene was trying to achieve.
@loopy777 DJ as catalyst for Finn development is even worse, though? At least
Rose became a friend of sorts. Finn went from fleeing to kamikaze
because a random dude he met in a jail cell spouted nonsense moral
equivalency and then–shock!–betrayed them. That looks awfully flimsy to me.
Did
you seriously put Finn’s “individuality” in quotes? I guess I
hallucinated the parts in TFA where he escaped the regime that kidnapped
and enslaved him out of his own “individual” conscience, where he made
friends and built relationships as an “individual,” and wanted to flee
to the Outer Rim out of his terror and trauma as an “individual.” Or the
part in TLJ where he wanted him and Rey, two “individuals,” to be
spared the destruction. There’s even a part in the TLJ novelization
where he all but begs Rose to understand that he was never allowed to
think and act for himself as an “individual” in the First Order (and
Rose dismisses him because yay friendship)!
I’m sorry, buying
time in a desperate situation has always been a valid military plan and,
for that matter, Holdo’s and Paige’s sacrifices also consisted of
buying time with their lives. There WAS a plan on Finn’s part for the
Outer Rim to rally and come to the Resistance’s aid. Finn had so much faith in the
people of the galaxy rising up against the First Order that he was
willing to literally stake his life on it, and then to have his
attempted sacrifice cheapened by being called an act of hate and not
love left a serious bad taste in my mouth.
Also, even if we say he
was acting without a plan, that is at best thoughtless or reckless, not
hateful. Rose’s speech, though framed and received as a thematic
moment, was unearned and made no sense even by your metric.
Yes, Finn was an individual, but ‘individuality’ was a never a theme or a subplot anywhere; it’s not important to the story, and 7 certainly doesn’t posit it as the reason he left the FO. 8 was clear that no more help was coming to Crait, & everyone knew it by then. And I don’t think “thoughtless and reckless” inspires suicide without some deeper emotion driving it- you’re taking away Finn’s agency, and kind of infantilizing him.
@loopy777 “My first battle, I made a choice.I wasn’t going to kill for them.”
I mean… I can’t believe I actually have to explain what an astounding assertion of individuality that was for someone who was brainwashed to be a cog in the FO machine. He listened to his own trauma, his own morality, in defiance of everything he had been taught his entire life, and I thought that made his individuality pretty important to his story and TFA as a whole. I’m curious, what do you think Finn’s arc in TFA was really about?
Oh hey, I didn’t realize “believing in the people of the galaxy” and “fuck it, I’m gonna save my friends anyway even if no one’s coming” weren’t valid motivations, or that attempting to kill yourself to destroy a weapon that would have been used to kill your friends has to come from a place of hate now. By that metric weren’t Holdo and Paige a lot more hateful, since they killed a metric ton of people in their own suicide runs? Or is it okay as long as they had a good plan–do carefully planned suicide attacks never come from a place of hate? As far as I can tell good planning and hatred are like… two totally unrelated indices. One doesn’t say anything about the other.
And why is it infantilizing to read a motivation in Finn that is not hatred? Believing that people will rise up is infantilizing now? Wanting to save your friends is infantilizing? I mean your handwavy “some deeper emotion” seems to be your own assumption and not anything supported by the story, other than the presupposition that Rose was correct. Why does that deeper emotion necessarily have to be hatred–couldn’t it be love, or maybe depression from everything he had suffered?
@loopy777 But Finn’s story being about asserting individuality explains both of those developments? He tried to flee because he listened to his own trauma and fear about the FO rather than be drawn into another cause to fight for. He came back for Rey not because he was obligated by a higher cause because she was someone he wanted to be safe. It’s clear that he hadn’t given himself to the Resistance at this point, but rather had his own goal he wanted to achieve by helping their mission.
It’s also possible that TLJ badly mangled his arc and his newly discovered individuality is ridiculed and called a bad thing, and then his dedication is also called bad so all he can do now is follow the person who was violent against him and insulted him. Maybe Rose Tico is just a horribly written character. You know, just a possibility.
Again, you can’t deny that earning time for one’s allies is a valid tactic that has been used throughout history, in general to show how noble the person is (e.g. Holdo). Even if no one came, Finn’s allies could still find a way out while their cover was intact. Since no one including Rose was expecting Luke to come, as far as anyone knew at that point Finn’s sacrifice actually was necessary for the Resistance remnants’ survival.
It’s interesting that it’s suddenly a “spiteful act of defiance” and “hate” because Finn does it while it’s “heroic” when Holdo does it. It’s also interesting that, while they both miscalculated, Holdo is judged by circumstances she could have known at the time while Finn is judged by circumstances he could not have. Omniscience is expected for Finn, but not for Holdo. And what’s more, not being omniscient makes Finn spiteful and hateful instead of, like, just not all-knowing.
You seem to have forgotten or misunderstood the role “thoughtles or reckless” played in my argument. That was not my first position, which was that he was making a noble sacrifice and there was no evidence he was acting out of hate, but rather a fallback position that even if we accept for the sake of argument (you know what that is, right?) that Finn’s suicide run was poorly planned, a position I don’t actually agree with, that at best makes him a bad planner and not automatically hateful. I was pointing out that even if you’re right about the sacrifice being needless, it doesn’t support your (or Rose’s) conclusion that he was being hateful.
But Finn wasn’t trying to destroy. He was trying to defend, much as Poe was. That’s another reason Rose’s line was dumb, by the way, because there is no clear line between destroying and defending when you’re being attacked by an enemy that’s trying to annihilate you. There’s a famous case of someone trying to apply pacifism toward fascists in our own world, but Neville Chamberlain doesn’t get the best rap unfortunately.
Eh, you can try to insert “individuality” into Finn’s background psychology, but you’re not really explaining where it was in The Story. If we were meant to read “individuality” in there as something important, it would have been reflected beyond Finn. I could easily read “cowardice” into the same moments and choices, and nothing in the movie would contradict me, but it’s equally unsupported by the wider framework.(1/3)
@loopy777 Going back to your earlier point Finn is actually not adverse to violence though, did you miss the part where he jumped out at and killed Troopers in battle on Takodana and actually whooped with joy in battle? Cowardice is even more contradicted by his actions where he hatches an incredibly dangerous plan to escape the FO and shows incredible boldness in battle, for instance literally running into someone aiming a blaster at him. There’s a lot of trauma and fear about the FO, understandably, but it doesn’t translate into anything that can be reasonably or fairly termed cowardice. And for that matter, aversion to violence isn’t a thing anywhere in TFA–not a theme, not a subplot, not reflected in the story anywhere. Violence has never been inherently bad in SW, or even in TLJ itself.
Different people are sensitive to different things, and have different reactions as a result. I’ve noticed that even a number of people who are very critical of TLJ don’t see the treatment of Finn as a problem, for instance, and a lot of white women see TLJ as an unqualified victory for female representation. I think a lot of people also react positively to what TLJ was trying to do, especially the last half hour or so, without necessarily dwelling on the failures of execution or how unearned some of its most heartfelt moments were.
I don’t get what you’re saying about Holdo vs Finn. 8 is clear that when they’re fleeing to Crait, they think allies might still come, but by Finn’s attack they know they’re trapped in a box and alone. Finn is in denial, and all he’s doing is hurting himself by giving into the dark side. And that’s where you argument about pacifism falls apart, because Star Wars has feeling-fueled magic. You may not like it, but it’s the point of this whole series. (2/3)
You are confused about the sequence of events. The confirmation that no one is coming explicitly arrives AFTER Finn’s attempted self-sacrifice and Rose crashing into him. It even comes after the “not fighting what we hate” line. The ski speeder mission was launched in the first place because Poe and others agreed with Finn’s argument that they buy time for allies to arrive. The only new information Finn had between the start of the mission and the end of it was that losses were too heavy and he was, most likely, going to die unless he gave up on taking out the cannon. You can’t argue this was “dark side” without arguing that suicide runs are inherently dark side, in which case Holdo is as much “dark side” as Finn.
Also why are you positing that Finn was acting out of hatred in an argument about whether finn was acting out of hatred? That’s circular reasoning. Unless you’re arguing that destroying a weapon to save innocent people/your friends is an inherently hateful act, in which case, well, he was already dark side in TFA and so were Luke and Lando from the original trilogy. Destroying an entire fleet in a suicide run isn’t particularly pacifistic, either.
‘As for “thoughtless and reckless,” I focused on that because we were already disagreeing hardcore about his sacrifice having any purpose, which I still say the movie is very clear on. You’re free to disagree on the clarity of the moment, of course, but I don’t think you can saying something is “unearned” when you’re reading against the text. (3/3)’
Like I said, you’re arguing from a false premise–that Finn knew no one was coming and they were alone, but he didn’t. If I’m wrong about that sequence of events please let me know.
The “thoughtless and reckless” bit is a neat trick on your part, if you’re even aware of what you’re doing. Let’s look at the flow of the argument so far: You said Finn’s act was hateful because he didn’t have a plan. I pointed out that even if he didn’t, though the movie supports my point that he did, not having a plan and being hateful are two separate categories. I labeled your argument correctly, that what you’re arguing is not that he was hateful but that he was thoughtless/reckless at best. Then you turned that against me, imputing your argument to me to accuse me of infantilizing him. That’s not an honest way to argue, Loopy.
Reading against the text is an impressive accusation coming from someone who’s going off an incorrect chronology of events, imputing knowledge to Finn that he couldn’t have had, and making a logical leap from there to calling him hateful, spiteful, giving into the Dark Side etc. If that’s the kind of distortion it takes to make Rose’s line fit, then frankly it doesn’t look very defensible.
@loopy777 Well, obviously. Finn going from “This fleet is doomed” to outright kamikaze for the remnants of that fleet because the person who tased him and mocked him gave him a lecture about the evils of the universe and has a sad past is the height of writing. His character regressing from valuing his own individuality and feelings, something that was systematically denied to him as a child soldier, to seeing himself as expendable for yet another cause is great character development. And his “having” to be hurt yet again to be saved from himself and being lectured to about how hateful he is for wanting to sacrifice himself for other people is a great thematic moment.
And that’s just one character.
If I squint hard the egregious and incoherent “that’s how we win” moment was about Rose realizing she was wrong and telling Finn he shouldn’t throw his life away for a cause like her sister did, that yes, he should live, he should have a chance to see Rey again. But there was a relentlessly glorified suicide run like 5 minutes earlier, and that was evidently about serving the light and not being a hero? And Paige wasn’t trying to destroy what she hated, she was thinking about Rose in her last moments? Finn wasn’t acting out of hate either, he was trying to buy time for the remainder of the Resistance. Why is it love when Holdo does it and hate when Finn does it?
I think I would have liked the scene better without that stupid line, because then at least it could have been about Rose’s trauma and not about her being a thematic vessel or whatever the hell that scene was trying to achieve.
@loopy777 DJ as catalyst for Finn development is even worse, though? At least
Rose became a friend of sorts. Finn went from fleeing to kamikaze
because a random dude he met in a jail cell spouted nonsense moral
equivalency and then–shock!–betrayed them. That looks awfully flimsy to me.
Did
you seriously put Finn’s “individuality” in quotes? I guess I
hallucinated the parts in TFA where he escaped the regime that kidnapped
and enslaved him out of his own “individual” conscience, where he made
friends and built relationships as an “individual,” and wanted to flee
to the Outer Rim out of his terror and trauma as an “individual.” Or the
part in TLJ where he wanted him and Rey, two “individuals,” to be
spared the destruction. There’s even a part in the TLJ novelization
where he all but begs Rose to understand that he was never allowed to
think and act for himself as an “individual” in the First Order (and
Rose dismisses him because yay friendship)!
I’m sorry, buying
time in a desperate situation has always been a valid military plan and,
for that matter, Holdo’s and Paige’s sacrifices also consisted of
buying time with their lives. There WAS a plan on Finn’s part for the
Outer Rim to rally and come to the Resistance’s aid. Finn had so much faith in the
people of the galaxy rising up against the First Order that he was
willing to literally stake his life on it, and then to have his
attempted sacrifice cheapened by being called an act of hate and not
love left a serious bad taste in my mouth.
Also, even if we say he
was acting without a plan, that is at best thoughtless or reckless, not
hateful. Rose’s speech, though framed and received as a thematic
moment, was unearned and made no sense even by your metric.
Different people are sensitive to different things, and have different reactions as a result. I’ve noticed that even a number of people who are very critical of TLJ don’t see the treatment of Finn as a problem, for instance, and a lot of white women see TLJ as an unqualified victory for female representation. I think a lot of people also react positively to what TLJ was trying to do, especially the last half hour or so, without necessarily dwelling on the failures of execution or how unearned some of its most heartfelt moments were.
Yes, Finn was an individual, but ‘individuality’ was a never a theme or a subplot anywhere; it’s not important to the story, and 7 certainly doesn’t posit it as the reason he left the FO. 8 was clear that no more help was coming to Crait, & everyone knew it by then. And I don’t think “thoughtless and reckless” inspires suicide without some deeper emotion driving it- you’re taking away Finn’s agency, and kind of infantilizing him.
@loopy777 “My first battle, I made a choice.I wasn’t going to kill for them.”
I mean… I can’t believe I actually have to explain what an astounding assertion of individuality that was for someone who was brainwashed to be a cog in the FO machine. He listened to his own trauma, his own morality, in defiance of everything he had been taught his entire life, and I thought that made his individuality pretty important to his story and TFA as a whole. I’m curious, what do you think Finn’s arc in TFA was really about?
Oh hey, I didn’t realize “believing in the people of the galaxy” and “fuck it, I’m gonna save my friends anyway even if no one’s coming” weren’t valid motivations, or that attempting to kill yourself to destroy a weapon that would have been used to kill your friends has to come from a place of hate now. By that metric weren’t Holdo and Paige a lot more hateful, since they killed a metric ton of people in their own suicide runs? Or is it okay as long as they had a good plan–do carefully planned suicide attacks never come from a place of hate? As far as I can tell good planning and hatred are like… two totally unrelated indices. One doesn’t say anything about the other.
And why is it infantilizing to read a motivation in Finn that is not hatred? Believing that people will rise up is infantilizing now? Wanting to save your friends is infantilizing? I mean your handwavy “some deeper emotion” seems to be your own assumption and not anything supported by the story, other than the presupposition that Rose was correct. Why does that deeper emotion necessarily have to be hatred–couldn’t it be love, or maybe depression from everything he had suffered?
@loopy777 But Finn’s story being about asserting individuality explains both of those developments? He tried to flee because he listened to his own trauma and fear about the FO rather than be drawn into another cause to fight for. He came back for Rey not because he was obligated by a higher cause because she was someone he wanted to be safe. It’s clear that he hadn’t given himself to the Resistance at this point, but rather had his own goal he wanted to achieve by helping their mission.
It’s also possible that TLJ badly mangled his arc and his newly discovered individuality is ridiculed and called a bad thing, and then his dedication is also called bad so all he can do now is follow the person who was violent against him and insulted him. Maybe Rose Tico is just a horribly written character. You know, just a possibility.
Again, you can’t deny that earning time for one’s allies is a valid tactic that has been used throughout history, in general to show how noble the person is (e.g. Holdo). Even if no one came, Finn’s allies could still find a way out while their cover was intact. Since no one including Rose was expecting Luke to come, as far as anyone knew at that point Finn’s sacrifice actually was necessary for the Resistance remnants’ survival.
It’s interesting that it’s suddenly a “spiteful act of defiance” and “hate” because Finn does it while it’s “heroic” when Holdo does it. It’s also interesting that, while they both miscalculated, Holdo is judged by circumstances she could have known at the time while Finn is judged by circumstances he could not have. Omniscience is expected for Finn, but not for Holdo. And what’s more, not being omniscient makes Finn spiteful and hateful instead of, like, just not all-knowing.
You seem to have forgotten or misunderstood the role “thoughtles or reckless” played in my argument. That was not my first position, which was that he was making a noble sacrifice and there was no evidence he was acting out of hate, but rather a fallback position that even if we accept for the sake of argument (you know what that is, right?) that Finn’s suicide run was poorly planned, a position I don’t actually agree with, that at best makes him a bad planner and not automatically hateful. I was pointing out that even if you’re right about the sacrifice being needless, it doesn’t support your (or Rose’s) conclusion that he was being hateful.
But Finn wasn’t trying to destroy. He was trying to defend, much as Poe was. That’s another reason Rose’s line was dumb, by the way, because there is no clear line between destroying and defending when you’re being attacked by an enemy that’s trying to annihilate you. There’s a famous case of someone trying to apply pacifism toward fascists in our own world, but Neville Chamberlain doesn’t get the best rap unfortunately.
Why he’s not getting more work? My dad said that Mark Hamill was
in a lot of real flops after SW whereas Harrison went on to be the big
star, and Mark sort of drifted into other things like voice work. I
really don’t want that for John. I just feel like maybe being in SW
might have hurt rather than helped him because they said Finn was the co
lead and he’s treated like the second string in TLJ. Idk, I am just not
happy that he’s not getting the opportunities others in that franchise
are (2/2)
There could be a lot of different reasons, and I’m not worried. I think John has been smart about his career, doing other jobs between SW movies so that he won’t be associated exclusively with Finn. He may have gotten some advice there; one reason Mark’s acting career didn’t work out so well was because he was too strongly associated with Luke. I know he missed out on at least one musical role for that reason.
It’s simply not true that John can only get commercials. He’s been in other movies, he’s been in plays. It could be that he’s negotiating deals, or maybe he’s focused on other things at the moment. We already know his ambitions are bigger than acting–he wants to create
opportunities for others as well through his production company.
So yeah, just because we’re not hearing about work he’s doing right now doesn’t mean he isn’t working, or isn’t getting opportunities. I think he’s preparing things that will amaze us down the line, whether it’s as an actor, producer, or otherwise.
(And I’m not sure what you mean about Adam winning an Oscar this year? For his work in the upcoming Spike Lee film? I’d be happy for him if he does, but it is not possible for anyone to win an Oscar this year, that would be in February 2019 for films opening in 2018.)
I actually think John’s career has been going well. Especially compared to some of his co-Stars. I just think John is choosing the right things so that his face is known not only critically but also in a main stream way.
John was in the critically acclaimed movie Detroit by Kathryn Bigelow and had his performance praised for it.
And while Pacific Rim didn’t receive the praise the original did, the film made a profit, had its sequel greenlit and John was said all around to be the best part of the movie and proved he can be THE leading man.
Plus John has been spending his time getting to know the right people in the business and also supporting his friends in the business.
I really don’t think it’s a stretch to think that John will eventually be joining the MCU soon since he was in the running for getting in the Black Panther. I’ll bet he’s even gonna he in the sequel.
If anything I think Daisy will have the harder time and might suffer from the same problem Mark did. Which what happen to Mark was a shame because he was a damn fine actor, but back then Hollywood was looming for the Harrison Ford type. Not woman like Carrie who were outspoken or Mark who wasn’t you’re typical masculine man.
John is trying to avoid what happens to a lot of actors in big franchises, and that’s not getting type cast. So he’s picking good roles that display his talents but also get him recognition. It would help his career greatly though now that JJ is back. I can honestly say John gave it his all in TLJ.
If there is anything to love about the dumpster fire that was TLJ and Finn’s story arc is that John was fucking amazing in every scene he was in.
John was everything from comedic to hauntingly serious and I hope JJ delivers with bringing Finn back to the leading role in ep 9.
JJ told John he’s the new star of Star Wars and he’d better deliver on that promise. Personally I think a large part of the reason he came back for IX was for John/Finn’s sake.
Yeah considering how close JJ is with John and Daisy I wouldn’t be surprised if he came back for them. Like I’m sure having your story hijacked is frustrating, but I imagine seeing these two new kids you hired being wasted and suffering professionally because you left would be more upsetting. The fact that Daisy cried when she heard he was coming back says a lot about their relationship.
For the actual quotes if anyone wants to read them:
Here’s John’s statement:
And JJ’s
JJ Abrams pretty much started John and Daisy’s career and are close friends with as well.
It’s no secret that Daisy had reported that she was having trouble on set and John’s enthusiasm seemed to only be bts of hanging out on set.
JJ Abrams more than likely not only wanted to save the story and characters HE created, but protect the actors he cares about.
To add further to my reply, JJ Abrams is not only a protégé of Steven Spielberg, but of George Lucas.
While writing The Force Awakens, JJ sat down with George and Spoke with him, got his advice on where to take these characters and what to do with them. There is a reason why so many of the characters in TFA seem like they were based from legends, that’s because they were.
Jaina Solo and Ben Skywalker were the template for Rey
Kyle Katarn and Finn Galfridian were the template for Finn
And Jacen Solo was the template for Ben Solo/Kylo Ren.
JJ Abrams knew what he was doing. If there was anyone who you would want to do episode nine, it would be him and I’m happy he’s back.
This warms my heart. Also the return of the JJ shows the idea that LF is totally happy with RJ for the bullshit it is. Like Daisy said, RJ was the logical and expected choice for IX after Jurassic guy was gone. Why get–or accept–JJ back if RJ could just pick up where he left off?
1. Tfw a reylow shipper uses a legal term–one redefined by the Bush administration to authorize torture–to justify wiping out an entire village. No, people don’t just “die” in SW, they are killed for justifiable or unjustifiable reasons and the village massacre was clearly unjustifiable. The massacre of Tuanul was also a direct callback to the Holocaust in a movie written and directed by Jewish creators, and yes, the Jewish and Romani villagers in these villages fought back which, according to you, would makes them enemy combatants and thus the Nazis justified in killing them for the crime of defending themselves and their children 🙂 fuck you 🙂
A further fuck you from an international law scholar because the term “enemy combatant” has NEVER EVER meant you can kill people after disarming them and rounding them up, which is what Ren did. The term is one used under the Geneva Conventions to define who could be imprisoned as a prisoner of war, who had rights including the right not to be KILLED OR TORTURED. Not even the Bush admin went so far as to argue they could kill “enemy combatant” prisoners out of hand, holy shit. You fucking heartless, dangerously disingenuous ignoramus.
2. Quite aside from the all sorts of fucked up erasure and dismissal in that comment, it’s amazing that the very crimes that made the Nazis so infamous, like mass murder, torture, and genocide, are fine when non-Nazis do it! Whew! Who knew one set of rules applied to Nazis and different rules to everyone else? Glad we cleared that up.
@starawr thought I should let you know about this, since OP here doesn’t have the guts to tag you apparently, even though she has your blog name on full display so she and her followers can mock you behind your back.
Thanks for letting me know @hothmess. Wow, where to start…
For context, here’s the (MONTHS-OLD) conversation between me, @bai-xue and @decoffinated which @lj-writes dug up to stir some drama:
And because of this conversation, OP accused me of Holocaust apologism, nazi apologism, war crime apologism, torture apologism, etc:
So, let me see if I can follow OP’s logic:
10+ years ago, Bush redefined “enemy combatant” for his own purposes, and that changed the plain meaning of the words “enemy combatant” all over the world, I suppose. According to OP the International Law Scholar (lmao), the phrase “enemy combatant” must now mean whatever the fuck Bush wanted it to mean. Instead of, idk, the plain and obvious meaning of the words.
OP says that Kylo Ren, a fictional space wizard and his fictional stormtroopers, have breached the Geneva Convention by killing villagers. Obviously, according to OP the International Law Scholar, this means that if you support Kylo, you’d also support every possible real-world breach of the Geneva Convention, such as Nazis killing Jewish and Romani villagers.
Everyone who supports Kylo also supports Nazi war crimes now! Also, the Bush administration, I suppose. (Now that’s a new one.)
(Oh, and you know what’s really funny about all this? OP and I had a pretty civil conversation about Black Panther’s reception in China a few months back. So OP knows that I’m Chinese, and that I’d have no reason to know or care whatever the fuck Bush got up to a decade ago:)
But hey, I guess I’m worse than Bush because I don’t care that my favourite space wizard killed a bunch of fictional space villagers in a star war ¯_(ツ)_/ ¯
Imagine having this little reading comprehension/strawmanning this hard to “win” in one’s own mind. Obviously the term “enemy combatant” does not mean what Bush said it means, that was my point. The point, since it flew over @starawr ’s head or they chose to ignore it, is that the moment someone starts to use it to mean “it’s ok to do whatever the fuck you want to people” they’re going into some terrifying Bush-style territory–a worse twisting of the term, as I said, because they took the meaning way further.
Nor do I think this person necessarily cares about Bush, I just think they’re a big enough idiot to parrot American war crimes apologist rhetoric that’s rampant in their particular echo chamber. At what point in their study of the Geneva Conventions or world news did they pick up that very specific term, I wonder, and if so how did they get it so terrifyingly wrong? Nah, either they picked it up from fandom without the faintest idea of what it actually means, or they just independently decided to distort the hell out of a real world term to justify a fictional character’s actions.
Look how adorable they are, retreating from their point because they can’t defend it! If they really thought being fictional made real world morals irrelevant, they could have said that instead of, idk, bringing in very fraught real life terms and attempting to justify crimes that draw directly from very real and traumatic history. If they’re going to stand by a repugnant point at least they could have the courage of their convictions lol. Typical disingenuous, passive aggressive reylow bullshit.
And I won’t even try to explain tagging etiquette to them smh, or the fact that some of my followers might not want to be exposed to the kind of rhetoric they were spouting. Understanding this requires they have any kind of consideration for systematically marginalized people’s trauma, and that’s too much to expect of them.
Oh lookit, @starawr blocked me, taking their reply and mine out of the thread. Probably hopes to make it look like I blocked them lol. Anyway, if you’re interested in the actual “conversation” that took place here it is above this addition.
1. Tfw a reylow shipper uses a legal term–one redefined by the Bush administration to authorize torture–to justify wiping out an entire village. No, people don’t just “die” in SW, they are killed for justifiable or unjustifiable reasons and the village massacre was clearly unjustifiable. The massacre of Tuanul was also a direct callback to the Holocaust in a movie written and directed by Jewish creators, and yes, the Jewish and Romani villagers in these villages fought back which, according to you, would makes them enemy combatants and thus the Nazis justified in killing them for the crime of defending themselves and their children 🙂 fuck you 🙂
A further fuck you from an international law scholar because the term “enemy combatant” has NEVER EVER meant you can kill people after disarming them and rounding them up, which is what Ren did. The term is one used under the Geneva Conventions to define who could be imprisoned as a prisoner of war, who had rights including the right not to be KILLED OR TORTURED. Not even the Bush admin went so far as to argue they could kill “enemy combatant” prisoners out of hand, holy shit. You fucking heartless, dangerously disingenuous ignoramus.
2. Quite aside from the all sorts of fucked up erasure and dismissal in that comment, it’s amazing that the very crimes that made the Nazis so infamous, like mass murder, torture, and genocide, are fine when non-Nazis do it! Whew! Who knew one set of rules applied to Nazis and different rules to everyone else? Glad we cleared that up.
@starawr thought I should let you know about this, since OP here doesn’t have the guts to tag you apparently, even though she has your blog name on full display so she and her followers can mock you behind your back.
Thanks for letting me know @hothmess. Wow, where to start…
For context, here’s the (MONTHS-OLD) conversation between me, @bai-xue and @decoffinated which @lj-writes dug up to stir some drama:
And because of this conversation, OP accused me of Holocaust apologism, nazi apologism, war crime apologism, torture apologism, etc:
So, let me see if I can follow OP’s logic:
10+ years ago, Bush redefined “enemy combatant” for his own purposes, and that changed the plain meaning of the words “enemy combatant” all over the world, I suppose. According to OP the International Law Scholar (lmao), the phrase “enemy combatant” must now mean whatever the fuck Bush wanted it to mean. Instead of, idk, the plain and obvious meaning of the words.
OP says that Kylo Ren, a fictional space wizard and his fictional stormtroopers, have breached the Geneva Convention by killing villagers. Obviously, according to OP the International Law Scholar, this means that if you support Kylo, you’d also support every possible real-world breach of the Geneva Convention, such as Nazis killing Jewish and Romani villagers.
Everyone who supports Kylo also supports Nazi war crimes now! Also, the Bush administration, I suppose. (Now that’s a new one.)
(Oh, and you know what’s really funny about all this? OP and I had a pretty civil conversation about Black Panther’s reception in China a few months back. So OP knows that I’m Chinese, and that I’d have no reason to know or care whatever the fuck Bush got up to a decade ago:)
But hey, I guess I’m worse than Bush because I don’t care that my favourite space wizard killed a bunch of fictional space villagers in a star war ¯_(ツ)_/ ¯
Imagine having this little reading comprehension/strawmanning this hard to “win” in one’s own mind. Obviously the term “enemy combatant” does not mean what Bush said it means, that was my point. The point, since it flew over @starawr ’s head or they chose to ignore it, is that the moment someone starts to use it to mean “it’s ok to do whatever the fuck you want to people” they’re going into some terrifying Bush-style territory–a worse twisting of the term, as I said, because they took the meaning way further.
Nor do I think this person necessarily cares about Bush, I just think they’re a big enough idiot to parrot American war crimes apologist rhetoric that’s rampant in their particular echo chamber. At what point in their study of the Geneva Conventions or world news did they pick up that very specific term, I wonder, and if so how did they get it so terrifyingly wrong? Nah, either they picked it up from fandom without the faintest idea of what it actually means, or they just independently decided to distort the hell out of a real world term to justify a fictional character’s actions.
Look how adorable they are, retreating from their point because they can’t defend it! If they really thought being fictional made real world morals irrelevant, they could have said that instead of, idk, bringing in very fraught real life terms and attempting to justify crimes that draw directly from very real and traumatic history. If they’re going to stand by a repugnant point at least they could have the courage of their convictions lol. Typical disingenuous, passive aggressive reylow bullshit.
And I won’t even try to explain tagging etiquette to them smh, or the fact that some of my followers might not want to be exposed to the kind of rhetoric they were spouting. Understanding this requires they have any kind of consideration for systematically marginalized people’s trauma, and that’s too much to expect of them.
Remember the time Leia electrocuted Han for leaving the Rebellion in A New Hope? God, that scene was so funny. Remember also how she punched Han across the room as he was recovering from being frozen in Return of the Jedi? A total laugh riot. What a wacky, endearing character!
These things didn’t happen, of course, because it would have been completely off in tone and made Leia look like a weirdo. It would have cheapened Han’s character and the story as a whole.
So why is it okay for Finn, and why are viewers falling over themselves trying to find excuses for Rose? “She lost her sister-” Leia lost her planet. Next excuse.
I’m not saying you’re a Bad Racist Person if you liked The Last Jedi. I hope you enjoyed it and it rekindled your love of the franchise. That’s what we’re all here for, the fun and joy of loving these adventures.
I’m saying that Hollywood and audiences alike have a bias when it comes to whose pain is given respect and whose pain can be played for a laugh. And that bias is not only hurtful to fans caught on the wrong side of the empathy gap, it also hurts the quality and integrity of the works themselves.
It’s possible to love a work and also see how others might not feel the same way about it. Being a fan doesn’t mean you have to be a dismissive jerk or wilfully deny a work’s flaws. It’s fun to be a fan, but it’s imperative to be a person.
You know, it’s amazing how bad things can sound when you take the context out of them. It’s amazing how you talk about being critical about things you like, similar to how a rational person would, when you’ve been on an Anti-Rose-Tico tirade since before you even saw the movie – if you’ve even seen it at all at this point.
Anyway, so, Rose is positioned – presumably by a superior – to guard the escape pods from deserters. These deserters could likely be trained fighters, so they give the mechanic Rose – who probably isn’t that good at hand-to-hand combat – a weapon: a stun gun. Harmless in the long run, it knocks out its victims for a brief period of time, enough time for Rose to get any would-be deserters to superiors to be dealt with. Makes sense, right?
So this guy – Finn – comes by near the pods. Rose has had to stun several people by this point, but she’s cool with Finn. She doesn’t know him, but, after all, he’s a Resistance hero, who bravely risked his life to fight against his former captors, and was quite skilled at it too, and – is that a bag?
She stuns him after pitiful excuses, like “it’s not what it looks like!”, and “i mean, i was planning on leaving, but not deserting, i swear!”. She’s heard it all before, presumably. And this Finn character – she doesn’t know him, and has no reason to trust that he was actually trying to help the Resistance.
She did her job and stopped who, to the best of her knowledge, was a deserter, and, somehow, she’s a villain for that? Anti-black? Extremely violent? That’s a pitiful claim, too.
And she punched him across the room – when, how? I may have just forgotten, and, if that, please explain to me when that happened. But somehow, the description seems unlikely.
There’s one more claim to address, though – your claim that her crashing into Finn to stop him from committing a pointless heroic sacrifice was violent. What else was she supposed to do – watch Finn kill himself in a pointless endeavor that had more loss than gain; wave her arms and hope he stopped; or take charge of the situation to save her friend? You chose!
There’s being critical of a franchise, and then there’s downright being hateful, hypocritical and mocking people who hold a different opinion on your blog. Hint: you’re not the former.
Oh hey, everyone, criticizing the way Rose is written is now being anti Rose! Like, don’t think I can’t see you using a female Asian character to shield a white dude’s writing decisions from criticism.
You know what you sound iike? You sound like one of those dudebros who get suuuuper defensive about sexual objectification in video games and comics, saying shit like, “Of course her tits were hanging out, she was in hand-to-hand combat against a claw monster with a lactation fetish! Do you expect her clothes to be all pristine and intact after that?!”
News flash: The context does not grow out of the earth. Rian Johnson wrote it and specifically cooked up a situation that “justified” Rose tasing Finn. Even worse, he played it for a laugh. That answers the speeder crash part, too. Johnson also made it so that Rose “had” to crash her vehicle into Finn’s.
And even in the situation you mention the tasing doesn’t hold up because Finn is–guess what? Not a Resistance member. Hence, he can’t be a deserter. He was a free agent who did more for the Resistance than anyone could be expected to, and was receiving medical care from them as a result.
This is specifically why I compared him to Han at the end of ANH because Han, too, was an outsider. Unlike Han Finn wasn’t even trying to leave the Resistance for good, he was trying to protect two of its major allies, Rey and by extension Luke.
And like, thanks for making your own racism crystal clear by calling Finn’s reasons “pitiful excuses.” I’m sure you’ll sound so much braver and more coherent when someone’s menacingly waving a weapon at you that causes excruciating pain.
You also directly contradict yourself by saying that Rose was cool with Finn because of the way he bravely risked his life and then, in the next breath, saying she doesn’t know him and has no reason to trust him. Like, even to listen for half a fucking second?
And yes, it’s antiblack as fuck to contrive a situation to make a Black character suffer and pass out for no good story and character reason, and to play his pain for laughs. It cheapens Finn’s character arc because he didn’t get to make a choice to stay the way Han came back of his own free choice. Finn spent his entire life being controlled by pain and fear, and at Rose’s hands he gets more of the same.
By Leia punching a recovering Han I was referring to Rose making Finn, who had just recovered from a life-threatening injury, fly backward with the taser.
The op was like literally the mildest possible critique of the tasing incident yet here you are on my post, choosing to be hyperdefensive and fragile about it. I guess the exhortation to have some empathy really does sound like a threat to some people.
Well, first of all,
Yes, tagging something anti Rose, does mean, that, in fact, your post is being titled by you, the writer, as anti Rose! So, guess you’re just criticizing yourself at this point.
And nice job spending around ¼ of your rebuttal criticizing me as a person instead of my argument! I just think it really shows the lack of strength in a person’s debate if they can’t even scrounge up a few measly criticisms on my actual argument, but, instead, spend their time comforting themselves by changing my gender and adding 20+ years to my age so they can think that, at least, they’re not the loser living in their mom’s basement.
And what, Johnson specifically writes situations to put Finn in pain? He thought, Hey, why don’t I stun Finn, cause’ I hate him, but, oh, how? I got it! I’ll make it so he attempts to leave the Resistance and gets stunned by Rose! It sure is fun writing a significant scene that introduces a new main character and starts a new sub plot based specifically on causing one character pain! I love ruining Star Wars!
And I also guess literally any other use of stunning (which, in the Star Wars universe, is a heck of a lot, and in The Last Jedi, a decent of a lot, since it was established as a weapon early in the film that then justified its use later in the movie while also making sure the audience wasn’t jarred by the sudden use of a completely new weapon in an important battle – hey! another reason why Finn could have been stunned by Rose!) is also racist and made by Johnson specifically to hurt characters! Wow, amazing how stupid that sounds!
And maybe, just maybe, Rose crashing into Finn to save him from sacrificing himself was a culmination of the human life vs. military gains debate that had been raging throughout the entire movie since the death of the bomber squad to take out the dreadnought as well as showing how Rose, despite not being able to save her sister, took the chance to save another one of her loved ones at great personal risk. Because, let me remind you, Finn was fine after the crash, being able to run and walk around immediately after, while Rose was the one bloodied up and needing medical care.
And considering Finn was kept with the Resistance and fought for their causes, it may seem to a low-level mechanic that he was, in fact, a member of the Resistance! Shocker what we can discover when we look at what a character would know in context of the story, and not what we, the audience, knows.
Also, nice job on having zero reading comprehension skills, since it’s quite clear that “pitiful excuses” is referring to Finn’s failed attempts to explain to Rose why he was leaving through Rose’s eyes and not his actual reasons for leaving. And how is that even racist? Isn’t something racist supposed to relate to the race of a character, like, say, making an assumption based on their race? Cause, please, I fail to see how saying Finn did a poor job of explaining himself is racist.
And Rose knew Finn at that point similar to how someone like me knows Ryan Gosling. A celebrity, maybe someone you adore? Sure! But not someone you would place the same amount of trust in as a friend or family member.
And why would you make a reference to the same thing twice in different ways? Literally just make your one reference and go, don’t make it seem like you’re referring to two different situations.
And nice job dodging the fact that you started hurling criticisms at this movie before you even saw it. After all, how can someone construct a thorough review on something they didn’t even see?
That’s…. your supposed gotcha? I don’t know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you. It’s called tagging etiquette, keeping critical content out of the character tags. “Anti” is just one of the tag conventions for such posts.
You sound like a dudebro =/= you are a dudebro. I’m not even sure where the age thing comes from, dudebros are YOUNG guys between 16 and 25. Is this your way of telling me you’re a fetus? #PlotTwist
It doesn’t matter what Johnson’s specific intention was, the impact is what you described in italics. (A very apt summary, thank you.)
Since it looks like you stopped reading everything in the paragraph after “dudebro,” let me elaborate on that comparison. Let’s say I had a female character get into a fight and had her breasts hanging out of her torn clothes as a result, and treated that visual in a very sexual way. It doesn’t matter whether I started out intending to objectify her, it’s still objectification and it’s still sexist. I wrote the plot that would lead to the character’s breasts being exposed and sexualized, and I don’t get a pass for that.
The same goes for the tasing and crash scenes, somehow Johnson didn’t write scenes so that Finn could have his own realizations and make his own crucial choices but rather had to be hurt “for his own good” and I find that objectionable.
You might want to look up what “implicit bias” is. I was pointing out the seeming contempt for Finn in a situation where he was clearly scared of having more pain inflicted on him. How’s that for an empathy gap?
I guess I assumed that people who saw the movie would remember that Finn went flying across the room because it’s uhhh rather memorable? I mean it looks like the couple hundred people in the notes got it without any problem.
On a side note, human lives vs. military gains is such an odd way to frame that scene because I think the Resistance who were going to be killed by the FO also consists of human and also alien beings?
You seem pretty well acquainted with my recent blogging history, not to mention really fucken’ obsessed with my media consumption like a few anons I was getting a while back. As I told one of those anons, if you don’t like how or at what point I’m talking about a movie you’re free to ignore me? I keep my TLJ-critical posts out of the main tag and the character tags so it shouldn’t be hard to do.
Thanks for missing the point of every single one of my arguments and instead focusing on very minor points! Seriously, “you’re a fetus”? I’m so hurt.
And, no, “anti” in the context of tumblr 2017 very specifically means you are “anti” or against said thing. I’m sure you know that by now.
And how about I put it this way? A female character getting her breasts exposed serves no other purpose than to provide fan service for those who swing that way. Finn getting stunned, however, A: moves the plot forward (without Finn being restrained in some way, he would have left and thus not be able to travel to Canto Bight and make all those revelations and character revelations and connect with Rose…etc. Finn is rather headstrong, and if he could have, he would have escaped to make sure Rey was safe, not sit around and play story-time with Rose if she did not pose an immediate threat to his plan. He was under a time crunch, after all) B: puts the stun gun as a weapon in the audience’s mind, thus setting up all the other uses of it throughout the film (like Leia stopping Poe’s mutiny) and C: establishes Rose’s allegiance to the Resistance as well as, despite her being introduced crying, do-what-you-got-to-do attitude.
And how do I show contempt for Finn? Do I say he’s stupid? A bad person? I said he gave poorly-word excuses. No need to blow it out of proportion.
Okay, how about this: humans-and-sentient-creatures-who-are-often-humanoid lives vs. military gains. Better?
Also:
“I keep my TLJ-critical posts out of the main tag and the character tags so it shouldn’t be hard to do.”
Can you at least make up a better lie?
in other words, you didn’t know what a dudebro is and got mad at me for your own ignorance. Okay.
Are you saying I should use the Rose Tico tag with content critical of Rose? But then you’d be mad at me for crosstagging. As the late Admiral Ackbar said, “It’s a trap!”
So it’s not racist at all to have a Black character repeatedly hurt for humor and to take away his agency as long as there’s a plot purpose. Okay. Never mind that the plot could have been written in a completely different way. Obviously this was the only possible plot and Rian Johnson was forced to make choices that humiliated Finn.
You show contempt for Finn by talking about how pitiful his excuses are without the least empathy for his pain and fear. I mean you don’t even remember the part where he flew across the room and hit the wound on his back, which tells me how little his pain matters to you.
Since I must evidently spell every single thing out, I’m saying Rose stopping Finn was not a case of choosing lives over military gain because she condemned Resistance members, who are sentient beings, to death.
I laughed so long and hard at your “receipt” and had to reblog it for posterity because… how to break it to you? Tags to additions don’t show up in the main tags. They’re only relevant to my blog. The tags of my op, which you also faithfully screenshotted a few posts up, clearly show me staying out of the main and character tags. (I used #star wars because I assume it’s such a big and unfocused tag that no one really uses that to browse, but I can take it out or move it to the back so it won’t be searchable as tagged.) This is yet another case of you being mad at me for your own ignorance. Nice coloring job, though.
I really think you’re the one who should be checked for their reading comprehension skills. Especially since your argument keeps flip-flopping as you try to avoid debating what I’m saying.
Maybe use Rose critical, like you do your last jedi tag? I’m sure you’re smart, you can think of something.
And I’ll think I’ll quote what I said, since I have to evidently spell everything out for you.
She doesn’t know him, but, after all, he’s a Resistance hero, who bravely risked his life to fight against his former captors, and was quite skilled at it too, and – is that a bag?
She stuns him after pitiful excuses, like “it’s not what it looks like!”, and “i mean, i was planning on leaving, but not deserting, i swear!”. She’s heard it all before, presumably. And this Finn character – she doesn’t know him, and has no reason to trust that he was actually trying to help the Resistance.
First, it’s from the viewpoint of Rose in that moment (once again, assuming what the character would know, not the audience) and she has just spotted him trying to leave in a pod, after several other people – deserters – has also tried. He fails to explain his actions in a clear-cut manner under pressure, and thus, she would find those excuses “pitiful”, since it would seem similar to a many poor excuses thrown to her by deserters. She has also done this many times, and is understandably angry that many who had pledged themselves to the cause are now escaping like cowards when her sister had died for it.
Now, I’m sorry I did not unnecessarily bring my own personal thoughts of this moment into the paragraph, since apparently you need assurance on the moral fiber of my character. Here you go: I don’t hate Finn. I do not think his reasons for leaving were somehow sad or pathetic, but a natural extension of his loyalties and thought process seen thus far. I do not think he was trying to desert, or that he had sworn loyalty to the Resistance. I also do not think it is somehow sad that Finn failed to articulate his thoughts clearly under pressure, cause literally everyone does that. Are you happy, and will stop trying to derail my main point by making unnecessary accusations on my character now?
I’m also sorry for not remembering every minute detail of this movie that, at the time, I have no reference for while writing this considering it’s still in theaters.
Also, come on. I have explained to you in great detail why A: It is wrong to characterize Rose as violent or bad by her stunning Finn, and B: What purpose that scene did for that movie, as well as what purpose the stun gun, specifically, being included served. Yet, you persist. I just. Can’t continue repeating what I’ve been saying.
And, really, what you’re saying is false? This scene is literally the only one where A: Finn is hurt by an ally (I already explained the crash scene, just scroll up), and B: when it’s played for humor (? I don’t remember this being played for humor, but, I’ll trust you? Ugh). Hardly repeatedly.
Anyway, take his agency away, hardly. He eventually makes a new plan with Rose, of his own will. While saving Rey was noble, it was selfish and a hasty decision, as it placed his attachment to her over what she wanted to do, which was to return and help the Resistance (she didn’t even know Finn had the locator, she thought it was still with Leia) as well as place the Resistance in further danger, as it is (actually) repeatedly stated that they need Luke (who Rey was going to bring) to change the tide of the war.
And Finn and the rest of the pilot were told specifically to pull back by their leaders in that scene, as they determined it was an ultimately useless move as many pilots were being gunned down and that (say it with me now) the loss of lives was outweighing the need to take down the blaster. Finn continuing was not only disobeying orders, but putting an important member of the Resistance in danger for an, ultimately, futile quest.
You also tagged it rebelfinn in your original post which is, sorry to break it to you, a main character tag.
Thanks for the coloring compliment too, and do think it’s quite aesthetically pleasing! (Yes, I know that was sarcasm. The former was too).
And maybe insult me to my face, instead of hiding in the tags?
You’re saying the exact same content can be tagged “critical” and I wouldn’t be anti-Rose? Like, your sole basis for saying I’m anti Rose is for tag wording choice? Cool, I can change the tag.
Re empathy with Finn, you seem to be saying that Rose can’t empathize with Finn’s fear in that moment, that she has only contempt and anger for him and put an injured man through excruciating pain. With fans like these, who needs antis?
Your focus is so narrow that you are unable to comprehend what I’m saying. The scene was not some force of nature that had to happen, it was in there because Rian Johnson, the writer, wanted it to be in there. By your own admission it wasn’t necessary for even the story as it currently exists, because Finn came around to helping the Resistance of his own will and didn’t have to be hurt or made unconscious. I think that was bad and unnecessary and yes, his pain was portrayed as humorous where it didn’t have to be. There was no story purpose for that and it was very, very uncomfortable for many viewers, particularly Black audiences.
I think you should look up what passive voice is. When I said Finn was repeatedly hurt for laughs I didn’t mean just him being hurt by allies, I meant things like his literal first appearance after falling into a coma being falling out of bed. Like, holy goalpost moving, Batman.
Umm after Rose stopped Finn the cannon blasted a hole in the Resistance’s defenses and they were sitting ducks. Maybe Finn wasn’t acting out of hatred like Rose said, maybe he wanted to save lives? Or something? The dichotomy you posited doesn’t really work for that scene.
I tagged it rebelfinn because it’s about Finn, lmao. Those who don’t want to see Rose-critical content in the Finn tag can filter #anti rose tico and #rose tico critical. See how that works? But, you know, nice job wanting to drive Finn content out of the Finn tags. That makes a whole lot of sense.
How the hell does mocking you in my tags constitute hiding when you’ve literally screenshotted them twice in this very thread? You seem to be as obsessed with my tags as you are with what media I consume. I meant for you to see those, so… enjoy.
This might be new to you, but two different words with two different meanings will, in fact, continue being two different words with two different meanings that will change a statement based on what word you use. Shocking, I know.
And maybe all the posts about how much of a shit character Rose is and how she perpetuates violence and abuses Finn gives off the impression that you’re anti Rose? :/.
And how about your goalpost moving, Batman? First we got “you’re racist”. Then we got “you hold Finn in contempt”. Then “Rose isn’t emphatic”. I can hardly type with all these words being shoved into my mouth.
And, I don’t know, maybe Rose doesn’t have to immediately emphasize with someone whose is, to her, a celebrity abandoning his cause when stuff starts getting bad as she is grieving for her sister that recently died for said cause? I know, I know, once again, characters will not and it is illogical for them to have the same perception and emotions about a character than an audience will.
And Finn literally tripped in some wires. My God, I’ve been missing it all along! A character tripping or otherwise being clumsy has never ever been played for humor before and certainty not in this movie too! Those times Rey blasted a hole in the hut’s wall; when the fish people’s cart was knocked over by a boulder; Hux flying into a wall; Kylo Ren utterly failing every time he tried to even lay a hand on Luke! It can’t just be a classic example of humor that has dated back from the Three Stooges days! It’s got to mean something! Something with racism, I’m sure!
Anyway, buddy, Finn tripping in some wires would mean something if A: He was solely/frequently used for humorous purposes in that manner, or like the stunning scene, which, still not sure was 100% humor, B: He was the only character used in this manner/frequency, or any other character used in this manner were POC, and C: Clumsy/Bumbling moments were defining traits or framed in a way to make him appear less competent than the other main characters. Considering none of these apply, I’m going with D: You’re overreacting.
Also a decision made out of free will ≠ cannot being influenced by other factors. I’ll give you something that was, once again, already stated in my posts, but needs to be restated for you. Finn made a decision he believed was right, and, being very determined about said cause and headstrong, wanted to do said decision, immediately, without talking to anyone about it. He was ready to leave, and when Rose started opposing him, started to leave, but faster. He wasn’t gonna sit down and listen, no way, cause he was on a time crunch. With Rose physically restraining him and putting him a position where he had to explain what he was doing, it led to said decision being debated, and alternative, more permanent solution being proposed (aka keep Rey away from danger in Resistance, to get Resistance out of danger). Finn takes to this and also modifies and ultimately proposes said new plan to Poe. Thus, he changed his mind out of his own free will, but said situation didn’t pop up until it was influenced to do so. Amazing.
And please point me to some mainstream audiences who have a problem with it? Cause’ the only people I see who do is a small portion of the already niche tumblr audience, who also happen to be fanatic finnrey shippers and thus, considering Rose kissed Finn, seem to already have a reason why they would try to hate Rose. Cause in tumblr, you can’t just dislike something! You can’t just say “this makes me uncomfortable”! You gotta have a reason that relates to social justice in some way so you also get to call your opponents nasty names and be morally justified for it!
I don’t even know why you’re debating why Finn should live and why a sacrifice he was making for a canceled mission shouldn’t happen and that Rose isn’t somehow a violent character for stopping him.
And the importance of the scene is that it is a freakin’ parallel. Poe ignores orders to stop mission to destroy important FO weapon. Many bombers die before said mission is completed. Poe encourages bomber (Paige Tico) to risk like (unknowingly on risk life part, of course) to stop said weapon. Is ultimately determined by superior officer (Leia) that the loss was not worth the gain.
In the cannon scene, Poe calls off mission to take out important FO weapon after heavy loss of fighters, determining the loss was not worth the gain. A lone fighter (Finn) ignores said orders to take out the weapon, is then stopped by Paige’s sister (Rose). Boom, done, we can all go home now.
“I keep my TLJ-critical posts out of the main tag and the character tags.’
“…Me staying out of the main and character tags…”
Guess what? Rebelfinn is a main character tag, and you don’t get to redefine what you’ve been saying this entire time to say “gotcha!” and go jerk off in your personal tags on your reblog cause your ego is so desperate for a lift that literally seeing the next post on your blog counts as an obsession now.
And you know what? Acting like you’ve got a moral highground for complaining about characters in a movie you haven’t seen is sad. And I’ll bring your lack of knowledge on this movie up as many times as you try to mock it as an irrelevant point, cause, hey, you don’t need to see a movie to review it!
Oh, looks like I’d missed this in my notes. I’m bored so lemme shoot some fish in a barrel.
I mean people might actually want to filter certain tags and, in general, ‘anti X character’ is a more common convention than ‘X character critical,’ but comprehending that requires you actually have a sense of consideration and courtesy (or any idea how tumblr works) so I won’t expect so much of you.
Idk maybe questioning writing decisions is a legit thing and Rose was shittily written because RJ is a shitty writer? 😂 If you don’t think I was not excited about Rose or Finnrose pre-tlj you might want to check my rose tico and finnrose tags, since you like stalking my blog so much.
Thanks for pointing out that TLJ has a lot of shitty humor, though I don’t remember the wires part (god, what a painful movie to get through). And guess what? Despite your attempt to gerrymander the definition, similar tropes can be racist when applied to a character of color, especially when he’s treated unseriously in general, because there is actually such a thing as a history of media and cultural context.
I’m not talking about influence, I’m talking about violence. But thanks for playing!
You also really have to learn the difference between Doylian and Watsonian viewpoints and why derailing the former with the latter is an ass move. I’m ignoring your increasingly repetitive and boring attempts at deflection until you show an inkling of this basic concept.
Maybe don’t lie and try to pretend you got here through the rebelfinn tag lol. If you think that tag was free of tlj critique post-tlj, oh honey, I have news for you. It’s also a tag Finn stans created specifically to get away from people like you who salivate at the thought of him being hurt and humiliated.
Lack of knowledge of a movie is a pretty funny thing for you to be throwing around when you didn’t even remember Finn being thrown against a wall, lol. I guess it’s just that forgettable a movie. Also thanks for confirming your main interest is in mocking and harassing me despite the fact that you could easily have stayed away from tlj critical content and tags, I guess…?
As for mainstream critique of TLJ, acknowledgement of its divisive reception among fans for various different reasons is all over the web, so your idea that it’s just a Tumblr thing has no merit. You can find these articles easily by googling.
I thought I recognized this art so i looked at op’s blog
idk if y’all remember this homophobic mess of a comic. Granted people can change but op’s more recent stuff reflects the same views.
hi! wow, you have a good memory, this was almost a year ago!
I think you might have misinterpreted the comic. the joke was how she, an ace person, could forget something as obvious and familiar to other people as sexual attraction! I thought her reaction was so funny I suggested making a daily comic about it.
Lyd is my girlfriend! We’re in love! Passionate lesbian love. For four years now! Since that comic we moved in together and we’ve started building savings for our life together! We talk online (Twitter, we don’t really use tumblr) about struggles we face, homophobia, lesbian history and representation, and the intersection of being gay with being ace, not ace, gender conforming, and gender non-conforming. That comic you’re saying is homophobic might look like it to someone without the context of our life, and maybe it did cause a sapphic woman to feel alienated due to her sexual attraction. I understand that because I’ve felt that way many times from the words of both lgbt and non-lgbt people alike. But it was an accident, and while that can’t take away the damage, I promise that Lyd’s comics showing our happy life together, our posts online, even our youtube channel all do infinitely more good for fellow sapphic women and other lgbt people than this comic did bad. Lyd apologized for the misunderstandings and lack of clarity.
Please stop holding other lgbt people to an impossibly high standard. We have so many enemies in this world, the last thing we need is to be attacking each other for the smallest infractions.
– Meg, a lesbian
(we went on vacation together last week! 🙂 )
how tf is “allosexuals experience sexual attraction” homophobic
fuckin lesbophobic….lesbians makin comics about being lesbians…goddamn cishet ace lesbians /SMOLDERING GALAXY BRAIN TAKE, THANKS DISCOURSE
I wish these people thought for one second before typing.
I’m usually pretty good at brute forcing my way through confusing things, but I honestly cannot think of a way to interpret this comic or even the story that inspired it as being homophobic in any way, shape, or form. And plus, my heart melts at the line of ‘romance isn’t dead, it’s just very sleepy’.
I’m trying to twist it into being homophobic and it doesn’t…let alone being a “mess of homophobia”.
What if the rumor is true, and Kylo Ren is not only the primary villain of EpIX, but is also bald (as he was originally in EpVIII before RJ switched gears) and starting to resemble Snoke? I don’t trust leaks, but leaks about appearance tend to be more accurate than leaks about the plot (Like, who thought that Snoke wearing a gold robe was actually true when it leaked?). (As for Finn, he’s described as resembling “a gunslinger with two blaster pistols” – believable enough. He always was a great shot).
Some fans are saying that “Baldo Ren” is far too big of a risk for LF, that they need to keep him attractive for the women or face backlash. First of all, gtfo with the “women watch Star Wars for the hot guy” bs, I mean, really? Even if we frame it as empowerment that women can ogle men and not just the other way around, Finn and Poe are right there.
JJ liked TLJ, and TLJ set up Kylo as Supreme Leader, with Rey, Finn and Poe as the future of the “light,” of freedom from oppression and defiance of a return to old ways we should never to return to.
Is keeping Kylo “hot” really the important thing here?
But then, I thought Kylo’s appearance under the mask was meant to juxtapose the fact that he’s an evil man – the most dangerous evil has an attractive face, we really should understand that in a time when hate groups intentionally present as clean-cut, “respectable” boys next door.
Now that Kylo has crossed the line by killing Han and Snoke and becoming Supreme Leader, is it really so unfathomable that his outside will start catching up to his inside?
this is better than anything I’ve seen in years about Kylo
I’m not writing the story of Star Wars.
Adam Driver is fine with or without hair.
But I have a thought about this idea.
A story with Kylo Ren who becomes like Vader, without hair like Vader, bad like
Vader, without light like Vader.
I don’t know about you, but I’ve already seen this story!
Vader has already been there and died for his son’s love.
If they want to make a different story.
Vader’s nephew must choose love and not power.
And I’m not talking about romantic love….
Romantic love helps, but…
If we want to see a different story.
The story told in the galaxies.
The history of a galaxy so far away.
It can be like the Skywalker family, the family that could have all power in
their hands, saved the universe and chose love.
Kylo has already chosen power over love repeatedly.
Here’s the difference, and why Kylo Ren is not just a rehash of Darth Vader: Vader had little power in the scheme of things. The Emperor put him in a life support suit and had him do his bidding, so not to waste that Sith energy. Vader came from nothing, was told he was the chosen one, was taken from his mother, and he eventually fell out of fear for his family.
The contrast is clear: Anakin’s fall began when his beloved mother died, triggering grief and rage. Kylo tried to force the same end by killing his father with his own hand. Completely different, and it shows that Kylo is more dangerous, because he wants it so badly, not even realizing that his grandfather lost everything and essentially became enslaved again, by the Emperor and his life support suit, when he fell to the Sith.
Kylo Ren is a fraud in comparison. There’s no Sith. It’s all him consciously striving to be a “dark lord.” Snoke could not control him (this should be undeniable fact at this point). It’s all him, no dark forces compelling him and keeping him in its service. What’s scary is the he COULD choose not to commit evil, since there was no true fall to the Sith, but he doesn’t.
It’s actually a very different and compelling story compared to the villain “choose love” scenario. And, of course, the ST DOES have a “choose love” theme that is meaningful without being all about Kylo.
Vader? They’re going for a Darth Sidious post-RotS look if that art is anywhere close.
This’d fall nicely into line with a character who’s shown to want only power. In fact of all the Star Wars character on OT and PT, Sidious is the one Kylo resembles the most.
As @lj-writes and I have spoken off elsewhere, Finn, Rey and Kylo is a replay of the dynamics between Padmé, Anakin and Palpatine. With Finn and Padmé, Rey as Anakin and Kylo as Palpatine/Sidious.
Yes, if the prior two movies made anything clear it’s that there is no Vader in the sequel trilogy. Vader is who Rey could have been if she had not withstood Kylo’s manipulation, and could yet be if Kylo decides third time’s the charm and uses more effective leverage (it’s Finn, you fool). Kylo himself is no Vader, however. He is a wannabe Vader who wants the mystique and the power surrounding him. Vader’s drive was not power, though, but love and the loss of it. Power was just something he was born with, a curse he tried to leverage to get what he truly wanted, which was to protect Padmé. It was Palpatine, Vader’s abuser and master, who wanted power.
CW discussions of Nazis and neo-Nazis below.
This is another reason Kylo is a neo-Nazi analogue rather than a Nazi analogue. The Nazis at least emulated the German Empire, which was all kinds of evil but had actual achievements as a state like the unification of Germany and the creation of the modern German state. The neo-Nazis on the other hand looked at the Nazis’ lost war that devastated Europe, the gruesome industrialized genocide, and decided that’s what they wanted to be. Kylo similarly looked at the Galactic Empire’s genocide of his mother’s people, Vader’s mass murder of children and the torture of both Han and Leia, and decided that was what he wanted. Neo-Nazis are malcontent assholes who think throwing out repugnant keywords and gestures make them Nazis as opposed to the brutal efficiency of the German state machine the Nazis inherited from the German Empire. Similarly, Kylo Ren is such a try-hard poseur that he wore a mask he never needed and artificially created bereavement for himself, copying Vader’s trappings without the faintest idea of what Vader stood for or what made the man tick. Kylo Ren, like all neo-Nazis, is a cosplayer gone horribly wrong.
The fact that they’re laughable fakes doesn’t make neo-Nazis or Kylo any less dangerous, obviously. In fact it makes them more dangerous because their starting point was not to emulate greatness but to emulate evil. The Galactic Empire and the Nazis alike should have served as warnings, but instead they inspired copycats in the worst people.
Kylo Ren is no heir to the Skywalker legacy, not even Darth Vader’s. He is the heir to Palpatine. It’s up to Rey, Finn, and Poe to reclaim the Skywalker legacy, including the shadow and warning of Vader’s choices, and defeat fascism as Luke, Leia, Han, and Anakin did before them. That’s what makes it the Skywalker Saga, because it interrogates the true meaning of what it means to be a Skywalker. Is it blood or is it the choices people make? To make Kylo out to be the hero because of blood while disregarding the choices he has made would be to reaffirm the very blood supremacy Kylo Ren and his repulsive real-life counterparts espouse.
Or: How TLJ is RotS averted far more than RotJ subverted
At
the end of The Force Awakens we watched Finn and Rey both stand up to Kylo Ren for each other, effectively saving each other and
themselves from the Master of the Knights of Ren. When Rey was knocked
out Finn took up the lightsaber; when Finn was injured, Rey woke up to
his screams and snatched the lightsaber from Ren to defend Finn and
herself.
This dynamic takes place again in the climax of The
Last Jedi, except Finn and Rey were not in the same scene like they were
during the dueling sequence in TFA. in TLJ, though kept apart until
their heartwarming reunion hug, they saved each other through the
choices they made and what each meant to the other.
The A-plot of
TLJ has been called a subversion of Return of the Jedi, for good reason.
Rey attempts to bring Kylo Ren back to the light in scenes that are
some very direct callbacks to Luke and Vader in RotJ, except
Kylo Ren, unlike Vader, refuses Rey’s plea and rises to the position of Big Bad
instead.
TLJ is only primarily a subversion of RotJ if you focus
on Rey and Ren, however. If you broaden the focus to Rey, Finn, and Ren
and the dynamics between them, it is the tragic ending of Revenge of the
Sith averted.
Kylo as a parallel for Palpatine with Rey as Anakin makes so much more sense than Kylo as the new Anakin and Rey the new Padme. SO much more sense. If we learned one thing from Snoke’s surprisingly weak role in TLJ, it’s that Kylo was the manipulator, the one pulling the strings. It took nothing for him to kill Snoke and become Supreme Leader.
Vader never came close to being Emperor or anything of the sort. He died taking down the Emperor, even with his incredible power. If Snoke thought Kylo could be his Vader-esque attack dog, he miscalculated. Snoke was less powerful and possibly less evil than Kylo. Luke’s terror looking into Ben’s mind supports it.
Kylo miscalculated too, though – he’s not as sharp as Palpatine. He thought Rey’s weakness was her parentage and desire to have an “important” place in the story, some narcissistic projecting by Kylo. Her weakness was Finn. If he had told her that joining him would save Finn, things may have played out differently. Instead, Kylo acted as another challenge in her journey back to Finn. She was unsuccessful in “turning” him, but he was unsuccessful in diverting her journey the way Palpatine did with Anakin.
Wow. I never thought of that before, but I think you’re right @diversehighfantasy. I wonder if Kylo is just not bright or, ugh, as much as I HATE to think it, is attracted to Rey in some manner that the idea of doing that was repugnant to him. It’s not as if he doesn’t know Rey is still attached to Finn. It says right in the novelization that he knows she’s thinking about him. Palps hit Anakin’s weak spot in Padme. Kylo should have realized Rey’s weak spot was Finn. The idea that he didn’t take it suggests to me that he’s either dumber than a box of dog hair, or that there was some thought of making this some sort of stupid love triangle.
@diversehighfantasy Looking at the plot objectively, it really was Kylo manipulating everything to his advantage. By reeling Rey in as he did with a sob story and bringing her to Snoke’s flagship he:
– Established personal rapport with Rey and turned her against Luke
– Physically separated her from her allies in the Resistance, isolating her further
– Gained a distraction so he could kill Snoke
– Gained an ally in the fight against the Praetorian Guards, because the Knights of Ren were all on vacation or something
– Gained a patsy to blame Snoke’s death on
– Had the perfect opportunity to exploit Rey’s psychological weakness and bring her to his side, except he chose the wrong hook like the elitist narcissist he is
– Rose to the position of Supreme Ruler
An alternative theory: Space Hugh Hefner doesn’t look that hot himself, he seems ill and in pain. It’s possible that he did not have that long to live, so maybe this was his twisted idea of a succession. Was KR scheming and ruthless enough to kill and succeed him? Or would Hux take that position instead? This is the kind of thing Hitler actually did, pitting his senior staff against each other, minus the death wish part (that came later).
Holy shit, was this what Snoke meant at the end of TFA by completing Kylo’s training? If not what JJ intended, then at least what RJ made of it? Kylo had passed the test of killing what he loved; was it time for his final test, to learn to scheme and manipulate and take power? And did Kylo actually realizethis on some level when he didn’t fire on Leia–I mean he didn’t give a shit anyway that she was spaced–that his real obstacle wasn’t to keep repeating the Han scenario, but to overcome Snoke himself?
Could this be the in-universe reason for the Knights of Ren being sent away–so that Kylo would be deprived of his greatest tactical asset and would be forced to improvise?
Maybe Snoke wasn’t as incomptent as he seemed. Maybe everything went exactly as he planned, or at least hoped.
@leg-grestrade The idea of KR being attracted to Rey makes him about eleventy times more disgusting so it might actually work for his character, although it adds a really gross taste to everything and isn’t really the SW tone. I mean, imagine if Palpatine did the “I have you now, my pretty” shit on Leia or Padmé… like… ew. One of the things I like about SW is that powerful women are allowed to have male rivals and enemies without it being creepily sexual. Jabba the Hutt was an exception and- well actually I’m fine with Rey strangling Kyle to death lol.
I think Kylo’s choosing to take an elitist tack was mostly projection as DHF said, since he was ragging on her being a “scavenger” even in TFA as though she weren’t completely comfortable with that. But it’s really disturbing to think that he might be obsessed with “pure Force babies” himself.
But yeah, if he grows any kind of smarts at all he will use Finn against her and vice versa in Episode IX. The bond between Finn and Rey has been built up for two movies, and he–and the creators–had better use it to maximum effect.
@lj-writes, I think my supposition sort of goes hand in hand with your idea of Kylo ragging on her. That’s why I scoff at reylos claiming Kylo had an enormous boner for her in TFA. He didn’t. One of the things with Kylo I thought JJ got right, if he was making him a Vader stan, was sharing Vader (and Palpatine’s) disdain for non-Force sensitive beings. They might respect them to some degree, like a Tarkin, but they still thought they were inferior, to a certain degree. There was something in Legends where Palps almost went over the line, questioning why Vader would have gone for Padme as a non-Force sensitive before catching himself and stating that she was a lovely woman from a good family on par with the Naboo Palpatines (all of whom he killed, btw).
In TFA, Kylo considered Rey nothing but a dumpster diver, who he was going to violate and discard, the way he’d planned on doing with Poe. It was only when she proved to be Force Sensitive that he backed off and tried to change tactics, because as FS being, she was now worthy of more of his regard – until he didn’t need it anymore.
This is why I feel it was a mistake to not confirm Finn as FS in TFA. Because in TLJ, the through-line by Rian Asshole seems to be “Rey can only turn to Kylo because as a FS being, he alone understands her pain and what she needs, and they have a bond no one who isn’t FS an understand.” By not making them have a familial bond, Rian was basically saying Kylo and Rey are the only ones for each other, and if it doesn’t happen, it’s not because it shouldn’t, but because it couldn’t. It’s something that has been picked up by general audiences as well as Reylos, and goes along with Kylo’s disgust that Rey is worried about Finn. Why worry about some non-FS “traitor” when FS Kylo and his square boobs are right there?
Of course, no one seemed to complain about the lack for Force Sensitivity in the partners of Leia and Anakin. But we all know what the difference was there.
I never got the impression Vader respected Tarkin tbh, he and Palpatine found Tarkin’s abilities useful but Vader was really pissy about Tarkin not respecting the Force and himself enough, feeling himself owed a degree of deference for his abilities. The way Snoke talks about Hux, a.k.a. Tarkin II, behind his back is downright depersonalizing–not to say Hux doesn’t deserve serious disrespect, but it seems to be for the wrong reasons.
While I strongly believe Force sensitive Finn is canon, I am not at all sure that the canon will confirm his Force sensitivity and canon Finnrey at the same time. Anakin married a non-Force sensitive, as you point out, and so did Leia. In the lamentable Luke-Leia-Han triangle Leia chose Han even before she knew Luke was her brother. Luke’s marriage to Mara Jade or someone like her never happened in this continuity, so far as we know. If Kyle Ron is interested in bucking that trend and “continuing the bloodline” with a powerful Force-sensitive woman (ew), it would present a stronger contrast if Rey marries a non-Force sensitive rather than another Force-sensitive person. It’s all sorts of problematic that they might position the Black male lead as the one with “lesser” genes whom Rey chooses for love, but Han was originally cast to be played by a Black man with all the problems this implies. And the Reylows can fuck off with their not-even-veiled eugenics rhetoric.
I don’t understand the people who say that Kylo would have worked better if he had been a random, I really don’t. Kylo’s connection to the Skywalker bloodline, along with the lack of clear motive for his actions, is the entire point.
See, he’s a Nazi.
Okay, so technically he’s an allegory for a neo-Nazi in a space fantasy setting, but given that this hellsite has a distinct difficulty with complex concepts I’ll keep it simple. He’s a Nazi.
Why did Nazis do what they did? Why do neo-Nazis do what they do?
If you peel away all the embellishments and propaganda it comes right down to this: they see themselves as having a special legacy, a special bloodline to protect and they have a right to do so because they feel they’ve been chosen.
JJ has said that the early concept of Jedikiller only started working when they made him connected to the Skywalker bloodline, to the chosen family in Star Wars.
Kylo’s motivation, like that of all Nazis, is that he’s doing this because he belongs to the chosen people and thus have a right to rule. Not because he’s qualified, but because he belongs to the destined people.
No it’s not deep or complex, but it was never meant to be. Kylo is an antagonist and one JJ always meant to emulate a neo-Nazi. Giving him complex motivation would have detracted from this and, like with the real life equivalent, made it possible to justify what he’s doing because he has X, Y, Z motivation. Instead JJ gave him the most basic motivation of Nazis, he’s right because he’s chosen and because he has the strength to do what he does.
It’s not glorious. It’s pathetic, sad and ultimately someone who’s irredeemable. Not because he couldn’t choose differently than he does but because it’s not a motivation that makes anyone want to see him redeemed.
Of course, even people who sees Kylo as a villain and antagonist have a really hard time accepting him being a Nazi, so maybe this view isn’t really that surprising.
I mean the actor himself told us that Kylo Ren is an elitist (link), it’s not that deep people.
[Adam Driver] refuses to see his character as bratty. “There is a little bit of an
elitist, royalty thing going on,” he says, reminding us that the
character’s estranged mom is “the princess. I think he’s aware of maybe
the privilege.”
Cass Sunstein has criticized TLJ in part because Kylo didn’t fall due to losing a loved one (link), but maybe that’s because… Kylo is no Anakin… and is not nearly as sympathetic?
Mr. Dark Side, Kylo Ren, does have a bit of a struggle, and in that
sense, Johnson maintains continuity with Lucas’s vision. But in this
movie, at least, the struggle turns out to be a head fake. Because
Kylo’s descent doesn’t have the precipitating cause of Anakin’s – the
loss of loved ones – and because we don’t see Kylo suppressing the
better angels of his nature, the film doesn’t come anywhere close to the
depths of Lucas’s films.
If anyone is positioned as the new Anakin–but with a happy ending–it’s Rey, in struggling with the loss of loved ones, or at least her idea of them, and also in resisting manipulation by her would-be abusive mentor Kylo where Anakin fell to Palpatine’s manipulation. It’s interesting that Sunstein couldn’t recognize this story when it manifested in a female character, though to be sure it’s a common enough blind spot and RJ didn’t make it easy for anyone.
Precisely.
People, not just Cass here, are obsessed with having Kylo be the next Vader/Anakin, but he isn’t. Not to mention they’re even more obsessed with the reason why he fell to the Dark Side than they are with Rey’s parentage.
But let me ask you something. Did we know why Anakin fell in the OT? No, we didn’t, because the reason for it wasn’t relevant to Luke for whom Vader was a foil.
Is it relevant to Finn or to Rey why Kylo fell? So far we’ve been given not a single reason why this information should be relevant to either of them, so I don’t get why people are so upset about not knowing.
Except as yet another case of prioritizing the white guy over the two actual leads in the ST. Kylo’s motives for turning to the Dark are no more interesting or relevant to the narrative than Vader’s were in the OT. It’s not a plot hole, it’s not a flaw in the storytelling, it’s intentional. Only the parts of Kylo and his actions that are pertinent to Finn and Rey are relevant to the story, and unless someone can come up with a good reason why either of them should remotely care about it it’s going to remain irrelevant.
All too true. (You and @lj-writes are killin it with the meta lately).
It’s funny, too, because Rey’s “nobody” revelation effectively removes the possibility that he fell because of a lost loved one. The Rey Solo theory revolves around a Solo family tragedy before Kylo’s fall (Leia implies in TFA that the family was dealing with something that led to sending him to Luke, which is open to interpretation but fit with the loss of another child). Rey was taken and believed to be dead, throwing the family into turmoil and pushing a grieving Ben toward the Dark Side. The Rey Solo theory doesn’t always attribute Rey’s disappearance to Kylo’s fall, but when it does it gives Kylo a sympathetic reason to embrace the darkness. (The death of Anakin Solo was a turning point for Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus in the EU, so it isn’t hard to get onboard with the idea that Rey was a combination of Anakin and Jaina Solo.)
Rey being nobody shatters that. Fandom rejoiced because it meant they could get together and have Pure Force Babies (something the narrative has never suggested was a goal of Kylo’s even with his Nazi mindset), but it gives him no reason to be like he is other than toxic entitlement based on bloodline.
(They’ll say the reason is Snoke’s supposed brainwashing, but that ignores the fact that the ST remains firmly about choices.)
Yes. It’s important not to ignore the fact that Kylo’s entitlement stems from his lineage. He is the only Star Wars villain (iirc) who’s actual ideology aligns with Nazism, where others wore it as an “evil” aesthetic. Sure, the Empire and FO are human supremacists, but Kylo represents white supremacy in a much more tangible way.
When he confronts Rey and Finn on the crumbling Starkiller Base, it’s almost heavy-handed, but for the fact that most of the audience didn’t see it. A volatile white man holding on to his flickering “birthright,” demanding a woman and Black man return the power (Luke’s saber) that he believes belongs to him.
That’s not subtlety. Nor is the scene where Kylo orders the slaughter of the villagers. Especially when Finn was very clearly put into the position of a soldier “just following orders” (the Nuremberg Defense), but chose to disobey.
Fans remove Kylo’s culpability because he didn’t pull the trigger, but do we consider the Nazis who issued the orders but didn’t kill firsthand less culpable? FUCK NO.
So people can hem and haw about how it’s wrong to say Kylo is a Nazi/white supremacist parallel, but it’s in the narrative, especially under JJ’s watch.
You right, JJ isn’t remotely subtle. He never was and in this case the only way he could have been less subtle about would be to name them Nazis and give the characters names such as Adolf and Hermann.
And no there’s never been a quite this obvious Nazi analogy in Star Wars before. The Empire was simply about might makes right and the rule of the strongest, in many ways it was simply generic fascism with some Nazi aesthetics on top to make it look cooler.
The whole “preserving/claiming a birthright/legacy” is a new theme for a Dark Side character. Or rather, it is Kylo’s own fucked up version of the past and his birthright he’s trying to claim. Just as with real life Nazis it’s not actually their past, culture and people they’re trying to claim and protect, it’s their own private, revised, fucked up version of it they’re on about.
As a lot of people have pointed out his words to Vader’s helmet doesn’t make any sense because what Vader really wanted was to protect his family. But I’ll posit that they’re not supposed to make sense in the historical context of the universe because it’s not even Vader/Anakin’s legacy Kylo is trying to protect or claim, it’s his own revised, fucked up version of it.
Yes Rey Solo or I’d argue even Rey Skywalker could have given Kylo a sympathetic motive for turning to the Dark Side, but as things stand he doesn’t have.
More than that, TFA does everything it can to make Kylo look unsympathetic and paint him in a negative light without making him completely one dimensional.
Like this is a universe where the space Nazis after being defeated fucked off to “space Argentina” but rather than just lay low and die out they get right back at it becoming proud space neo-Nazis.
One organization that was an important the Nazi Germany was Hitlerjugend. It was a paramilitary organization of which membership was mandatory for all German boys between the age of 6 and 18. It was meant to not only teach them proper Nazi values and ideals, but also turn them into good soldiers.
In a universe such as the present Star Wars one where the in-universe Nazis fucked off and restarted the in-universe version of Hitlerjugend would absolutely be an important thing too.
Does it sound familiar? Do we know of a character who had grown up under such conditions?
Indeed we do.
Another thing.
Ideologies and organizations such as the (vague) one the First Order espouses is supposed to attract people who feels disenfranchised, are economically disadvantaged and/or have a great need to belong to someone or some place and struggles with their identity.
Do we know of such a character in the story?
Well, look at that.
But it isn’t Finn or Rey who turns to the First Order, though they should have every single reason to. No, the one who embraces it is this asshole:
Ben Solo. Raised with just about every single privileged know. Loving parents, financial secure, erudite and educated. He is the one who embraces the First Order, because his own fucked up, revised version of his “legacy” entitles him too.
Or so he thinks.
Which leads me back to the beginning of all of this.
JJ stripped Kylo of all ideological motivation to make it impossible to use that to excuse or defend his actions. In creating Finn and Rey as the characters he did, JJ also undermines every personal motivation Kylo could use to make himself look good.
The last two years have been something of an experience watching fandom trying to justify Kylo’s actions and argue that he’s actually, deep down good, when everything in the narrative told us the opposite. Even TLJ could justify his actions, instead it just ran avoidance tactics on the topic never addressing it. Even Rian knew that in a story where Finn and Rey exists, where Kylo has no ideological convictions beyond claiming his birthright, it isn’t possible to make him look sympathetic.
On a closing note. The whole “pure Force babies” thing always made me want to thrown up. Do these people realize who and what they sound as spouting that shit. I’ve hears actual Nazis be more circumspect in their phrasing than these people.
If you had asked me a year or two ago if they were aware or not, I’d have said they weren’t. Now I’m no where near as sure that these people aren’t 100% aware of who and what they sound as saying that shit. I’m wondering if they think they’re cool doing that.
The part about the FO attracting disenfranchised people like Rey is 100% canonical and intentional. That’s one of the FO’s schticks, positioning themselves as the great hope for those who are underprivileged and desperate. Not only that, there are at least two high-ranking FO characters–Gallius Rax and The Cardinal–who are actually from Jakku and trapped in poverty until the FO picked them up and gave them opportunities. Though not from Jakku, Phasma in her novel was similarly from a poverty-stricken, constantly warring post-apocalyptic world. I have pointed out before that the FO thrived in part due to the Republic’s failure to provide economic justice (link).
Also, your analysis reveals more clearly why Kylostans have gone the path of either arguing he’s brainwashed or justifying his actions. JJ purposefully took away the traditional ideological or emotional “justifications” for the character’s actions, forcing Kylostans to either show their ass and say his actions are inherently right/understandable or fall back on saying his character is essentially a puppet.
I remember when I delved deep into Reylow meta and came out of it a committed anti, one of the first things I noticed and an early turn-off was how distinctly fascistic the rhetoric sounded, like Kylo believes in the rule of the strong over the weak (that’s accurate) and Rey is powerful (uh-huh) and that makes them a perfect match (what?!). (Link) The Force Baby shit only upped that impression, and really that was never what SW was about. Both Anakin and Leia married non-Force users, and Luke as far as we know never had children at all in this continuity. The fact that a subset of fans think SW is/should be about Force eugenics in contrast to everything it’s actually stood foris seriously disturbing. Idk why people seriously think JJ wou do that.
L.J.'s Obsessions 