lj-writes:

diversehighfantasy:

shipping-isnt-morality:

Sincere questions for antis

If anyone feels like taking me up on it.

1. Where is the research on how media you consume can directly, negatively affect your values? Everything I’ve seen says that, on the whole, it makes you more empathetic and thoughtful, things which would be directly counter to the normalization of horrifying acts.

2. What is your basis for saying that what someone enjoys in fiction or fantasy is what they enjoy in real life, or would enjoy if they had a chance? You make fun of the argument “enjoying horror doesn’t make you a murderer”, but I’ve never seen a meaningful counter to that.

3. What is it about sex that makes something inherently bad? I’ve seen a lot of arguments along the lines of, “Portraying X is fine so long as it’s not sexual”, but isn’t being sexual a part of many people’s lives, good and bad? How are you coming to the conclusion that people universally endorse the reality of the ideas that they find sexually arousing?

4. Why do the needs of victims who are triggered by content overrule the needs of victim who find comfort in communities surrounding that content? Isn’t the solution to just keep the communities as separate as possible?

5. What is your goal? Do you really think removing all the content you find objectionable from a fandom is possible? Do you really want to leave a string of suicides in your wake of victims who blame their trauma on the fiction they chose to create and consume?

There questions are asked in good faith, and I’d love it if you answered in good faith. With reliable sources, if at all possible.

We have to talk. We have to. We have to come back to the middle, at least a little bit, or fandom and creative communities all over the internet are going to tear themselves apart. So: it’s possible that I’m wrong. I don’t think I am, but I try as hard and as often as possible to prove myself wrong, to combat confirmation bias. So: prove me wrong. How did you get to where you are, and what’s your evidence?

Fandom is a reflection of the real world, it isn’t what happens when “morally questionable” media is embraced.

When a movie or show has an inclusive cast of characters and fandom makes everything about white characters (and, for the record, this happens again and again across multiple fandoms, including Blade, Bright, and Orange is the New Black to name just a few), that says something about the real world. We know that something is harmful. The empathy gap – which can be summed up as feeling white pain but not Black pain – is real (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3108582/), and serious, and it’s on display every day in fandoms.

The Last Jedi didn’t make anyone more empathetic to Kylo than Finn. In fact, the narrative did not ask that of the audience at all.

Media does influence how we see the world, though. Decades of all white Westerns, for example, have acted as historical revisionism, causing people to believe that all real Old West “cowboys” were white. That is far from the truth (http://www.pkwy.k12.mo.us/west/teachers/boles/student_work/west_webfall08/DanB%20West/DanBDiversity.html).

And there have been studies showing that TV can, if fact, induce racism. (https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/research_digest/does_tv_make_us_racist). Findings of the Berkeley study include:

Researchers studied how viewers were affected by nonverbal behavior on 11 popular television shows, such as CSI: Miami. Characters on these shows displayed more negative nonverbal behavior toward African-American characters than toward white characters. Exposure to pro-white nonverbal behavior increased racial bias among viewers, as determined by a test that measures unconscious biases, even though viewers did not report noticing patterns of biased behavior on TV. This study suggests that subtle nonverbal behavior on TV can influence racial bias in the real world. —Kat Saxton

This is an interesting study, but the fact is, viewers will demonstrate bias against Black characters even without negative nonverbal behavior toward them. All they have to do is exist. (Citation: Many years of watching and participating in fandoms first hand.)

I think 1-2 have been answered by @diversehighfantasy or rather redirected to more relevant questions. To add on, my response to Question 3 is that I don’t have a problem with sexualizing a situation/relationship itself, but I do have a problem with being told that harnful behaviors are actuallly unobjectionable and is/should be canon. For instance, that a minor-adult sexual relationship is unharmful or beneficial, that torture and mass murder are justifiable acts of war, or that it’s not abusive to tell a woman she is nothing except to a specific man.

On Questions 4 and 5, my goal is not to remove shipping or shipping content, and I do not know any anti who thinks that’s a feasible goal. For the most part antis I know go to great lengths to avoid content we find objectionable, including filtering and blocking, and excluding some shippers from our own self-organized fandom activities like blog rings and Discord chats.

I think one main source of misunderstanding is that you as the op don’t see the difference between “This fandom trend is a reflection of real life biases and decreases the enjoyment of marginalized fans” and “This fandom trend must be forbidden altogether.” It is possible to criticize a thing without infringing on the right of others to enjoy it. Critique is not the same thing as prohibition, and the right to create and enjoy content doesn’t mean the right to be free of criticism.

Okay, I want to give an in-depth response to these points, but I wanted to first clarify something that may have gotten lost as this post left the context of my blog:

It is possible to criticize a thing without infringing on the right of others to enjoy it. Critique is not the same thing as prohibition, and the right to create and enjoy content doesn’t mean the right to be free of criticism.

I 100% agree. I’ve actually said the same thing multiple times, and I am vocally pro-criticism, especially regarding racism in fandom.

(As a side note: the original post was way more about sexual policing than racial criticism, as I think they’re different issues that need to be handled differently. To that end, I’m probably going to remove the anti-Reylo tag from the original post, as I’m not involved enough with the fandom to properly address any racial issues there. It was far more about the question of whether shipping enemies together is romanticizing abuse, but there’s years of discourse aside from that that I’m just straight-up not informed on.)

Honestly, this is the first moderately pleasant interaction with antis that I’ve had. To understand where I’m coming from, it’s helpful to understand that most of the antis who have sought me out – and therefore the extent of my exposure to this side of the fandom – have been people like this. Or this. Or this. Or the Halsey thing. Or this. Or – ok, you get the point. So that’s the perspective I’m coming from. I’m anti-harassment of creators, not anti-criticism of fandom trends and fanworks.

And in my view, right now, many creators aren’t even hearing the valid criticism over the harassment.

Further responses to @diversehighfantasy and @lj-writes specific points below the cut.

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I’m glad you find the exchange productive. I think this is one of the few reasonable exchanges I’ve had with someone who is critical of antis, too. Both @diversehighfantasy and I are aware that there are antis who are harassers and speak against it. I see harassment as a simplification and degradation of social justice-based critique, but that’s a different subject.

I have two points I’d like to add in response to your answer. First: I think it’s a false metric to focus exclusively on whether fictional portrayals transfer directly to reality. The people who create and, more relevantly in this case, consume fanworks are real people. It negatively affects, say, a Black fan to be constantly reminded of racism in her fandom activities, or a transgender fan to have transphobic portrayals thrown in his face, and so on. It is not fun to see your real-life oppression celebrated in the spaces where you go to have fun. It’s long been pointed out that fandom, just like society at large, is extremely hostile to marginalized groups, and “antis” are often trying to make fandom more inclusive by raising awareness.

Second, on a related note, “tag/warn appropriately” only works when the content creator is self-aware enough to tag or warn. If I’m writing, say, a slave AU fic I am likely to add appropriate tags and warnings, but if I am, say, romanticizing emotional abuse in a fic I am probably not self-aware enough to include a warning for that. The people who create this content are the same ones who are likeliest to respond with angry denials if called on it. Implicit bias is difficult to tag or warn for because it’s, well, implicit. That’s where awareness raising and criticism come in.

This may also be an area where we come from really different contexts, by the way, since I think most sexual content and pairings are easily recognized and tagged. The complexities of social and psychological phenomena like racism, not so much.

I would argue that even tagging is an imperfect solution, though. If, say, the first 1,000 search results for fics including a character are pedophilic pairings, or–more likely–racist stereotypes and romanticization of abuse are rampant in fanworks, that sends a message. It has a cumulative effect on fans even if they can avoid objectionable fanworks.

On solutions, in addition to marginalized fans speaking out, fans also have implemented solutions like blocking and excluding fans of an objectionable ship (which shippers criticize as “gatekeeping”), circulating lists of objectionable fanwork creators, or circulating non-objectionable fanfic recommendations. I think a more curated fanwork database may be a solution as well, though it would be substantially smaller than free submission databases.

Rose called Finn a selfish traitor because if he had taken one of the escape pods then there wouldn’t have been enough for the ship to evacuate

kyberfox:

raccourse:

kyberfox:

raccourse:

kyberfox:

lj-writes:

stormscavenger:

First off, Holdo wasn’t telling anyone her plan. So I don’t think even Rose would know why she needed to save the escape pods in the first place. If Rose knew, then there’d be no need for the pointless mission they went on.

Second, we know that she knows that this guy is Finn because she nutted over him creepily for two minutes. She knows what he’s been through and what he’s done for the Resistance, and THAT’S how she reacts to him leaving?

Is there a reason she couldn’t explain to him why taking the escape pod would be a bad idea? No, she resorts to tasing him unconscious and blasting him against the wall.

Fun Fact #1: There will NEVER be a good reason to call Finn a selfish traitor in canon EVER, so jot that down.

Fun Fact #2: that will ALWAYS bother me regardless of whatever bullshit excuse anyone gives, so please don’t try to justify it.

Another disturbing thought: The only valid reason in that situation for Rose to violently incapacitate Finn would have been if he was a physical threat, since if he backed peacefully away from the pods and his attempted departure became a disciplinary issue (it would not have been, since he was not Resistance), it wasn’t like he could escape justice on a spaceship.

But Finn did not show the slightest inclination of being violent. ROSE was the one who was waving a weapon in his face. Rose, in other words, did not have the slightest pretext of justification OTHER THAN TRYING TO CLAIM FINN WAS A THREAT TO HER.

This is what makes the scene all the more upsetting, because, on a narrative level, Rose’s getting away with assaulting Finn depends on attributing to a Black man an aggressive intent he did not have. It’s racist bullshit that posits a Black person as the aggressor in every encounter.

@stormscavenger For your anon.

Holdo isn’t even using the escape pods for the evacuation, she’s using unarmed and unshielded transport ships. Not the escape pods.

So your argument doesn’t even have the modicum of a fig leaf you pretend it does.

Just admit you want to justify that an unarmed, unthreatening Black man got violently assaulted. Rose had no justification for what she did, there is nothing that excuses or explains her actions except Rian’s racism which he put into his script.

how do you guys still have arms after reaching this hard

@raccourse

Answer me this then:

Where is it shown that Finn is armed in the scene?

How is Finn threatening Rose?

Because there is no justification for violently assaulting a non-threatening and unarmed Black man, just because you don’t like what he’s doing. No that goes for “security” staff and law keepers too, which Rose isn’t even, but lets go with that.

Finn is even beginning to explain to her, but Rose decides to assault him instead of hearing what he has to say. Sorry, that’s unjustified violence no matter what position Rose holds in that scene.

hoooolllyyyy shhhiiittt

rose doesn’t stun finn because she finds him inherently threatening, dangerous, or defines him with any other stereotype/racist sense of intimidation

this isn’t a case of security needlessly attacking black men, if you’d watched the scene you’d understand the context

rose stuns finn to keep him from leaving, because she sees anyone making the attempt to (in her understanding) escape as a coward—especially after literally just losing her sister because she sacrificed herself for the resistance

she stunned him to keep him from leaving, despite finn’s intentions being pure, out of misunderstanding. literally how did you people come to the conclusion that this is a racist scene, when the dialogue surrounding it explains exactly why she did what she did, even explicitly mentioning that she’s stunned multiple people who’ve tried to use an escape pod as a set-up for her stunning finn

aside from that, though, rose is clearly being framed as in wrong in the scene. if any social commentary could be made about this, it would be the promotion of “female hysteria” in the face of logic and reason being espoused by men. even then, however, that is still very much a reaching conclusion.

this is the kind of analysis that dismisses legitimate criticism made by progressives the eyes of centrists. a community carelessly throwing out these kinds of criticisms on the weakest evidence imaginable is only setting us back. if we want progress to be made, we not only have to think critically about what IS promoting hate, but also what we label as hate. try to make this exact argument in any legitimate critical space and you’d be laughed out of the discussion because it’s absurd.

I watched the scene and there’s no reason for Rose to stun him. You obviously haven’t watched it or you would know that Finn has begun to explain. And yet she stuns him.

You clearly paid no attention to anything Finn as doing or saying.

She has zero cause in the situation for stunning him and the fact that you keep justifying what she did tells me all I need to know about you. Because this scene has some clear really world parallels that you refuse to acknowledge.

And no, the movie at no point shows Rose for being in the wrong, instead it frames Finn’s assault as a joke, because assaulting Black men is funny. Instead it constantly validates her actions towards Finn.

And I repeat. Nothing ever justifies violence against a non-threatening and unarmed person. Ever.

But you clearly seem to agree that unjustified violence towards Black people are acceptable and funny. I’d ask you to address your Antiblackness, but I can see that there’s no getting through your racism. Bye.

The number of people crawling out of the woodwork screaming “He’s a coward/she lost her sister and that makes it okay!!!” may be the scariest legacy of TLJ. Just how long were these people waiting for an excuse to salivate over the sight of Finn being brutalized and humiliated, and to defend his assault to the bitter end? Is this the hill they want to die on, that it’s ok to assault someone if you’re sad and think they’re a coward?

avatarsymbolism:

lj-writes:

attackfish:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

Cultural appropriation and cultural sharing in Avatar: The Last Airbender compared.

Reblogging myself to talk about the ‘Disrespectful’ gif because Mai and Ty Lee’s disrespect in that scene is toward not only the Kyoshi Warriors’ culture but to the Warriors themselves as well. But that’s always the case, isn’t it? Cultural disrespect always goes with personal disrespect. Always.

Mai and Ty Lee’s attitude here plays into a really pernicious stereotype about women in colonialized cultures, that they are hypersexual seductresses out to sink their claws into men, especially men of the colonializing group. Of course the reality is that men of the colonizing group, and often women as well, hypersexualize and prey on the colonized people.

I mean, the Kyoshi Warriors were foraging in the middle of nowhere. They weren’t dressed up to look pretty: their clothes and war paint were their uniforms and ties to their heritage, not look-at-me-I’m-so-beautiful decorations. Yet so ingrained were the stereotypes Mai and Ty Lee had been taught about Earth Kingdom women, they took one look at the Kyoshi Warriors and dismissed them as exotic, sexualized creatures. The Fire Nation girls even seem to take OFFENSE at how the Warriors are dressed, as though their clothes are somehow demeaning or a provocation.

In the process Mai and Ty Lee subtly set themselves up as the more liberated women, the serious fighters as oppsed to these frivolous foreign girls. And I’m willing to bet a lot that the Fire Nation used its comparative gender equality for propaganda purposes, harping on the need to save the oppressed Water Tribe and Earth Kingdom women from Water Tribe and Earth Kingdom men. Sozin’s own stated motivation for starting the war was exactly what we would call a white savior complex if he were white. This is how white feminism and the white savior complex work to reinforce colonialism in our world.

While all the characters in ATLA are coded as POC, mostly Asians, these dynamics of colonialism and supremacy apply across culture and race. In fact I’m quite happy that ATLA depicts these issues between nonwhite peoples. Though colonialism by European and European-descended cultures is the most dominant currently in our world (hence the descriptor ‘white’), it has never been solely a European issue. Just look at how the Air Nomads are explicitly based on Tibet, which is suffering from decades of Chinese colonialism. China and other nonwhite colonializing powers have used their lack of European descent as a shield, but it’s not a defense. Just because European colonization has been massively destructive doesn’t mean other peoples can’t be oppressive as well.

I’d like to add to this idea that Earth Kingdom women are treated to a gendered form of racial or ethnic prejudice, because it runs though more than just the interactions Azula and her minions have with the Kyoshi Warriors. In “Zuko Alone,” for example, when Iroh sends Azula an Earth Kingdom doll, he writes, “And for Azula, a new friend. She wears the latest fashion for Earth Kingdom girls.“ What’s stressed are the aesthetics of her dress, and a hobby that Azula, and later Mai and Ty Lee, plainly associates with girlyness, not only femininity, but a childish, useless femininity.

This derision of Earth Kingdom girls and women as “girly” and overly feminine comes up again not only during the battle with the Kyoshi Warriors, but after as well. Mai for example talks about wanting to get out of the girly disguise she has to wear, i. e., dressing as a Kyoshi Warrior, and when Ty Lee suggests that the Kyoshi Warriors have less depressing make up than Mai.

We can contrast this with what Suki says about her uniform: “It’s a warrior’s uniform. You should be proud. The silk threads symbolizes the brave blood that flows through our
veins. The gold insignia represents the honor of the warrior’s heart.”

Later, in the Comic “Going Home Again,” Azula puts a brainwashed Joo Dee in nominal charge of Ba Sing Se because she is so pliable. If the subjugation of Earth Kingdom girls is a rallying cry for public support for the war in the Fire Nation, it certainly does not trickle down to what happens on the ground. Just as normally happens in real life, Azula is perfectly happy to take over exploiting Earth Kingdom women in a gendered way similar to the way Long Feng did. There isn’t any enlightened spreading of feminist values here, not when gendered exploitation is so useful to the new colonial government.

The implied view that all Earth Kingdom women are oppressed also shows a cultural flattening of the Earth Kingdom. It’s pretty clear from the series that Kyoshi Island culturally distinct from Ba Sing Se or Gaoling. They have different gender roles and norms, and this is entirely ignored by Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee. This is also common to colonial powers historically, and still common today. Think of the way so many white western people treat East Asian ethnicities as interchangeable, especially with regards to and fetishization. In many ways, the implied attitudes of the Fire Nation people toward Earth Kingdom women and girls functions as a G-rated version of that same fetishization process.

Yup, the thing about the colonialist savior complex is that there’s no actual saving involved. These women are exploited in rhetoric to justify colonialism, and also in reality as well. It’s no wonder the Dai Li switched allegiance to Azula–she perpetuated the same system they were part of and benefited from, she just played the game better than Long Feng did.

One of the things I really liked about ATLA was how it showed the Fire Nation’s distorted perception of other cultures compared to their perceptions of themselves. The Kyoshi Warriors are a good example of this as you point out, as is what Earthbending means for Haru vs. the prison warden’s contempt for Earthbenders in the episode “Imprisoned.” The Earth Kingdom and Water Tribe characters have prejudices against Fire Nation people, too, with nearly deadly results when Jet tries to wipe out a village, but it’s also clear that the harm isn’t equal when the Water Tribes and the Earth Kingdoms are undergoing systematic genocide while the Fire Nation is facing, at its outskirts, insurgent pushback–some of it terrorist in nature, as in Jet’s case–from its aggression.

I like how the show’s response to all these complex issues was showing the diversity not only between common groupings but within them. Some Earth Kingdom women, like the Ba Sing Se upper crust, really are pampered and hyperfeminine, and that in itself isn’t a bad thing (though the system of economic exploitation underlying their luxury certainly is), the show’s subtle devaluation of girliness as bad notwithstanding. Katara, Toph, and Sokka all find something to enjoy in the Ba Sing Se high culture that caters to and is shaped by noblewomen. Some Earth Kingdom women are warriors and healers, others are everyday working class people like Jin. That kind of variety is a great antidote to the flattening view the Fire Nation imposed on other cultures, and in a way the whole show gives the lie to the idea of Asian interchangeability. (I mean it’s not perfect–it still follows the trope of “Asia” being primarily East Asia, with what could be a Southeast Asia analogue played largely as a joke and the Tibet stand-in presented as already dead and gone. But one story can’t do everything, and I can still enjoy it while seeing where it falls into common traps of thought.)

This was a very interesting discussion. Both @lj-writes and @attackfish brought up things I never really thought of, but it definitely makes sense.

It also explains why Katara is weirdly sexualized in “The Ember Island Players,” and why she is the only girl to receive this treatment in the play.

Here, the play denotes Katara to the role of the exotic foreigner that’s meant to be feminine and hypersexualized.

This also adds a much more uncomfortable note to the “Crossroads” portion of the play, almost making play!Katara a temptress where all canon!Katara did was offer to heal his scar.

Edit

Yue also gets this treatment, but Katara somehow has more cleavage:

Also, they’re still more sexualized then the girls from the other nations.

Omg I never even made that connection! (Maybe because I seldom felt the need to go back and watch EIP…) Good catch!

rose-griffes:

redrikki:

redrikki:

kyberfox:

chibi-chellist:

One thing that really annoys me about the discussion surrounding the TLJ backlash is people talking about arrogant fans feeling “entitled”.

And I say, what about Disney’s arrogance and entitlement? After the success they had with their animation, Pixar and Marvel movies they now behave like people *owe* it to them to like their products, and are shocked and appalled – and spin ridiculous tales about hackers rigging Rotten Tomatoes or whatnot – because how dare people not like one of their movies, how dare they!?

No, Disney, you are not immune to criticism and failure and Star Wars fans don’t owe you anything and have the right to just really and honestly think that TLJ is a bad movie and not spend their money on it.

I wonder if some of this is tied to the mindset that Star Wars was the unsinkable franchise?

Star Wars was seen as the one thing that couldn’t tank, couldn’t bomb. It was inconceivable that a Star Wars movie, much less a Star Wars saga movie, could flop.

But The Last Jedi has flopped and flopped big time. And right now not just Disney but all of Hollywood is in a state of panic because yes other movies and franchises has flopped, but Star Wars had this myth of being untouchable surrounding it, and if Star Wars can sink, anything can.

I think this may have hammered home in a way that nothing else could have, that no one is above criticism, that no one is immune to backlash from fans. Disney, Hollywood and media is in a state of shock that this has happened and that it has happened on such a clear scale – there’s no arguing that TLJ did fail – and they have no idea how to deal with it, so they blame the fans-

Complaining that fans feel entitled to good storytelling and a
modicum

of respect is like complaining that Millennial are killing the _____ industry. How dare consumers want some things and not others! How dare they! Don’t they know that they exist to give corporations money? Consumers can’t honestly expect corporations to tailor their products to meet their evolving wants and needs, not when years of advertising theory say that they’re just malleable sheep who can be trained to want anything.

@thewillowbends replied saying:

They spent $5 billion on the franchise and thought they could just pump
out whatever and we’d eat it up. Apparently, they weren’t paying
attention to the response to the prequels. Star Wars fans are fanatics,
but they’re also extremely demanding. These movies mean a lot to
people.

Don’t you know you’re supposed to let the past die? Kill it if you have to. We’re all just a bunch of entitled losers if we think we should have standards and want some form of character continuity. I mean, obviously, Disney envisioned Star Wars fans as walking ATMs who could be relied upon to pay for tickets and buy all the merchandise, but it’s more insidious than that. So much of the current film storytelling is based on the idea that while casual viewers just want lightsabers and a rehash of the OT, anyone who is actually invested in the GFFA will feel compelled to buy all the tie-in material just so they understand what the fuck is going on.

Want to know how the galaxy became such a mess in between RotJ and TFA? Buy the books! Want some actual depth to our cardboard cut-out characters? Buy the books! Want to know who this new person is we’re pretending you’re already supposed to know is? Buy the books. The Old EU was never this crass when it came to forcing fans to buy the tie-ins. By uniting all their storytelling under one roof, they can and have deliberately created gaps which must be filled and it’s deeply annoying to me that I have fallen for it on multiple occasions because I genuinely do care about the characters and the story.

I’ve been a Star Wars fan for years. Decades, even. But I’d never bought any tie-in material before TFA.

I love Finn, so I got the Rucka novel Before the Awakening, and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING THAT MATTERS TO FINN from that novel actually makes it onscreen in TFA or TLJ. It’s not just that the novel “enhances” the character; he’s basically an entirely different character.

Finn was a star in the Stormtrooper program; Phasma saw him as future leadership material. None of that gets portrayed in either movie. And I find it even more disappointing because Finn is portrayed by John Boyega, who is black, and so a lot of fans aren’t making positive assumptions about him to begin with.

TFA went for a cheap joke about Finn working sanitation, and never clarified that it was part of a normal rotation of duties. TLJ doubled down on that sanitation worker idea. Yes, we saw Finn make smart deductions for a moment onscreen in TLJ. But we still don’t see any hint within the films about Finn that the Rucka novel goes to the trouble of creating.

Anyway. So that’s the last time I’ll buy anything for the new EU.

There are soooooo many assholes now claiming BTA is not canon and Finn was a janitor. (A janitor who’s also a crack shot and tactical genius, sounds pretty impressive actually) Ryan Craig gave fuel to fandom racists by unoriginally repeating the sanitation gag and now I just want to burn everything down.

loopy777:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

luchagcaileag:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

redrikki:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

I’ve started watching TLJ lads wish me luck

Ok the opening sequence isn’t too bad… sense of suspense, funny back-and-forth between Poe and Leia. A bit heavy with the jokes, Hux is a little too humorless and wooden, but hey, it’s lighthearted adventure.

Also I don’t speak Spanish but an older lady in the audience seems to be cheering Poe on. I feel so connected to her.

@finnobliterateshux replied:

Oh dear god, I hope your last will and testament are already prepared

Don’t be silly, I’ve seen bad movies before. I can do this.

The dreadnought’s canons can’t hit objects that are too…. close. Like an X-Wing that’s gotten close enough to obliterate them. Okay. Sounds fake but okay.

A mechanical malfunction on Poe’s X-Wing. What lovely contrived suspense in the middle of battle. On the plus side, I think this is the first time we see underneath an astromech’s berth and the innards of an X-Wing!

Poe is suddenly a loose cannon that’s delaying the evac to take down this dreadnought. Sounds REALLY fake, but okay.

Also like, Leia doesn’t have communication with any of the bombers in Poe’s command? Poe mutes her on the X-Wing (how did someone like this make Commander and WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO POE) and suddenly she has no way to abort the mission?

So if, say, Poe’s X-Wing were shot down–a very likely possibility when he went in alone like that–she had no way to reach the bombers and they would have gone ahead anyway? Was there a valid reason the bombers didn’t have communication with the cruiser?

Or is this Leia throwing up her hands and deciding to let the attack go forward? If so she’s given her tacit blessing to Poe’s new plan and it seems like she should take responsibility for that choice. I’m like five minutes in and this thing already makes no sense.

I had literally the same thought re: Leia’s inability to command the rest of the bomber/fighter group. Were they all okay with shutting off their communications and disobeying her? Boy, that sure makes her sound like a competent leader that her entire fighter wing/bomber group would gladly ignore her orders just because Poe was doing something. Ugh.

Oh thank GOD I wasn’t the only one, I was wondering if I’d missed something crucial. So that’s a third possibility, that there was a conspiracy–silently or offscreen–to say “fuck you” to Leia and mute her. In which case the roots of the mutiny go way back and yeah, the Resistance would have been a mess from long before. This would actually be interesting except there was zero buildup and nothing in the subsequent narrative seems to support it. There’s just no way to square this sequence with both the narrative and common fucking sense.

There’s also a fourth possibility, that Poe somehow jammed communications between the cruiser and his group, except it makes no sense and brings Poe into evil mastermind territory that is also not supported by the later narrative.

Can we talk about how fucking nonsensical these bombers are? Okay, I’ll let the vertical payload delivery in space slide, SW has always treated its space battles like there were some sort of gravity or up and down in space, and maybe the bombs have to go in a specific direction to make a specific chain reaction idk.

But why are these things so fragile? Don’t they have shields? Like, a burning TIE brushes against one of their stupid-looking… pipe… thingies and the whole thing disintegrates? What was the point of taking out the cannons on the dreadnought if these bombers crumble at anything fucking touching them? It’s like “Tag, you’re it!” except you blow up on getting tagged.

And oh wow, Poe Dameron, who couldn’t bear to watch other fighters being shot down at Starkiller Base and chose to risk only his own life, the experienced career officer who had nothing but the highest respect for Leia, has in the space of like, a week? morphed into this unrecognizable character who openly flaunts her orders (which she is mysteriously unable to communicate to any other ship in his group due to either bullshit technical reasons or her being a bullshit leader no one takes seriously), loses almost all his tissue-paper bombers on this foolhardy venture, and shouts at the last of them to basically give her life for The Cause. I don’t know who this person is that stole his face and his name, but I sure do miss Poe.

None of this should take away from the great performance given by Veronica Ngo as Paige, scared, vulnerable, determined, and brave in the space of her very short appearance. I hope she goes on to greater things on the strength of her appearance here.

And fuck you forever Jonestown for making me watch and love a heroic woman of color on screen only to watch her be fucking burned alive. Oh wait, JJ did that too with Korr Sella. Fuck you both!

The dreadnought’s canons can’t hit objects that are too…. close. Like an X-Wing that’s gotten close enough to obliterate them. Okay. Sounds fake but okay.

I stopped partway through, partially because I didn’t want to get even more spoiled than I already was, but partially because this really stuck out for me. That’s… entirely plausible. Large-scale weapons often have a minimum effective range, due to factors like length of the barrel, explosive ordnance only arming after a certain distance (so you don’t accidentally blow yourself up if you fall short), not blowing yourself up if it does come out of the barrel armed, reduced traversal speed due to weight and size of the weapon, or any number of other factors. That’s one of the reasons point defenses are a thing.

I don’t know exactly how these cannons operate, so I can’t say for sure what the reason might be, but it’d honestly be more of a departure from expectations if they could hit things no matter how close they are.

I see your point. Explosive ordnance doesn’t seem to be an issue because these are beam weapons as far as I can tell, but I can see that Poe’s X-Wing could be too small and quick to hit.

And maybe being too close to one of the cannons means a) it’s too close for that cannon to swing around to hit unless Poe is standing right in front of the barrel, which is unlikely, and b) the other cannons can’t strike Poe either because they might miss and take out one of their own with friendly fire. When the guy said the X-Wing is “too close” I assumed something like point-blank range, but being too close and a little off the line of fire is much likelier.

@loopy777 that makes sense! I liked the trench run, other than the jammed-in (literally) mechanical problems. I would have preferred more focus on the dogfight aspect, personally. The TIEs seemed to sort of fade into the background while BB-8 struggled in the X-Wing’s innards.

Of course, all of this is after-the-fact rationalization done by the supplementary materials to justify battles that seem like they belong in WW2-era propaganda films.

The EU’s consistent attempt to sell the idea that TIEs were all fragile unshielded laser-platforms whose pilots were left in danger because EVIL, compared to the Rebel starfighters that all had shields and missiles of some kind because GOOD, never quite landed. TFA gave TIEs shields, missiles, and a gunnery station, happily. (AND a hyperdrive, but the old TIEs lacking hyperspace capability was straight out of ANH in a throwaway line of dialogue that I doubt anyone thought through.)

As far as I recall, though, no one in the X-Wing books got slapped. But Corran Horn deserved it more than a few times.

I think part of the series’ charm is its oldschool aesthetics, so it works for me!

What was the ANH line? I always assumed the TIEs lacking capability was something they’d worked out beforehand. I’m beginning to think I greatly overestimate the amount of forethought that goes into this universe.

Maybe no one got slapped because using violence as discipline is grossly unprofessional, no matter how much they deserve it. The Korean military was extremely bad about violence by superiors, though things have gotten a little better. Corporeal punishment should have no place in the militaries of democracies.

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painkillerscoffeeandcathair:

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icandothis-icandothis:

Rian Johnson has some real problem with male maturity. He took two oldest members of the new cast and gave them storylines about boys.

Keylo is fucking 30 yo, he’s been in his edgelord-space-nazi-killer-of-innocents phase for 10 years now. And yet he’s framed as a “boy” by the narrative, starting with Snoke literarly calling him that, to showing him constantly vulnerable and emo and and cowering or having emotional outbreaks (*cough* tantrums *cough*) He was childish in TFA but in TLJ it’s actually given a sympathetic angle, he’s not “childish” he’s young, delicate and conflicted, he’s “coming to know himself” and all that bullshit. He’s also given a “tragic” backstory and is constantly shown to be somehow abused by older people (snoke, luke). Almost up untill the very end, he’s shown to be coerced/forced/influenced by the circumstances and people older and stronger than himself.
He’s thirty (30) and he’s given a tragic “coming of age/discovering oneself” story fucking 10 years too late.

Poe is 32, a commander in the Resistance, a rank you don’t just get overnight and without loads of field experience, and yet, somehow, he’s regressed in TLJ to a stage of a young, hot-headed, irresponsible buck, a kid with too much audacity that needs to “learn a lesson”, needs to mature by being put down. During the entirety of the first half of his arc, he’s not once treated seriously by neither the narrative nor the other characters. He’s treated like a disobedient child who needs to be taught a lesson. Leia, his superior officer, slaps him to punish him. Then when she gets to him during his mutiny, she just wordlessly stunts him into unconsciousness as if he’s not worth any negotiations, any reasoning, cause he’s just a stupid child. The same thing happens later when Holdo and Leia leer over unconscious Poe and say they like him cause he’s a troublemaker – they are two military leaders saying that about a subordinate officer who’s just lead a mutiny, like, they are not once treating the situation with the gravity it deserves. The whole thing is framed into a loving and wise parent forgiving a petulant child for acting out, but it’s a grown ass man, a Captain leading a rebelion against the military chain of command!

And, apart from all of the above, any “coming of age and learning important life lessons to be less childish in the future” storyline given to a 32 y-o grown ass man is completely illogical

Of course it’s symptomatic that the white vile villain is given the sympathetic, “sweet child o’mine” story and the latino hero is reduced to an agressive, irresponsible teenager.

And it’s also symptomatic that the story about being young and finding yourself somehow bypasses the characters who actually need that story.

Rey? She’s like, a literal teenager who did not really have a childhood, she’s nineteen and thrust into a completely new world. She needs to learn about it, she needs to find herself in it. Instead she’s given the tired “woman tries to safe a douchebag” trope.

Finn?? He’s just a little older than Rey, he’s just pretty recently finished his childhood years without having an actual childhood, he’s just come of age and symulteniously has just freed himself from under soul-crushing abuse. He needs a “finding oneself” story on so many levels. His “coming of age” story has so much potential angles to it, so many themes to explore! Yet the only thing he gets to know abt himself is that he’s a Rebel scum (and isn’t it Resistance scum?) but the actual road to him starting to identify with the movement is just not shown at all. You don’t actually see what he’s transitioning from, because the “personal to political” shift in his involvement is just barely sketched out.

tl;dr: rian gives teenager storylines to grown-ass men, and not actual teenagers or young people and that’s fucked up and also racist and pretty sexist, the end

I’m not going to say this interpretation is *wrong*, but…well, there are many points in life that offer us opportunities for change. Adolescence, yes – but again at 25, and 30, and 40..Or after a breakup, a job loss, an illness.

We know that VII was Finn’s first “real” battle. We know that in smaller organizations, promotions can happen quickly when attrition is high. So Finn could be 27 and be a garbage man – and now he has blood on his hands. Poe has been raised in the Rebellion, but his desire to flatten it can outstrip his common sense. And Kylo Ren is coping with his mythical uncle losing faith in him – then losing faith in himself. These are all points for emotional growth – but that growth is messy and nonlinear.

Could you clarify what you mean by Finn being 27 and a garbage man? Because he’s neither, and the FO is not a ‘smaller’ organization. Do you mean he would have been a garbage man at 27 if it weren’t for high attrition among Stormtrooper ranks? He was actually the top of his class, though, considered prime officer material, and he wasn’t promoted out of desperation for warm bodies or anything like that.

Poe was similarly a commander in the Republic army–again, not a small organization and an army in peacetime so not one with high attrition–before he resigned and joined the Resistance, where he was given the same rank before hostilities commenced. Again, not a case of jumped-up wartime promotion.

If there’s a case of rapid promotion by attrition it’s Kylo Ren, and that’s because he attrited the competition himself.

Sorry – “sanitation engineer”. The beginning of TFA, that’s his *first* time in battle. He’s been A JANITOR.

I’m sorry this movie is more complicated than you wanted. But it’s the most HUMAN – humans are messy, and hot-headed, and selfish (yes, Finn is being selfish when he tries to run away again – he’s doing it for Rey’s sake, but the Rebellion *needs* Rey, and he doesn’t see that). We don’t just learn lessons in adolescence, but we (hopefully) *keep learning* things about ourselves, keep growing and changing.

I’m not the same person at 46 that I was at 25 – and thank goodness for that.

He. Was. Not. A. Janitor. He was a CADET who had duties around base just like the other cadets. Did you read ANYTHING I told you or do you just live in racist la-la-land?

And it’s cute how you think anyone who doesn’t worship at the altar of your precious movie just doesn’t have your intelligence. Nice job not even being able to stay on topic, this post said nothing about Finn being selfish and was actually in part about Finn NOT getting a proper finding-himself arc, and how Kylo and Poe are treated as adolescents while Rey and Finn aren’t.

Maybe try more coffee and less painkillers next time? Pretentious fucking asshole.

This asshole piece of shit, after being rude for no fucking reason to someone who was politely asking a question and presenting canon facts: Is mad at being called names.

This lying piece of shit, after being shown a literal screencap showing why they’re wrong: Calls their racist misinterpretation of the movie “facts.”

This weak-ass piece of shit, after veering off topic and having every word refuted: Oh ho ho, you can’t refute my argument! Blocked!

What a piece of shit.

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redrikki:

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I’ve started watching TLJ lads wish me luck

Ok the opening sequence isn’t too bad… sense of suspense, funny back-and-forth between Poe and Leia. A bit heavy with the jokes, Hux is a little too humorless and wooden, but hey, it’s lighthearted adventure.

Also I don’t speak Spanish but an older lady in the audience seems to be cheering Poe on. I feel so connected to her.

@finnobliterateshux replied:

Oh dear god, I hope your last will and testament are already prepared

Don’t be silly, I’ve seen bad movies before. I can do this.

The dreadnought’s canons can’t hit objects that are too…. close. Like an X-Wing that’s gotten close enough to obliterate them. Okay. Sounds fake but okay.

A mechanical malfunction on Poe’s X-Wing. What lovely contrived suspense in the middle of battle. On the plus side, I think this is the first time we see underneath an astromech’s berth and the innards of an X-Wing!

Poe is suddenly a loose cannon that’s delaying the evac to take down this dreadnought. Sounds REALLY fake, but okay.

Also like, Leia doesn’t have communication with any of the bombers in Poe’s command? Poe mutes her on the X-Wing (how did someone like this make Commander and WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO POE) and suddenly she has no way to abort the mission?

So if, say, Poe’s X-Wing were shot down–a very likely possibility when he went in alone like that–she had no way to reach the bombers and they would have gone ahead anyway? Was there a valid reason the bombers didn’t have communication with the cruiser?

Or is this Leia throwing up her hands and deciding to let the attack go forward? If so she’s given her tacit blessing to Poe’s new plan and it seems like she should take responsibility for that choice. I’m like five minutes in and this thing already makes no sense.

I had literally the same thought re: Leia’s inability to command the rest of the bomber/fighter group. Were they all okay with shutting off their communications and disobeying her? Boy, that sure makes her sound like a competent leader that her entire fighter wing/bomber group would gladly ignore her orders just because Poe was doing something. Ugh.

Oh thank GOD I wasn’t the only one, I was wondering if I’d missed something crucial. So that’s a third possibility, that there was a conspiracy–silently or offscreen–to say “fuck you” to Leia and mute her. In which case the roots of the mutiny go way back and yeah, the Resistance would have been a mess from long before. This would actually be interesting except there was zero buildup and nothing in the subsequent narrative seems to support it. There’s just no way to square this sequence with both the narrative and common fucking sense.

There’s also a fourth possibility, that Poe somehow jammed communications between the cruiser and his group, except it makes no sense and brings Poe into evil mastermind territory that is also not supported by the later narrative.

Can we talk about how fucking nonsensical these bombers are? Okay, I’ll let the vertical payload delivery in space slide, SW has always treated its space battles like there were some sort of gravity or up and down in space, and maybe the bombs have to go in a specific direction to make a specific chain reaction idk.

But why are these things so fragile? Don’t they have shields? Like, a burning TIE brushes against one of their stupid-looking… pipe… thingies and the whole thing disintegrates? What was the point of taking out the cannons on the dreadnought if these bombers crumble at anything fucking touching them? It’s like “Tag, you’re it!” except you blow up on getting tagged.

And oh wow, Poe Dameron, who couldn’t bear to watch other fighters being shot down at Starkiller Base and chose to risk only his own life, the experienced career officer who had nothing but the highest respect for Leia, has in the space of like, a week? morphed into this unrecognizable character who openly flaunts her orders (which she is mysteriously unable to communicate to any other ship in his group due to either bullshit technical reasons or her being a bullshit leader no one takes seriously), loses almost all his tissue-paper bombers on this foolhardy venture, and shouts at the last of them to basically give her life for The Cause. I don’t know who this person is that stole his face and his name, but I sure do miss Poe.

None of this should take away from the great performance given by Veronica Ngo as Paige, scared, vulnerable, determined, and brave in the space of her very short appearance. I hope she goes on to greater things on the strength of her appearance here.

And fuck you forever Jonestown for making me watch and love a heroic woman of color on screen only to watch her be fucking burned alive. Oh wait, JJ did that too with Korr Sella. Fuck you both!

@finnobliterateshux replied:

Yeah, there’s absolutely zero reason to believe Leia and command couldn’t communicate with the bombers when they communicated with all the x-wings in TFA. It’s contrived garbage to make Poe responsible for a lot of death for zero (0) reason.

And now on the bridge they’re cheering that the dreadnought is down. So let me get this straight: The entire bridge crew watched Leia trying to talk Poe down, watched him ignore her, and now they’re cheering the fact that he was right.

We have just watched Leia be humiliated in front of her own bridge and her own soldiers are celebrating the fact that she was openly proven wrong.

If this were a more coherent movie I’d say we’re watching the leadership of the Resistance slip out of Leia’s hands, that they don’t trust her judgment anymore and the later mutiny was just a matter of time because Poe, unlike her, can make the tough calls and do what needs to be done. This holds even truer if the other bombers and X-Wings ignored her too, like @redrikki posited.

OR, alternately, she DID give her blessing to the mission by not ordering the bombers to stand down and the victory they’re celebrating on the bridge is just as much hers as Poe’s, making her just as responsible for the loss of life as well.

So, barring completely contrived and unbelievable technical reasons for being unable to contact the bombers, it either comes down to: a) Leia is an ineffectual leader whose humiliation the bridge crew are openly celebrating, or b) Leia is a have-it-both-ways kind of asshole boss who takes credit for a mission she tacitly allowed but refuses to take responsibility for the cost of that mission, choosing to blame it all on Poe. Either way it’s not a good look for Leia. What have you done to Princess Leia, Jonesing?

@bootsandwriting replied:

This sounds about as bad as I expected. Thanks for taking the bullet for me.

Saaaaave meeee…

Hoax’s face as the cruiser gets away OMG. He wants to take Snoke’s call from his chambers (I keep wanting to say “ready room”) and then Snooker’s GIANT FUCKING FACE filling the whole bridge 😂😂😂

Hmm, where is Smokey that he can spin Hoogs around like he’s playing spin-the-ginger-ale-bottle? If he can use the Force from a distance, is this like an early foreshadowing of Luke’s Force projection?

“We have them tied on the end of a string.” Now that sounds ominous, and I like the desperately-groveling-yet-scheming evil minion/mastermind thing going on here. I can tell Gleeson’s having a ball with this performance and that makes me enjoy it, too.

Omg omg omg Finn is on screen!! Calling it a night because I’ve reached the end of my energy and patience, and knowing what comes next I’m going to need to steel myself. But stil… IT’S FINN. I feel like crying with joy.

@awakening5 replied:

Can I just tell you how much I love your play-by-play here? I thought I had been quite thorough as I detailed my disdain for this movie to friends and family, but I only scratched the surface, apparently.

Aww, thank you! I didn’t expect to find even MORE things wrong with the movie after all the numerous spoilers I’ve read, but the bomber communication thing just stood out. Maybe I noticed because the movie isn’t meant to be watched with such frequent pauses and be picked apart, but with good movies generally the focus on details tend to enhance the experience rather than derail it.

@kyberfox replied:

Seriously. I’ve seen some contrived plots in my time. I’ve sat through the entirety of the PT multiple times and George is the king of contrived plots, but Rian is the emperor of them. The whole opening sequence makes no sense and things only gets worse from there

Emperor Rian of the Galactic Contrived Plots Empire has a certain ring to it.

Oh God, I have more ranting to look forward to, huh.

@finnobliterateshux replied:

This is why I hate when people say this is a feminist movie. Leia’s character was assassinated along with everyone else. Rian’s lame effort at creating conflict because he can’t tell a story any other way comes at the expense of all reason and logic.

It’s just so… incoherent. If Mr. Johnston can’t create organic conflict within the constraints of character and situation, maybe he should have written an essay about Star Wars instead of trying to make a movie.

@kyberfox replied:

And re: the bombers. I really didn’t get it either. The Resistance is supposed to run on old tech, but the “old tech” bombing wise were Y-Wings. Which are slow as hell and generally needed X-Wing support to make their runs, but they were durable as hell. Which was why the Rebellion used them even though they were already going out of date then. But yeah, those bombers made eff all sense. In a scene that makes no sense whatsoever

Wouldn’t it be nice for bombers to be durable? Because they’re carrying… like… dangerous payload into enemy territory where they will come under heavy attack. Or something.

And if these bombers are that fragile, why not turn that into a strength and have the ships turned into flying bombs that would detonate on impact? It looks like this was considered a suicide mission anyway–Paige was clearly running around operating a craft meant for a much bigger crew, meaning the Resistance used only the bare minimum of manpower anticipating heavy losses because what the fuck is autopilot in a world with sentient droids–so why not make every one count?

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redrikki:

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I’ve started watching TLJ lads wish me luck

Ok the opening sequence isn’t too bad… sense of suspense, funny back-and-forth between Poe and Leia. A bit heavy with the jokes, Hux is a little too humorless and wooden, but hey, it’s lighthearted adventure.

Also I don’t speak Spanish but an older lady in the audience seems to be cheering Poe on. I feel so connected to her.

@finnobliterateshux replied:

Oh dear god, I hope your last will and testament are already prepared

Don’t be silly, I’ve seen bad movies before. I can do this.

The dreadnought’s canons can’t hit objects that are too…. close. Like an X-Wing that’s gotten close enough to obliterate them. Okay. Sounds fake but okay.

A mechanical malfunction on Poe’s X-Wing. What lovely contrived suspense in the middle of battle. On the plus side, I think this is the first time we see underneath an astromech’s berth and the innards of an X-Wing!

Poe is suddenly a loose cannon that’s delaying the evac to take down this dreadnought. Sounds REALLY fake, but okay.

Also like, Leia doesn’t have communication with any of the bombers in Poe’s command? Poe mutes her on the X-Wing (how did someone like this make Commander and WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO POE) and suddenly she has no way to abort the mission?

So if, say, Poe’s X-Wing were shot down–a very likely possibility when he went in alone like that–she had no way to reach the bombers and they would have gone ahead anyway? Was there a valid reason the bombers didn’t have communication with the cruiser?

Or is this Leia throwing up her hands and deciding to let the attack go forward? If so she’s given her tacit blessing to Poe’s new plan and it seems like she should take responsibility for that choice. I’m like five minutes in and this thing already makes no sense.

I had literally the same thought re: Leia’s inability to command the rest of the bomber/fighter group. Were they all okay with shutting off their communications and disobeying her? Boy, that sure makes her sound like a competent leader that her entire fighter wing/bomber group would gladly ignore her orders just because Poe was doing something. Ugh.

Oh thank GOD I wasn’t the only one, I was wondering if I’d missed something crucial. So that’s a third possibility, that there was a conspiracy–silently or offscreen–to say “fuck you” to Leia and mute her. In which case the roots of the mutiny go way back and yeah, the Resistance would have been a mess from long before. This would actually be interesting except there was zero buildup and nothing in the subsequent narrative seems to support it. There’s just no way to square this sequence with both the narrative and common fucking sense.

There’s also a fourth possibility, that Poe somehow jammed communications between the cruiser and his group, except it makes no sense and brings Poe into evil mastermind territory that is also not supported by the later narrative.

Can we talk about how fucking nonsensical these bombers are? Okay, I’ll let the vertical payload delivery in space slide, SW has always treated its space battles like there were some sort of gravity or up and down in space, and maybe the bombs have to go in a specific direction to make a specific chain reaction idk.

But why are these things so fragile? Don’t they have shields? Like, a burning TIE brushes against one of their stupid-looking… pipe… thingies and the whole thing disintegrates? What was the point of taking out the cannons on the dreadnought if these bombers crumble at anything fucking touching them? It’s like “Tag, you’re it!” except you blow up on getting tagged.

And oh wow, Poe Dameron, who couldn’t bear to watch other fighters being shot down at Starkiller Base and chose to risk only his own life, the experienced career officer who had nothing but the highest respect for Leia, has in the space of like, a week? morphed into this unrecognizable character who openly flaunts her orders (which she is mysteriously unable to communicate to any other ship in his group due to either bullshit technical reasons or her being a bullshit leader no one takes seriously), loses almost all his tissue-paper bombers on this foolhardy venture, and shouts at the last of them to basically give her life for The Cause. I don’t know who this person is that stole his face and his name, but I sure do miss Poe.

None of this should take away from the great performance given by Veronica Ngo as Paige, scared, vulnerable, determined, and brave in the space of her very short appearance. I hope she goes on to greater things on the strength of her appearance here.

And fuck you forever Jonestown for making me watch and love a heroic woman of color on screen only to watch her be fucking burned alive. Oh wait, JJ did that too with Korr Sella. Fuck you both!

@finnobliterateshux replied:

Yeah, there’s absolutely zero reason to believe Leia and command couldn’t communicate with the bombers when they communicated with all the x-wings in TFA. It’s contrived garbage to make Poe responsible for a lot of death for zero (0) reason.

And now on the bridge they’re cheering that the dreadnought is down. So let me get this straight: The entire bridge crew watched Leia trying to talk Poe down, watched him ignore her, and now they’re cheering the fact that he was right.

We have just watched Leia be humiliated in front of her own bridge and her own soldiers are celebrating the fact that she was openly proven wrong.

If this were a more coherent movie I’d say we’re watching the leadership of the Resistance slip out of Leia’s hands, that they don’t trust her judgment anymore and the later mutiny was just a matter of time because Poe, unlike her, can make the tough calls and do what needs to be done. This holds even truer if the other bombers and X-Wings ignored her too, like @redrikki posited.

OR, alternately, she DID give her blessing to the mission by not ordering the bombers to stand down and the victory they’re celebrating on the bridge is just as much hers as Poe’s, making her just as responsible for the loss of life as well.

So, barring completely contrived and unbelievable technical reasons for being unable to contact the bombers, it either comes down to: a) Leia is an ineffectual leader whose humiliation the bridge crew are openly celebrating, or b) Leia is a have-it-both-ways kind of asshole boss who takes credit for a mission she tacitly allowed but refuses to take responsibility for the cost of that mission, choosing to blame it all on Poe. Either way it’s not a good look for Leia. What have you done to Princess Leia, Jonesing?

@bootsandwriting replied:

This sounds about as bad as I expected. Thanks for taking the bullet for me.

Saaaaave meeee…

Hoax’s face as the cruiser gets away OMG. He wants to take Snoke’s call from his chambers (I keep wanting to say “ready room”) and then Snooker’s GIANT FUCKING FACE filling the whole bridge 😂😂😂

Hmm, where is Smokey that he can spin Hoogs around like he’s playing spin-the-ginger-ale-bottle? If he can use the Force from a distance, is this like an early foreshadowing of Luke’s Force projection?

“We have them tied on the end of a string.” Now that sounds ominous, and I like the desperately-groveling-yet-scheming evil minion/mastermind thing going on here. I can tell Gleeson’s having a ball with this performance and that makes me enjoy it, too.

Omg omg omg Finn is on screen!! Calling it a night because I’ve reached the end of my energy and patience, and knowing what comes next I’m going to need to steel myself. But stil… IT’S FINN. I feel like crying with joy.

painkillerscoffeeandcathair:

icandothis-icandothis:

Rian Johnson has some real problem with male maturity. He took two oldest members of the new cast and gave them storylines about boys.

Keylo is fucking 30 yo, he’s been in his edgelord-space-nazi-killer-of-innocents phase for 10 years now. And yet he’s framed as a “boy” by the narrative, starting with Snoke literarly calling him that, to showing him constantly vulnerable and emo and and cowering or having emotional outbreaks (*cough* tantrums *cough*) He was childish in TFA but in TLJ it’s actually given a sympathetic angle, he’s not “childish” he’s young, delicate and conflicted, he’s “coming to know himself” and all that bullshit. He’s also given a “tragic” backstory and is constantly shown to be somehow abused by older people (snoke, luke). Almost up untill the very end, he’s shown to be coerced/forced/influenced by the circumstances and people older and stronger than himself.
He’s thirty (30) and he’s given a tragic “coming of age/discovering oneself” story fucking 10 years too late.

Poe is 32, a commander in the Resistance, a rank you don’t just get overnight and without loads of field experience, and yet, somehow, he’s regressed in TLJ to a stage of a young, hot-headed, irresponsible buck, a kid with too much audacity that needs to “learn a lesson”, needs to mature by being put down. During the entirety of the first half of his arc, he’s not once treated seriously by neither the narrative nor the other characters. He’s treated like a disobedient child who needs to be taught a lesson. Leia, his superior officer, slaps him to punish him. Then when she gets to him during his mutiny, she just wordlessly stunts him into unconsciousness as if he’s not worth any negotiations, any reasoning, cause he’s just a stupid child. The same thing happens later when Holdo and Leia leer over unconscious Poe and say they like him cause he’s a troublemaker – they are two military leaders saying that about a subordinate officer who’s just lead a mutiny, like, they are not once treating the situation with the gravity it deserves. The whole thing is framed into a loving and wise parent forgiving a petulant child for acting out, but it’s a grown ass man, a Captain leading a rebelion against the military chain of command!

And, apart from all of the above, any “coming of age and learning important life lessons to be less childish in the future” storyline given to a 32 y-o grown ass man is completely illogical

Of course it’s symptomatic that the white vile villain is given the sympathetic, “sweet child o’mine” story and the latino hero is reduced to an agressive, irresponsible teenager.

And it’s also symptomatic that the story about being young and finding yourself somehow bypasses the characters who actually need that story.

Rey? She’s like, a literal teenager who did not really have a childhood, she’s nineteen and thrust into a completely new world. She needs to learn about it, she needs to find herself in it. Instead she’s given the tired “woman tries to safe a douchebag” trope.

Finn?? He’s just a little older than Rey, he’s just pretty recently finished his childhood years without having an actual childhood, he’s just come of age and symulteniously has just freed himself from under soul-crushing abuse. He needs a “finding oneself” story on so many levels. His “coming of age” story has so much potential angles to it, so many themes to explore! Yet the only thing he gets to know abt himself is that he’s a Rebel scum (and isn’t it Resistance scum?) but the actual road to him starting to identify with the movement is just not shown at all. You don’t actually see what he’s transitioning from, because the “personal to political” shift in his involvement is just barely sketched out.

tl;dr: rian gives teenager storylines to grown-ass men, and not actual teenagers or young people and that’s fucked up and also racist and pretty sexist, the end

I’m not going to say this interpretation is *wrong*, but…well, there are many points in life that offer us opportunities for change. Adolescence, yes – but again at 25, and 30, and 40..Or after a breakup, a job loss, an illness.

We know that VII was Finn’s first “real” battle. We know that in smaller organizations, promotions can happen quickly when attrition is high. So Finn could be 27 and be a garbage man – and now he has blood on his hands. Poe has been raised in the Rebellion, but his desire to flatten it can outstrip his common sense. And Kylo Ren is coping with his mythical uncle losing faith in him – then losing faith in himself. These are all points for emotional growth – but that growth is messy and nonlinear.

Could you clarify what you mean by Finn being 27 and a garbage man? Because he’s neither, and the FO is not a ‘smaller’ organization. Do you mean he would have been a garbage man at 27 if it weren’t for high attrition among Stormtrooper ranks? He was actually the top of his class, though, considered prime officer material, and he wasn’t promoted out of desperation for warm bodies or anything like that.

Poe was similarly a commander in the Republic army–again, not a small organization and an army in peacetime so not one with high attrition–before he resigned and joined the Resistance, where he was given the same rank before hostilities commenced. Again, not a case of jumped-up wartime promotion.

If there’s a case of rapid promotion by attrition it’s Kylo Ren, and that’s because he attrited the competition himself.

worth-three-portions:

kelloxjello:

Finn: Chooses to runaway from the First Order in shame and disgust in what they brought him up to be

Finn: Spares the life of the villagers he’s supposed to be slaughtering because he’s not fucking braindead evil

Finn: Sees Rey (a complete stranger at that point) being attacked; instantaneously runs to her defence because he sees danger

Finn: Takes Rey’s hand when he hears TIE Fighters and realises he’s marked her

Finn: Assures Rey if she’s okay after caught up in the blast

Finn: Takes care of Chewie after he was shot

Finn: Literally fucking requests Rey if she wants to go with him to the outer rim because he KNOWS how fucking dangerous the First Order are, and wants her to be safe from that shit

Finn: Warmly accepts her decline and says “take care of yourself. Please.”

Finn: Cancels the fuck out of his plans when star destroyer is used and fights

Finn: Fucking screams R E Y at the top of his lungs when she’s kidnapped by Ren

Finn: Goes back to his trauma, what he wanted to run away from to get his friend back

Finn: Fights Ren and literally ends up in a coma to defend himself as well as Rey

Finn: Wakes up in a coma and his first inquiry is Rey’s whereabouts

Finn: Literally wants to runaway with the beacon to ensure that when Rey returns, she doesn’t return to danger

LucasFilm: Finn needed to go to Canto Bight so he could learn to stop being a selfish assh0le!!1!1!

I agree with what @reystars, @rose-tico and others are saying about the intended *purpose* of Finn’s storyline: after a lifetime of being enslaved and brainwashed his instinct was to flee as far away as possible and take Rey with him to safety, and it was important for him to understand that there was no safety anywhere in the galaxy as long as the FO existed, because the war affected everything and people were supporting it for their own profit, and therefore Finn needed to join the Resistance and actively fight to defeat the FO in order to create a galaxy where the satefy for him and Rey and everyone else could become a reality. I understand that.

HOWEVER

– if the only way the director could think of to achieve this was to put Finn in a sideplot which nearly every reviewer agrees had no impact on the main storyline and felt tonally disjointed from the rest of the movie;

– if Finn, the male lead, is put in a sideplot instead of the main plot, period (and it was percieved as a sideplot, just check how few TLJ reviews in non-fandom media even mention the Resistance storyine at all);

– if Finn is not allowed to learn the truth about Canto Bight on his own e.g. by observing or overhearing something, figuring it out himself and only then asking Rose for a confirmation/more information, but Rose has to explain the world to a naive Finn instead;

– if Finn, the male lead, is repeatedly used for comic relief; repeatedly physically harmed, often for comedic effect as well; and generally not treated with the necessary respect and seriousness by the narrative (e.g. his duel against Phasma lasting only a couple of minutes and its gravitas diminished by silly quibs like “chrome dome” and Finn and Phasma’s relationship and shared past not further explored; scenes that would have given Finn more character depth and background about his childhood and life as a FO stormtrooper and set up a possible stormtrooper rebellion storyline for episode IX being cut; or even just Finn’s shirtless scene in the bacta suit being presented as something comedic and ridiculous (and used for queerbaiting) with his recovery from a life-threatening injury not further commented on, while Kyle was shown recovering from his injuries over time and his shirtless scene was presented as “sexy”);

…so in short, if the male lead is treated this way then it’s small wonder most viewers do not care about his arc or even realise what his arc is supposed to be in the movie.

Intentions: good, execution: piss poor 😦

Countless fanfiction authors have proven that it is absolutely possible to write a narrative where Finn learns about the state of the wider galaxy and decides to commit himself to the Resistance’s cause wholeheartedly *without* sidelining or disrespecting him, so TLJ could have and should have done better.

(Also Disney really needs to have a serious word with the guy in charge of the SW Facebook account 😦 )