long thread – Page 9 – L.J.'s Obsessions

sithchirrut:

sithchirrut:

Ever since we got the teaser trailer for Pacific Rim Uprising and I got some “semi creepy propaganda” vibes of it and its promotion of the Jaeger program, I’ve been wondering what the Jaeger program turned into post the First Kaiju war. And with the trailer released I’m wondering even more.

Because the Jaegers and the Jaeger program aren’t phrased as a good here – they’re literally called “the monsters we created” and it’s Jake who’s talking here – but as a necessary evil to fight a greater and more destructive evil.

I’m wondering if the Jaegers were used to keep a fearful populace in check? If Jake saw where it all was headed even before the end of the first war and that that is why he left the program? If he had a falling out with his father and sister about it? And if that’s why he got caught up in the criminal underworld which might be the only “free” place left?

Of course, with the Kaiju back in force the Jaegers are once more a very necessary evil and Jake decides for his own reasons to join up again to help.

A few more thoughts after watching the trailer again.

This would go a way to explain Amara, that 15 yo Jaeger hacker that’s in the movie. Why would someone hack a Jaeger?

Okay I know it’s common human nature for some to try and break into stuff where they shouldn’t be, not out of malice but just to see if they can. But on the other hand, it might indicate that some humans anyway seems to need/want protection from the Jaegers.

And then there’s the opening scene where we see said hacker standing in the middle of what looks like a Jaeger attack, but there seems to be no Kaiju around. It looks more like the Jaegers attacking ordinary humans. Then a bit later we see Jake get off something (a helicopter carrier?) along with the 15 yo girl. So she’s with him, and by extension probably part of that criminal underworld mentioned in the synopsis.

Holy shit, I think you’re on to something! You’re right that we don’t see kaiju in the opening of the trailer. In fact, look at what a Jaeger is doing in the background here:

It’s smashing an aircraft, not fighting Kaiju. This is either Jaegers being used in warfare or in some kind of civilian repression, and I’m guessing the latter because this is clearly an urban area and not a battlefield.

Also, I went back and listened to John’s narration as Jake, and noticed something weird in the opening sentences. So my first impression was that the narration was supposed to go like this:

“We were born into a world at war between the monsters that destroyed our cities and the monsters we created to stop them. We thought we had sacrificed enough.”

Which would be straightforward, right? There was a war between the Kaiju and Jaegers, a war that caused untold loss.

But that reading is strange on a couple of levels. For one thing, the war wasn’t between Kaiju and Jaegers, it was between the Kaiju and humans. It would be like saying World War 2 was between Japan and nuclear bombs, it doesn’t fit. For another, that first sentence, “We were born into a world at war” sounds like a complete sentence and the next part, “between the monsters…” reads like the beginning of a new sentence.

So what if the narration actually reads like this?

“We were born into a world at war. Between the monsters that destroyed our cities and the monsters we created to stop them, we thought we had sacrificed enough.”

Completely changes the meaning, doesn’t it? It gets rid of the awkwardness of putting Jaegers, which are weapons of war, in the position of a party to the war. It also sounds closer to my ears to how John is reading the words.

Most significantly, this reading presents the Jaegers as an evil or at the very least a tremendous drain that demanded sacrifices–of expenses and resources, for a start, but what if there was more? Civil liberties? Human lives?

There’s more evidence that Jaegers are being used in conflicts between human groups. There’s the scene of missiles flying in from behind Jaegers to hit some kind of command center, and since when do Kaiju shoot missiles? Those are clearly of human make.

And of course, since those in power make the rules, the “criminal underworld” may simply be people trying to live away from the police state’s control and outlawed for that reason. This possibility helps me feel a lot better about the whole criminal angle, because I really was not looking forward to the prospect of Jake being some unruly delinquent that Mako has to talk into doing the right thing.

If the Jaeger program did go bad, it’s likely to be after 2025 when the events of Pacific Rim took place, since the program was being shut down in the early to mid 2020s and wasn’t in a position of power. Since Stacker died in 2025 before the Jaeger program was diverted Jake’s fallout is unlikely to have been with him, at least over this particular issue.

The period after 2025 and Stacker Pentecost’s death would be a perfect time for the rot to set in. There would be the enormous political capital from the awe toward Jaegers and pilots, the surplus military hardware available at a time of peace (from the Kaiju, anyway), and the militaristic mindset of preparing for the next war through “unity” which would really be thinly-veiled code for obedience and suppression of dissent. All this would set the stage for the countries in the Pan Pacific Defense Corps to turn against each other and/or their own populations.

Assuming Jake had moral objections to the direction the Jaeger program was taking he’d have all the more reason to get off the grid into the underground. Much like Mako, he’s a child of Stacker Pentecost and a perfect pawn for propaganda. If he wants no part in that he’d have to go into hiding because repressive police states are not known for taking kindly to rejection.

maurice-dandi:

culturevulture73:

otterandterrier:

kalinara:

quidditchchick:

obi-wan-ken00b:

neverthebubblegumbitch:

obi-wan-ken00b:

quidditchchick:

I’m so glad Poe is Leia’s new son

ahahahaha oh these people I swear. I SWEAR.

I love how these people so desperately want leia to be a terrible mother xD

almost as if they hated her.

Y’all do realize Leia has no obligation to “be a good mother” to Kylo anymore after he murdered children, kidnapped other children and brainwashed them to kill for him, blew up an entire planet (which is what happened to Alderaan, Leia’s home), and murdered his father, the love of Leia’s life, right??

Like if Leia wants to forgive him and get him to turn back into the light, then that’s fine, it’s her choice.

But calling her a “terrible mother” for saying Poe is like a surrogate son to her and possibly not wanting to call Kylo a son anymore after what he has done is ridiculous.

Kylo is a grown man who directly engaged in the massacre of a village, murdered two unarmed old men (one of whom was his father), aided in the genocide of five planets, stood by with the knowledge that the planet destroying weapon was aimed directly at his mother’s base, and defended said base from the people trying to stop further genocide. ALL ONSCREEN.

Leia owes him nothing. And if Leia does choose not to recognize her son after these acts, that doesn’t make her a terrible mother.

It makes her a human being. And as a Leia fan, I value her as more than just Kylo Ren’s all-forgiving mommy.

maybe… just maybe… the responsibility shouldn’t be ON LEIA at this point… maybe… it’s not that she’s a bad mother… but that Crylow is a terrible son… given that he’s a fucking grown up who CHOSE to cut ties… maybe don’t accuse “these people” of hating Leia when you’re treating her as a fucking tool, a doormat that has to once again find it in herself to be strong and forgiving after being cruelly stepped on BY HER FUCKING GROWN ASS SON.

also, a person can care about multiple people, and multiple children, even if they’re not their children by birth, FLASHNEWS. And Poe’s mother died when he was still a child, so no, saying that Leia is a mother figure to him isn’t meant to erase Shara Bey or to say she “forgot” to care for Ben because she was too busy with Poe (???)

but maybe that’s too simple and straightforward for the reylos’ “superior” subtext analyzing skills *snort*

I felt the need to reblog this again because…

How in the hell is Leia a “terrible mother” if she doesn’t want Kylo Ren back and instead wants a son like Poe?

Huh?

Please come on over and answer me that one. How is she a “terrible mother’ if she doesn’t want him back? Really, how? I mean, I thought collective you had already decided she was a terrible mother for sending him to train with Luke or not hanging on his every word and deed or some such that “caused” Kylo to go off and be a murdering fascist.

But please explain.

Because how is she a “terrible mother” if she doesn’t want back a fascist, genocidal manchild who murdered his uncle’s students and murdered an old family friend and tortured people back? I mean…all he did for an encore was murder his father? Y’know, the man she loved, who loved her? And let’s not forget, aimed a damn super weapon at her.

Why wouldn’t she want him back?

No, the question, is WHY WOULD SHE?

I’ve seen this garbage way too much. How it’s going to be “good” for Leia and Luke, after all they’ve suffered, to have Kylo back/

So, what, they can see every day the man who destroyed their lives and murdered Han?

How does that make them feel any better?

Not that one damn thing that happens to Luke, Leia and Han makes anything “right” in this whole movie, but seriously, you tell me how welcoming back Murder Boy makes Leia’s life good in any way.

Lines are open and operators are standing by.

Yes, I also wanted to point out, that it seems no matter what Leia does, in the eyes of reylos, she always be a bad mother. No matter what she does, she can’t win. Either she’s seen as a neglectful mother, who causes Kylo to fall, or when it turns out that canonically Leia, Han, and Luke! were loving, caring parents to this bastard, then the narrative shifts, and she is blamed to be a bad mother just because of acts like a great! mother figure to other young people.

Leia Organa, adopted daughter to Bail, who was tortured by her biological father, who was almost killed by Kylo, who lost her husband by Kylo’s hand, who’s brother is being hunted down to be killed by Kylo is seen as a bad mother because she knows it’s not genetics that makes you a family. Classy…

jumpingjacktrash:

mikalhvi:

jumpingjacktrash:

the-real-seebs:

amakthel:

thesocialjusticecourier:

thej-key:

arjan-de-lumens:

argumate:

corpus-vak:

vessel-haver:

thefutureoneandall:

argumate:

marcusseldon:

(note: I have no romantic or sexualized experience myself, so I admit *some* of these points rely entirely on secondhand stuff and media)

One thing I think is not talked about very much is that straight men live pretty much desexualized lives if we’re not actually having sex at that moment, and then there’s not much room to be the object rather than subject.

As I’ve said before, we men don’t have clothing options for “dressing sexy” in masculine clothing (there is cross dressing but that is different). There’s no male equivalent to the short skirt or low cut top. There’s no male lingerie that isn’t seen as a joke.

Further, we just don’t get validation for our sexuality outside of a sexual partner. We are almost never complimented for our looks or sexiness from platonic friends like women are, especially same sex friends.

There really aren’t many straight male role models for raw aesthetic sexiness in mainstream culture (besides unnaturally muscled men). In fiction, male characters are almost never attractive for embodying sexiness but rather for doing things (saving the world, being extremely witty, being a genius, winning the tournament, etc.). Their sexiness is non-aesthetic and sometimes is in spite of their aesthetics.

Anecdotally, it seems like a lot of men aren’t even called physically hot and sexy by their own sexual partners, who themselves focus on personality. There’s not much room to fulfill the role of passive sexism object for you partner for many/most men.

I think it is telling that a lot of porn for men ignores the man’s personality and has a woman just throwing themselves at the man, overcome with lust.

Also there the fact that women seem to rarely approach men and some seem to often expect the man to do most of the sexual escalation, especially in the early stages.

We talk about women of color or women who are disabled being sexualized, but we don’t talk about how all straight men are desexualized and denied the ability to be sexualized object.

oh my god… that’s why they send dick pics

“witness me!”

There are occasional reddit threads about things like this: “guys who send unsolicited dick pics, why do you do it?”

The answer always seems to be some combination of slot machine mentality (“maybe this one will like it, and make the other 50 worthwhile”) and a desire for witness. Surprising numbers of people admit that it’s validation even if the reaction is negative, simply because they’re still being viewed in a totally sexual context.

At the very least that has obvious consequences for people trying to reduce dick pic sending. There’s some core of people who can’t possibly be reached with “it’s not attractive to women” because that was never their expectation.

More broadly, I think efforts to get (Western?) men to emphasize with objectification wildly underestimate the challenge they’re facing. It’s not just a sympathy shortage, it’s a totally unfamiliar feeling. Making things even harder, it’s a feeling a lot of men say they wish they could have.

The usual narrative on not (politely) complimenting the appearance of unknown women is “sure, it’s nice if it happens once, but think about how annoyed you’d be if it happened all the time”. Fine in general terms, but I think a lot of men don’t have any way to intuit the emotional difference between too-frequent compliments and being pestered with too much of something totally innocuous like requests for the date.

The comments on those articles are frequently from men saying they’ve literally never received a single compliment from a stranger on their appearance, and can’t imagine what it would be like. The ones who have are often talking about a single, years-old compliment they still cherish. That’s not a framework that supports more than a purely theoretical understanding of what’s it’s like to be valued for your appearance too heavily – or at all.

Obviously that’s not universal, any more than all women are catcalled, but it seems like a really serious communication failure to appeal to a sense of objectification that much of your audience has literally never felt, and desperately wants.

Reblogged because thefutureoneandall describes exactly why I have trouble empathizing with feminism columnists.

Can confirm, I’d take literally any compliment on anything at this point, and would cherish it.

one day we gotta get all the men and all the women to sit down together and hash this stuff out between them, how hard can it be.

This discussion kind of reminds me of a story that made the rounds about a year ago, where
a woman, after having gotten a bit tired with dick pics, decided to try to get her “revenge” of sorts, by sending unsolicited vagina pics to 40 random men:

https://www.thrillist.com/sex-dating/los-angeles/we-sent-a-preemptive-v-pic-before-dudes-could-send-dick-pics-heres-what-happened

Let’s be honest: while I enjoy penises, I don’t necessarily want
unexpected visual boners intruding on my day. I wondered, “What would
guys do if I turned the tables and sent them an unexpected vagina pic?”
And so, in my own twist on revenge porn, I sent 40 unexpected vagina
pics to men on Bumble.

This … didn’t work out the way she apparently expected it to:

Overall, I was surprised that I didn’t get my, “Gotcha!” moment. I’d
initially hoped the guys would see how invasive it is to receive such
intimate photos from a stranger. When I’m excited to get to know a guy,
his penis isn’t the first part of him that I want to know. But given
that men like to send dick pics, I suppose their enthusiasm for v-pics
makes sense.

So, basically, women experience dick picks as a net negative, as an intimacy violation, while men experience v-pics as a huge positive, as validation and an indicator of interest.

This seems consistent with the above discussion, where it’s a pretty common male experience to basically never receive any sexual attention ever and thus respond really strongly positively to whatever scraps come their way (or to start trolling for attention – with the point of some of these dick pics apparently being to get any attention at all, no matter how hostile), while a common female experience seems to be more like being flooded with unwanted sexual attention and wanting a way to make it stop –

resulting in an absolutely massive inferential gap – with the result that if you’re on one side of the gap and try to describe your feelings and experiences to the people on the other side, whatever words you have will just fall on deaf ears because the feeling and experiences you describe are … not just unfamiliar, but outright alien, to the ones on the other side.

This alienness is … mutual.

For men, it feels like no men are sexy to women.

For women, it feels like all women are sexy to men.

It’s like one person dying of dehydration watching another one drown.

“It’s like one person dying of dehydration watching another one drown.”

the conversation has gotten longer, so i’m reblogging

… This is so cool. It actually makes sense.

but of course women are wary of just giving men compliments, because attention-starved men are likely to take it as a come-on. what a dilemma.

So what I’m getting from this…
Is that my idea of taking popular types of fiction and essentially ‘flipping the script’ so that there are sexy male characters as ‘damsel in distress’ types would actually be very good and help a lot of people become comfortable with their sexuality?

it could well! i’m not the guy to answer this really, i’m queer and also i’ve always been pretty comfortable with being the one giving the compliments (and just asking for validation when i need it). but i do think there’s a place in the world for fiction where The Sexy One is male.

consider chris hemsworth in ghostbusters. that one’s a bit mean-spirited, with him being hilariously clueless, but you’ve got that dynamic where what he contributes is, he’s hot. that’s it. and i found it kind of a breath of fresh air, not because it was a fuck-you to sexist tropes, but because it’s never, ever enough for a guy to be attractive, but here it was, and that was fun to see.

And it’s not just him either, the ending credits sequence with the Hemsworth character (or the Big Bad who took over his body, but let’s face it, it was at least a little bit the original personality too) leading men in a mass dance was one of the most mesmerizing pieces of movie footage ever. Isn’t it telling that these male characters, of so many shapes and sizes of awesome, needed the excuse of demonic possession to cut loose and strut their stuff?

It just occurred to me, maybe this is part of the appeal of drag–because there are so few avenues for men to flaunt their sexuality in an aesthetic way and nearly all sexual apparel and dances are gendered female, male performers may find it easier to turn to female presentation for that outlet.

Another piece of speculation: I wonder if this is one basis for some of those incel/MRA type assholes feeling entitled to female bodies and companionship. Not that the sense of entitlement is justified in any way, but because we tie so much of straight men’s humanity–sexuality, emotional and physical intimacy–into romantic/sexual relationships with women that men who don’t have such relationships feel starved.

Of course, the correct challenge to this state of affairs is “Wait, why can’t I have my full humanity unless some chick bangs me? That’s effed up man,” and not “HOW DARE SHE NOT GIVE ME SEX AND ATTENTION THAT IS MY HUMAN RIGHT.”

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

Reylos: Rey will forgive Ben for everything they were enemies in wartime! He did nothing wrong! They’ll have babies and be in love forever. Isn’t forgiveness sweet? 🙂

Also Reylos: There is no way Rey can forgive Finn for lying to her and abandoning her. Sure maybe she was a little starry-eyed at first but that was based on a dirty L I E and there’s no way to make up for that none no way no how

@firebour here’s a reylo saying just that, actually (underline mine).

@firebour None of that contradicts the attitude I mocked in the op, especially the double standard with Finn where Finn telling a fib (and then recanting it) while on the run for his life is evidently a deal breaker for romance but Kylo’s torture, mass murder, and patricide are not. And Reylos do, in fact, frequently argue that Kylo was brainwashed and not responsible for his actions.

Also you might want to rethink that statement comparing Rey’s possible forgiveness to Han’s. Not only is Rey not Kylo’s parent, Han was literally dying of a stab wound when he touched his son’s face one last time. Is that really what you want Rey’s forgiveness to look like? Just how much more do you want her to suffer at Kylo’s hands in the name of romance?

Oh yeah, but you don’t want her to die, I guess, she has to have Kylo’s Skywalker babies first. How generous of you!

attackfish:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

Cultural appropriation and cultural sharing in Avatar: The Last Airbender compared.

Reblogging myself to talk about the ‘Disrespectful’ gif because Mai and Ty Lee’s disrespect in that scene is toward not only the Kyoshi Warriors’ culture but to the Warriors themselves as well. But that’s always the case, isn’t it? Cultural disrespect always goes with personal disrespect. Always.

Mai and Ty Lee’s attitude here plays into a really pernicious stereotype about women in colonialized cultures, that they are hypersexual seductresses out to sink their claws into men, especially men of the colonializing group. Of course the reality is that men of the colonizing group, and often women as well, hypersexualize and prey on the colonized people.

I mean, the Kyoshi Warriors were foraging in the middle of nowhere. They weren’t dressed up to look pretty: their clothes and war paint were their uniforms and ties to their heritage, not look-at-me-I’m-so-beautiful decorations. Yet so ingrained were the stereotypes Mai and Ty Lee had been taught about Earth Kingdom women, they took one look at the Kyoshi Warriors and dismissed them as exotic, sexualized creatures. The Fire Nation girls even seem to take OFFENSE at how the Warriors are dressed, as though their clothes are somehow demeaning or a provocation.

In the process Mai and Ty Lee subtly set themselves up as the more liberated women, the serious fighters as oppsed to these frivolous foreign girls. And I’m willing to bet a lot that the Fire Nation used its comparative gender equality for propaganda purposes, harping on the need to save the oppressed Water Tribe and Earth Kingdom women from Water Tribe and Earth Kingdom men. Sozin’s own stated motivation for starting the war was exactly what we would call a white savior complex if he were white. This is how white feminism and the white savior complex work to reinforce colonialism in our world.

While all the characters in ATLA are coded as POC, mostly Asians, these dynamics of colonialism and supremacy apply across culture and race. In fact I’m quite happy that ATLA depicts these issues between nonwhite peoples. Though colonialism by European and European-descended cultures is the most dominant currently in our world (hence the descriptor ‘white’), it has never been solely a European issue. Just look at how the Air Nomads are explicitly based on Tibet, which is suffering from decades of Chinese colonialism. China and other nonwhite colonializing powers have used their lack of European descent as a shield, but it’s not a defense. Just because European colonization has been massively destructive doesn’t mean other peoples can’t be oppressive as well.

I’d like to add to this idea that Earth Kingdom women are treated to a gendered form of racial or ethnic prejudice, because it runs though more than just the interactions Azula and her minions have with the Kyoshi Warriors. In “Zuko Alone,” for example, when Iroh sends Azula an Earth Kingdom doll, he writes, “And for Azula, a new friend. She wears the latest fashion for Earth Kingdom girls.“ What’s stressed are the aesthetics of her dress, and a hobby that Azula, and later Mai and Ty Lee, plainly associates with girlyness, not only femininity, but a childish, useless femininity.

This derision of Earth Kingdom girls and women as “girly” and overly feminine comes up again not only during the battle with the Kyoshi Warriors, but after as well. Mai for example talks about wanting to get out of the girly disguise she has to wear, i. e., dressing as a Kyoshi Warrior, and when Ty Lee suggests that the Kyoshi Warriors have less depressing make up than Mai.

We can contrast this with what Suki says about her uniform: “It’s a warrior’s uniform. You should be proud. The silk threads symbolizes the brave blood that flows through our
veins. The gold insignia represents the honor of the warrior’s heart.”

Later, in the Comic “Going Home Again,” Azula puts a brainwashed Joo Dee in nominal charge of Ba Sing Se because she is so pliable. If the subjugation of Earth Kingdom girls is a rallying cry for public support for the war in the Fire Nation, it certainly does not trickle down to what happens on the ground. Just as normally happens in real life, Azula is perfectly happy to take over exploiting Earth Kingdom women in a gendered way similar to the way Long Feng did. There isn’t any enlightened spreading of feminist values here, not when gendered exploitation is so useful to the new colonial government.

The implied view that all Earth Kingdom women are oppressed also shows a cultural flattening of the Earth Kingdom. It’s pretty clear from the series that Kyoshi Island culturally distinct from Ba Sing Se or Gaoling. They have different gender roles and norms, and this is entirely ignored by Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee. This is also common to colonial powers historically, and still common today. Think of the way so many white western people treat East Asian ethnicities as interchangeable, especially with regards to and fetishization. In many ways, the implied attitudes of the Fire Nation people toward Earth Kingdom women and girls functions as a G-rated version of that same fetishization process.

Yup, the thing about the colonialist savior complex is that there’s no actual saving involved. These women are exploited in rhetoric to justify colonialism, and also in reality as well. It’s no wonder the Dai Li switched allegiance to Azula–she perpetuated the same system they were part of and benefited from, she just played the game better than Long Feng did.

One of the things I really liked about ATLA was how it showed the Fire Nation’s distorted perception of other cultures compared to their perceptions of themselves. The Kyoshi Warriors are a good example of this as you point out, as is what Earthbending means for Haru vs. the prison warden’s contempt for Earthbenders in the episode “Imprisoned.” The Earth Kingdom and Water Tribe characters have prejudices against Fire Nation people, too, with nearly deadly results when Jet tries to wipe out a village, but it’s also clear that the harm isn’t equal when the Water Tribes and the Earth Kingdoms are undergoing systematic genocide while the Fire Nation is facing, at its outskirts, insurgent pushback–some of it terrorist in nature, as in Jet’s case–from its aggression.

I like how the show’s response to all these complex issues was showing the diversity not only between common groupings but within them. Some Earth Kingdom women, like the Ba Sing Se upper crust, really are pampered and hyperfeminine, and that in itself isn’t a bad thing (though the system of economic exploitation underlying their luxury certainly is), the show’s subtle devaluation of girliness as bad notwithstanding. Katara, Toph, and Sokka all find something to enjoy in the Ba Sing Se high culture that caters to and is shaped by noblewomen. Some Earth Kingdom women are warriors and healers, others are everyday working class people like Jin. That kind of variety is a great antidote to the flattening view the Fire Nation imposed on other cultures, and in a way the whole show gives the lie to the idea of Asian interchangeability. (I mean it’s not perfect–it still follows the trope of “Asia” being primarily East Asia, with what could be a Southeast Asia analogue played largely as a joke and the Tibet stand-in presented as already dead and gone. But one story can’t do everything, and I can still enjoy it while seeing where it falls into common traps of thought.)

pinkrangerv:

kittenn1011:

pinkrangerv:

kittenn1011:

pinkrangerv:

kittenn1011:

pinkrangerv:

diversehighfantasy:

pinkrangerv:

diversehighfantasy:

“Kylo should be a hero the forgotten children can look up to” is honestly a vile thing to say when Finn exists as an actual hero.

His body language, actions, and the fact that this is fucking Star Wars indicate he has probably been brainwashed. So was Finn. Finn escaped. Some people can.

SOME PEOPLE CANNOT ESCAPE ABUSE, ESPECIALLY CHILDREN, AND THEY NEED TO SEE SOMEONE LIKE THEM EVENTUALLY GETTING OUT OR FREE.

Kylo becoming a hero is NOT going to negate Finn’s heroism. People do NOT just like Kylo because they’re racist against Finn, or they’re woobifying–Kylo’s storyline appeals to a set of people that Finn’s cannot, in a deep-set way. The kid who’s had a teacher call CPS and nothing happened, or the young adult who can’t get a job because they can’t leave the house or drive, or the teenager who doesn’t know how to fight back–they need to see their own story too.

You are missing the point.

Black children are systemically forgotten, systemically disadvantaged, and systemically abused. When people go on about how Kylo should be the hero to represent the forgotten children, they’re forgetting about Black children, they’re forgetting about Finn.

Finn was in an abusive situation too for his entire life. Why does him getting out somehow not count? Why would you think Kylo would have more impact on marginalized, abused kids? That makes no sense to me. ALL of your examples – CPS failure, can’t get a job, can’t fight back – apply to Black kids, and not a lot of people outside the Black community care. Nonblack kids, especially white kids, have many more resources and much more representation. It’s not like there are no damaged/sympathetic white characters out there.

I stand by it. Using marginalized, abused kids as a reason Kylo Ren needs to come out on top is vile. Not least of all because Finn’s story is much more uncommon and would have far more impact on marginalized kids when you consider that Black kids exist.

Could you try reading my post before shooting your mouth off? Like, at all? Because AS I SAID, Finn DOES represent SOME abuse survivors. Just not ALL. I don’t know why the fuck you think that means it ‘doesn’t count’ or ‘not a lot of people outside the Black community care about Black child abuse survivors’, because while I’m sure you have personal reasons to feel that way, Finn is the most celebrated character to come out of that movie, EVEN SURPASSING RAY WHO WAS THE LUKE ANALOGY.

Ben does not negate Finn. Finn does not negate Ben. Neither of them negate Ray. ALL THREE reach out to different survivors, and they are ALL important. I just don’t hold with shitting on one because, to be frank, he’s white.

There’s kind of a huge gaping hole in your argument here. As far as I can tell, you’re saying that redeeming Kylo, helping/having him escape, will represent kids in abusive situations who cannot escape, right? And those kids who cannot escape get to see a character who represents them escape?

You’ve failed to argue, however, why exactly Finn doesn’t represent exactly that. Because we see Finn stuck in an abusive situation that he hadn’t been able to escape as a child– how does he not represent children in an abusive situation who can’t escape? And Finn, even more, had to escape all on his own, with no outside help, which is exactly how kids in abusive situations who nobody is helping might see as someone like them getting themselves out??

On the other hand, we have Kylo– btw, you spelled both “Kylo” and “Rey” wrong– who people /are/ trying to save from his situation. His mother and father. How would abusive kids who feel nobody is helping them connect Kylo, with that, to themselves, above Finn?

Again, reading my post is a good thing.

Finn doesn’t work for the ones STILL STUCK because he is NOT still stuck. Because the movie STARTS with him not stuck. What’s onscreen MATTERS.

And i’m not saying Kylo because we don’t know that’s his name. We do know, because Star Wars has a history of doing it, that it may well NOT be his chosen name, and may be a slave name. So I’m going with the option that makes more sense, given that this is Reboot 2.0.

Edit: …Well, yes, I did spell Rey wrong. Apparently, I are typo. *facepalm*

The movie, in fact, does not start with him not being stuck. If I recall correctly, he is definitely a stuck Stormtrooper at the beginning and gets out shortly after. What was that about what happens onscreen mattering, hm? We saw Finn get out. We saw him suffering, we’ve been told he’s been suffering like that his whole damn life, and we see him take initiative and, at a great risk to him where others might’ve not seen a way out, took a risk to get out. Had to fight tooth and nail to physically escape. Thought his friend died in the attempt (Poe). And then had to continue fighting once he escaped as his abusers, the first order, tried to bring “him” back (they didn’t want him of course, specifically, that much, they wanted the plans which he accompanied, but the connection to him does exist), and then they stole his friend (Rey) and he went back to rescue her from his abusers. And after that, he was free. Then, and only then, was he free. We don’t see the years he spent under their thumb, but we did see him under their thumb, and we did see his entire struggle to escape through the entire movie. Finn is not “escaped” from the First Order until the end. If you can’t accept the end, then at least he’s not free until he, Rey, Han, and Chewie all reach the rebel outpost.

And if Finn being no longer stuck automatically means he can’t be connected to by (some) people who are “still stuck”, then guess what, any redemption for Kylo will do the same thing to his character, no? So, when Kylo “gets out” (which I don’t think he will because Kylo blatently doesn’t want to get out. Even if that was brainwashed into him to not want out, the fact remains he doesn’t want out), then the exact same argument could apply to him. That’s the logic flaw here.

Presuming Kylo ever gets out, any argument made to discount Finn as someone who specifically represents “people who cannot escape abuse” (as opposed to someone who represents people who’ve already escaped abuse) would automatically apply to him. Kylo, if redeemed, would not be any better representation than Finn– any people who can’t connect to Finn’s story (because, you’re right, not all survivors would see his story as theirs) specifically because he escapes would also lost their connection to Kylo if he too “escapes”– so then why “should” he have to be redeemed to be that representation that Finn already /is/? You won’t cover a greater ground for representation and represent “everyone” or even just “more people” because any reason to not connect to Finn that you’ve brought up also would apply to a redeemed Kylo.

Well, here’s a thought: Getting out looks dramatically different for everyone.

What you’re saying about Finn not escaping until the end is…really wrong. He gets physically out quickly–that’s the sort of story abuse survivors get a lot. Ben DOESN’T. Ben doesn’t get physically out AT ALL.

And you’re right! Right now, he DOESN’T want to get out! Because he’s a cult survivor, not a child soldier! They’re DIFFERENT. And getting out for Finn WAS getting out physically–his choices were his own after that. It will NOT be the same for Ben. He will have a lot of stuff going on that is in his head–he has to WANT to get out.

I’m not denying it’s not similar to Finn’s storyline. But it is a different one, at the end of the day.

And really, you KNOW representation matters. Why are you sitting here arguing Finn should be the only representation for two different kinds of abuse victims?

Yes, let’s represent our victims. Let’s represent our villains, too, hm?

Finn. Literally. Did. All. Of. The. Shit. In. Your. Tags.

If you’re willing to forgive him because he’s black and not willing to forgive Ben because he’s white, THAT IS KIND OF A FUCKING PROBLEM. I should not even have to explain that that’s not okay, even if it’s not systemic oppression. You are literally making him the villain because of his skin color. Stop it.

And, look. Please do not come back with ‘bbbbbut I never SAID that you can’t PROVE it!’ That is where you are coming from–the black guy is the hero, the white guy is the villain. I get it. I get why you want that. I wanted similar shit based on my own oppression. But that is fucking immoral and not okay. You do not get to shit all over people for liking a a character with the wrong skin color. You do not get to decide people only can identify with the ‘right’ skin color. That is not okay.

What the hell? @kittenn1011 ’s tags in the post you reblogged were about Brock Turner getting a light sentence for rape and about Kylo Ren participating in genocide. How did Finn do any of that shit? He explicitly walked AWAY from mass murder ordered by Kylo Ren. Finn isn’t forgiven because he’s Black and Kylo not forgiven because he’s white, Finn REFUSED TO COMMIT CRIMES WHILE KYLO HURT INNOCENT PEOPLE. That’s why he’s a villain, not because he’s white. I mean did you even watch this movie?