Luke wasn’t completely wrong to spare Kyle? What. Thanks to TLJ and Johnson, Luke Was A Dick is pretty much the only concrete reason offered by the ST movies as to why Kyle is the way that he is. There’s nothing else. Almost nobody reads the goddamn novels, Snoke abusing Kyle Ben is not a thing with general audience. Luke’s shouldering the whole blame (thank’s sfm, RJ).

jewishcomeradebot:

lj-writes:

It really should take only half a second of critical thinking to realize that Luke couldn’t have made Kylo evil–that Kylo was already consumed by it when Luke looked into his mind. Kylo then slaughtered Luke’s students and took his already-turned friends in what was clearly a premeditated attack. JJ had better make that clear in IX.

I think JJ will. Plus I can see a way he can make it reasonable that neither Luke nor Rey killed him without turning him good or, like Gollum, save the story, detracting from the heroes. (Yes I always hated the ending of LotR, it’s cheap imo.)

Anyway.

Here’s how: Mark likened the whole thing to the theoretical question, “if you could go back in time and kill baby Hitler, would you?”.

But to Jews that was always a nonsense question.

Why? Because it wouldn’t have made one lick of difference, WWII would still have happened, the Holocaust would still have happened. Because Hitler was only one guy, he alone caused NOTHING to happen. The forces that made the Nazis try to exterminate Jews and Romani people, with the applause of most of Europe and the rest of the world, was already moving. It would all have happened anyway. And with someone more competent than Hitler possibly have been much, much worse.

So why didn’t Luke kill Ben? Because he realized that it wouldn’t make a lick of difference to what was going to happen. Heck it’s not even sure that his school and the rest of the students would have survived even if he hadn’t done that lightsaber check next to his nephew. Because Kylo/Ben is just one man. Even if removed, he’d still have his hangers on that could act without him and it looked like was ready to.

And in the longer term, what then? Remove Kylo and what happens? The exact same damn thing. Because Snoke still exists, Hux still exists, Starkiller Base is already being build and will be completed, the whole of the First Order is already on the rise and the Republic will do nothing.

Kylo or no Kylo, it changes nothing, this goes far beyond just one man. Only difference is that Snoke might have found a different apprentice, possibly one who’s more competent and less self-absorbed and arrogant, and everything would then have been so much worse. The story, our story, could have been over before it even started.

And again in TLJ. Even if we take the nonsense reason that the novel supplies for Rey not killing Kylo on face value and JJ decides to go with that.

Again it wouldn’t make any difference. Only change is that someone else, possibly a more competent commander would take the reigns of the First Order. Hux might be a conservative and unimaginative by-the-book commander who’s very bad at dealing with unconventional tactics and innovative strategies, but at least he knows the book. Kylo on the other hand is a lets-antagonize-all-of-Europe-and-then-invade-Russia-in-winter style of commander.

Yes the Force still needs him, because his lack of competence gives the Resistance and the Light side a chance that would be snuffed out with a more competent guy at the helm.

People – and by people I mean goydje – forget that the Nazis were largely incompetent and that neo-Nazis are really no better. What made and makes them so terrifying isn’t that they’re competent, but that the could do what they did because the majority of people in Europe agreed wholeheartedly with their agenda. They only opposed it when they too became a target.

Which is really no different from what has been happening in a Galaxy Far Far Away. On the whole, no one gave a shit about the genocides and general abuses the First Order were committing as long as they themselves were not its target, a lot even supported it. And now everyone has to deal with that.

Am I the only one who liked the LotR climax 😂 Also omg the Hitler comparison! Kylo does remind me of him, especially the dramatization in the 2004 film Untergang. And that’s not a commentary on mental illness; Hitler’s evil was not caused by mental illness (link if anyone wants support for the obvious, some ableism at link). Rather, the behavioral similarities arise from their shared sense of entitlement and their fundamental dishonesty about the world.

You’re right, if Luke had killed Kylo someone else would have been Snoke’s apprentice, likely one of Kylo’s school buddies. And look, no one’s going to convince me Kylo was the sharpest knife in any drawer. I can easily believe, however, that he was the most powerful Force user and the most violent in action and temper. If his interactions with Hux are any indication, Kylo became the ringleader of their group by choking and intimidating the hell out of any dissent. I bet there is or was a far smarter Knight of Ren who was either forced to fall in line or was killed by Kylo. If Luke had killed Kylo that person would have been the Master of the Knights of Ren and a far more dangerous foe.

Worse, Luke would have been vilified as a murderer who killed his young nephew in his sleep while Kylo would have become a junior martyr alongside Vader. The aforementioned smarter Knight would have been savvy enough to effectively use the memory of the hated dead asshole.

If Rey had killed Kylo Ren, Hux would have laughed his ass off to find his job done for him. The FO would have gone away and regrouped, likely with Hux at their head, with Ren again a martyr before he could expose himself very publicly on Crait for the ridiculous flop he was. And Ren will continue to flub and make mistakes and throw embarrassing tantrums because, again, he is self-entitled and dishonest.

Kylo Ren is not a Dark Side villain

I’ve started to think the real conflict in the sequel trilogy might actually not be between the Light and Dark Sides of the Force. The former can be immoral and the latter can be moral, after all.

Pacifism in the face of injustice can be irresponsible cowardice, which is why people have criticized the “That’s how we win” line. Rationality in the face of others’ pain can be dismissive and callous, as we saw with Yoda toward Anakin.

On the other hand, violence to fight unjust violence is moral. That’s the entire foundation of the Rebellion and later Resistance. Anger and pain in the face of oppression, suffering with those who suffer, can be compassion.

No, I now think the real conflict in the sequel trilogy is between elitism and egalitarianism. Think about it. JJ has said that it’s very deliberate that Finn and Rey don’t have last names. We thought it was because they would get big reveals later on (or at least fandom, including me, thought that was true of Rey), but what if he meant something else entirely?

The third main hero in the new movies is Poe, who has a last name and known family but who was at best solidly midle class his whole life. In TLJ we got Rose, whose homeworld was destroyed by the First Order.

These heroes are arrayed against Kylo Ren, a son and nephew of famous heroes and a genetically powerful Force user, who had every advantage growing up and every reason to be the greatest force for good the galaxy had seen.

In a way, being told he is the ultimate good may be the very reason he went so very wrong. Kylo’s actor Adam Driver has said that Kylo has absolute conviction that he is right and that he is an elitist. What would that do to a person’s morality if he is told, implicitly or explicitly, that he can do no wrong by virtue of being a good guy and that he is a cut above everyone else?

Maybe this is why many people are still flummoxed by Kylo Ren’s character and insist that his motivations are lacking, that he is incomprehensible. Our template of the main antagonist in Star Wars is Darth Vader, who was indeed a Dark Side villain whose passion and fear ran amok, motivating him to murder and destruction. That’s why fans read abuse, brainwashing, or the loss of a loved one into Kylo Ren’s character, so we can fit him in the mold of the Dark Side.

But what if there is no Dark Side to be read into his character? What if there was no anger, fear, or loss that motivated him, at least not from legitimate loss or pain?

What if Kylo Ren’s brand of evil is far more mundane: Self-righteousness and arrogance?

In this frame, we can see why Rey misjudged him in The Last Jedi. Like the fandom, she thought Kylo Ren was driven by suffering and could be reached by a hand of friendship and understanding, like Luke had reached Vader. She learned to her surprise that Kylo didn’t hate the father he murdered, which should have made her rethink her approach. Luke himself who knew both Kylo and Vader warned her that she was dangerously misreading the situation.

And when Rey forgave Kylo Ren the pain he caused her, believed in him, stood by his side, and fought by his side–it had no effect on him at all. He had plenty of people believe in him, love him, and even forgive him after he did the unforgivable. That wasn’t what was wrong with him. It wasn’t the Dark Side that made him evil.

Rather he believed he was he ultimate good, that destroying the galaxy and remaking it in his image was the right thing to do. He thought Rey was nothing and had no place in the story because of her unremarkable birth, and only through him could she find meaning and worth.

The real evil in the sequel trilogy isn’t lashing out in hatred and suffering. It’s the belief that you are better than everyone else and are entitled to use others as a means to your ends. Such a belief may lead to suffering, such as rage at the fact that people aren’t treating you with the deference you believe you are due, but in that case you are not evil because you suffer; rather, your suffering stems from your evil belief.

This is the kind of evil the heroes of the sequel trilogy are standing against, and that their backgrounds and choices refute. Finn was kidnapped and enslaved to be a means for the glory of his leaders like Kylo, but he refused the role. He asserted his own individuality and self-worth and wanted to run far away from the First Order before he decided to fight with the Resistance.

Rey grew up in deprivation but never gave up hope, always longing for people who would love her and with whom she had a place. She projected her own pain onto Kylo, and that very nearly became her downfall.

Poe, like Kylo, was raised as one of the “good guys.” Unlike Kylo, however, he always remained open to questioning himself and whether he was doing the right thing. When he saw evidence of First Order activity as a Republic pilot, he didn’t dismiss it because he thought the Republic was always right. Instead he changed his entire life, leaving behind stability and certainty, to do the right thing. When a Stormtrooper offered to rescue him, Poe believed him and became his friend. In TLJ, though the execution was somewhat muddled, he again showed the humility to question his assumptions and admit when others were right.

Rose, like Finn, was one of the people Kylo deemed inferior and expendable. Like Finn she rejected that to fight back, and like Rey she knows she is more than her birth. Like Poe she showed a willingness to admit when she was wrong and to change her views.

These are the democratic and egalitarian heroes who will fight Kylo Ren despite the odds, who respond to his terrifyingly egocentric worldview with a resounding “no.” No, we are not fodder for your ambitions. No, we do not accept that we are less. No, the greater good is not in some Übermensch because good and evil lie in choices, not individuals or sides. No, we will not bow to you. No, we will not let you continue on this path of destruction. No. No. NO.

Kylo Ren is not evil because he is on the Dark Side of the Force, but because he believes himself to be the absolute good and the ultimate worth due to who he is. It is why he is a villain for our times and why he must be defeated by our heroes.

aomoviegeek:

disturbanceinthefrost:

OMG…I just saw a screen grab of twitter thread that said Kyle saying “join me…please” to Rey is the ST’s equivalent to Han’s “I know” from ESB and 

Like…how HOW can you compare the “I love you/I know” moment with a scene where Kylo yells at Rey, emotionally manipulates her and tells her she’s nothing??

I mean hello THIS:

Is the scene from the OT that Rey and Kylo scene is actually paralleling. 

image

It really is time for the Jedi to end

Morality, Trust, and the Force–toward a new model of Force instruction

What went so fatally wrong with the Jedi Order?

It’s a recurring and fundamental question. Through the prequel, original, and now sequel trilogies we’ve watched the Jedi Order fall, rise, and then fall again. Unless they can end this cycle the end of Episode IX won’t be an end, but rather a prelude to a new tragedy.

I believe the old Jedi Order’s reliance on inborn Force power became warped into blood worship in Luke’s new Jedi Order, and Kylo Ren was a product of this repugnant and ahistorical belief. To overcome the mistakes of the old and new Orders, a new model of Force instruction must arise: One that does not rely on inborn talent and certainly not on the nonsensical idea that a lineage confers a special destiny or rights. Rather the new model must recognize and nurture the Force powers inherent in everyone, and instruction itself should be a horizontal process where the students teach each other.

Below I will lay out these ideas in more detail. First I will explain the progression from the old Jedi Order to the new one, and how discontinuity in history led to Luke’s mistakes and Kylo Ren. Then I will lay out the new model that I believe must take the Jedi’s place in order to prevent new Kylo Rens from arising, or at least minimize their damage, while also avoiding the mistakes of the old Jedi Order.

The Old Jedi Order: Meritocracy and forced obedience

We know quite a few details about the workings of the old Jedi Order prior to Order 66 and the fall of the Order. When it comes to selecting and instructing students for the way of the Jedi, they followed two main tenets:

First, select naturally strong Force users.

Second, induct them young before they form lasting attachments with family.

Jedi in the old Order, in other words, were skewed toward individuals with strong and inborn Force powers that manifested young. In order to ensure that these unusually talented people would not go astray and turn to the Dark Side of the Force, they were taken young enough that the attachments they would have formed with their families could be transferred to the Jedi Order–more specifically, the padawan’s own Master–the better to make them obedient to the Order’s will. The First Order would later on explicitly copy the second part of this model for their Stormtrooper program.

The most obvious failure of this model is the case of Anakin Skywalker, who failed the secod test and ordinarily would not have been made a Jedi. Some might even use his case to argue that the fault was not in the Jedi model itself but in the deviation from it.

The failure of the Jedi, however, was much more profound than the individual case of Anakin. The problems of the Republic and the Jedi preceded Anakin and were bigger than him, and the Jedi were complacent in these problems including the militarization of the Republic and the decline of its democracy. They did nothing about the plight of enslaved persons like Shmi, and they actively led the armies of clones created and enslaved for war.

The Jedi Order model worked for its intended purposes. In fact, it worked too well. It had become an entire order of powerful beings who were discouraged from independent thinking, who participated in and amplified the injustices of the Republic. Palpatine and Anakin may have ended the Republic and the Jedi, but they were able to do so because of the deeper failures of both institutions.

The New Jedi Order: Blood supremacy without safeguards

Though we do not have many details about Luke’s new Jedi order, we probably saw the beginning of his instruction methods with Obi-Wan Kenobi’s and Yoda’s teaching of Luke himself. The second part of the old Jedi Order’s selection model was no longer workable at this point, with the tattered remainders of the Jedi being in no shape to take in children and raise them to be Jedi.

Both Kenobi and Yoda were products of the old Jedi Order, however, and they still hung on to the first part of the model: the selection of Jedi for powerful inborn talent. Because they were unable to roam the galaxy looking for child talent, hunted as they were, they used the novel method of relying on a known Force bloodline–Anakin’s own children. They pinned their hopes on Luke and, should he fail, Leia, because they were out of options and certainly not because it was the traditional Jedi way. Out of these circumstances was born a pernicious belief that poisoned the future of the Jedi and brought about its destruction yet again.

Though we do not know much about Luke’s own Jedi school, Luke is likely to have applied the teachings he received to his own students. He probably did not put much stock in starting Force instruction young, having started training as an adult himself. One thing he did seem to have believed in, however, was the power of the Skywalker bloodline, in a jarring line from The Last Jedi:

My nephew with that mighty Skywalker blood. In my hubris, I thought I could train him; I could pass on my strengths.

As many have pointed out, this is a blatantly ahistorical vision of both the Jedi Order and the Skywalker line. The Jedi Order never selected candidates by lineage, but by individual merit. There was no mighty Skywalker blood, a family whose matriarch was an enslaved woman who lived and died on a backwater planet.

Is it so implausible that Luke himself at this time believed this manufactured myth, though? Kenobi and Yoda had died before they could teach him the full history of the old Order, and even if they spoke to him afterward I doubt they were completely candid about its failures. The fable about Skywalker blood was Luke’s own story of involvement with the Jedi Order, and one of the few things he knew–or thought he knew–about the Jedi. Kenobi and Yoda’s desperate plan may well have turned into a Skywalker myth in a universe where history itself was irreparably broken from massacres, terrors, purges, and outright rewritten pasts. The Empire’s own fixation with supermen and heritage may have been an influence as well, since Luke after all was a good citizen of the Empire for twenty years before he turned rebel.

So not only was the old Jedi’s belief in inborn meritocracy continued in Luke’s Jedi order, it took on an unbelievably more sinister form with the added layer of the Skywalker myth and all it implied–that certain bloodlines and people from those lines were special and were destined to save the universe. The proof was in recent history, after all, with three people who were born into or married into that line having freshly saved the galaxy.

Now imagine what this ahistorical yet powerful belief had on the mind of young Ben Organa-Solo. Imagine what it’s like to believe that you are born to a holy line and are destined to save the universe. All it would take is a little bit of entitlement, a little bit of arrogance, a little bit of narcissism. Combine these with your considerable personal power and the privilege you enjoyed your entire life, a welcome word whispered in your ear about how special and exalted you are, and there would be nothing to stop you from believing that you are, indeed, destined to be a god. Your power and desires are paramount values and the lives of lesser beings are nothing but kindling for your ambitions. There will always be some conflict because your parents and their friends loved you and taught you better than this, but these petty concerns of morality are fetters meant for lesser beings, bonds that you must break on your triumphant way toward your manifest destiny.

The stirrings of Kylo Ren were growing in the belly of Luke’s new Jedi Order, spreading to other students in what would become the core of the future Knights of Ren. Without even the weak and imperfect bonds that tied the Jedi to the old Order, there was nothing to restrain this new faction that would bring a new whirlwind of destruction. Luke was very right to see that the practice of taking children from their families was morally repugnant and ultimately futile. The problem was that he had failed to recognize the real need that had given rise to that practice, and had come up with nothing to take its place. His imperfect instruction in the ways of the Jedi, and more importantly its failures, had taken its toll and brought about tragedy and new war.

Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.
It’s the only way to become what you’re meant to be.

Kylo Ren wasn’t entirely wrong when he said all the old edifices had to be destroyed. He is completely wrong about both the means and the endpoint, of course. The way to overcome the mistakes of the past is not to build an empire on a mountain of corpses, which is just a repeat of yet more crimes from the past. Rather, the way forward is to create something new that refutes the wrong beliefs that led to these mistakes in the first place.

So what is the way forward? If the Jedi must end, what should take its place?

A new model of Force instruction: Morality and democracy

What really needs to end is not the idea of Force instruction per se, but the whole idea of inborn Force meritocracy. Why not flip the whole idea of the Jedi on its head? They don’t have to be people with some special inborn talent. They most certainly don’t have to be from some special bloodline, which as explained above was never true of the Jedi in the first place.

If the Force is truly in everyone, there’s no need to select people for their power in the Force and then either try to restrain them (the old Jedi) or fail to restrain them (Luke’s new Jedi). Why not take on people who don’t need restraint in the first place, who don’t need to be treated like bombs about to go off?

Why not, in other words, take on already trustworthy people regardless of their level of Force powers, and instruct them in the ways of the Force?

The belief that only a select few people with special inborn powers can handle the Force has failed miserably and multiple times. It is irrational to keep trying the same thing when it plainly doesn’t work and has never worked.

What’s more, the method of Force instruction doesn’t have to be a vertical master-apprentice relationship, and there is no one left to be a Jedi Master anyway with most of them dead and Kylo Ren and the Knights of Ren emphatically disinvited from all study sessions. Rather than Jedi academies the new model of Force instruction would be more like Jedi study groups, out of sheer necessity if nothing else. Obedience to the Order will no longer be a virtue. The new Jedi will have to seek a way forward together, seeking the meaning of the Force and the ethics of using it.

Yes, the individual users might not be as powerful as those of the old Jedi and Luke’s new Jedi. Classically powerful Force users like Rey would still have a place and play a major role, though. What’s more, there would be many more Force users of more diverse powers to meet potential evil Force users and other threats. If @themandalorianwolf‘s theory that Finn is a wound in the Force who awakens other Force users is true (link), more characters could awaken to their Force powers.

In sum, the Jedi model of meritocracy has been an unqualified failure and it is well past time to try something new. A new, democratic model of Force instruction would be a way to move toward a new future instead of repeating the mistakes of the past.

Luke’s new Jedi Temple in Cloud City. It’s a lot more humble than the Academy from the Prequels, as it focuses on spiritual enlightenment rather than militaristic deployment. Though grass doesn’t usually grow this much on Bespin, a Force experiment created rather lively soil. Lando bought the building next door, so the two can meet for lunch. (Moth)

Browsing through Wookieepedia and found out Depa Billaba has a sister… with a completely different last name? Jedi aren’t allowed to get married, why do they have different names if they’re sisters? This is canon carried over from Legends.

darthlenaplant:

themandalorianwolf:

lj-writes:

I know of RL siblings with different last names, due to remarriages, blended families and so on. If Depa’s sister is not a Jedi, she could have changed her last name on marriage. And that’s to say nothing of what kind of naming customs different civilizations might have. Mace Windu for instance had a clan brother named Kar Vastor who does not seem to be his biological brother.

Jedi were allowed to get married under certain circumstances.

Ki-Adi-Mundi had 4 wives and 7 children due to the low birth rate of his species.

And if we’re talking Old Republic, Basttila married Revan and had a daughter with him.

And her daughter, Satele, would go on to have a son of her own.

There are special cases where Jedi married, just most of the time it was under special circumstances where the council approved.

Also, adoption? I mean, Luke Skywalker kept his name as it was, but nobody called his sister “Leia Skywalker”, rather than Organa, which was the name of her adoptive parents? (Dang, now I’m laughing at the concept of “Luke Lars”)

That too! Looking back I can’t believe Luke lived so openly right on Tatooine under the name Skywalker lol