selfhate-me:

lj-writes:

silveritemine:

notbythehairofmyfinnyfinnfinn:

nancykerrigan:

protectblkwomen:

futureblackwakandan:

“Tell him I’m trying to redeem the person who slashed him across the back and put him into a coma. Can you tell him that for me please? Thanks.”

Someone finally said it.

Rian Johnson is a fucking hack.

y’all forgot luke redeemed vader who tortured leia, had a hand in blowing up her home planet, killed obi wan and froze han in carbonite?

Do you think that Finn wouldn’t be at least slightly sympathetic if he knew what was actually happening to Kylo Ren, and what had happened to him in the past? You think Finn wouldn’t be against brainwashing and abuse, regardless of the target?

Awww lookit that, Finn is worthless unless he forgives and props up the man who bullied and would have killed him!

Abuse? Not an excuse even if it happened. Brainwashing? Total bullshit. Not only did Kylo disobey Snoke’s order in TFA, he murderized the pickled prune in TLJ. And still wanted to murder his mother and all the Resistance survivors.

Has Finn had any interaction, cannonicaly, other than the fight on star killer base? Honest question. Because I don’t think Kylo has ever bullied Finn. I feel like that’s all on Phasma. That’s not to say that Kylo didn’t try and kill Finn.

Also I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Rey trying to redeem someone inspite of their flaws, pretty fucking big ones I’ll admit. I think it shows her as an inherently good person who believes that there is good in everyone.

Was this question directed at me? Because as far as I can tell you
didn’t reblog from me, meaning I couldn’t have seen it in my notes even
if notes in general weren’t acting up.

Anyway, please see the third and fourth gifs in a post I did about Finn and Kylo (link). Kylo Ren very directly looked at Finn, then as he turned to go unfroze the blaster beam from Poe’s rifle so it struck a pole close to where Finn was standing, showering him with sparks and startling him. (In the original Finn jumped even harder than in the gif I made–I cut out some frames to make the gif smaller.) So yeah, casual, cruel bullying.

War crimes are not a character flaw, jsyk. What was Finn supposed to do if asked to stay in the same organization as the person who nearly killed him, who is known to have been treacherous and murderous before? What was Poe supposed to do if asked to work with someone who murdered a village before his eyes and tortured him so painfully that his screams shattered the recording droid’s sensory capsules (link)? I understand that Rey meant well, but it wasn’t a well-thought-out decision at all.

How Finn and Rey saved each other again in The Last Jedi

Or: How TLJ is RotS averted far more than RotJ subverted

At
the end of The Force Awakens we watched Finn and Rey both stand up to Kylo Ren for each other, effectively saving each other and
themselves from the Master of the Knights of Ren. When Rey was knocked
out Finn took up the lightsaber; when Finn was injured, Rey woke up to
his screams and snatched the lightsaber from Ren to defend Finn and
herself.

This dynamic takes place again in the climax of The
Last Jedi, except Finn and Rey were not in the same scene like they were
during the dueling sequence in TFA. in TLJ, though kept apart until
their heartwarming reunion hug, they saved each other through the
choices they made and what each meant to the other.

The A-plot of
TLJ has been called a subversion of Return of the Jedi, for good reason.
Rey attempts to bring Kylo Ren back to the light in scenes that are
some very direct callbacks to Luke and Vader in RotJ, except
Kylo Ren, unlike Vader, refuses Rey’s plea and rises to the position of Big Bad
instead.

TLJ is only primarily a subversion of RotJ if you focus
on Rey and Ren, however. If you broaden the focus to Rey, Finn, and Ren
and the dynamics between them, it is the tragic ending of Revenge of the
Sith averted.

In fact, seeing TLJ as RotS averted subverts
the very idea that Kylo Ren was ever Anakin to Rey’s Luke: Rather he is
Palpatine, and Finn and Rey parallel Padmé and Anakin respectively, except
they each avoided destruction and enslavement. Rey, in no small part due
to Ren’s manipulation, saw him as a tortured soul who could be
redeemed. In fact he was a master manipulator who was drawing her
in for his own gain.

Rey’s lack of genre savviness, based on
a mistaken character reading, almost led to her meeting Anakin’s fate
as the subservient apprentice to an abusive master. Instead, she was
able to avoid it because of the love between her and Finn. In turn, Finn
and the Resistance avoided destruction in part because Rey did not turn
on Finn as Kylo wanted and as Anakin turned on Padmé.

The similarities between Finn/Padmé and
Rey/Anakin, and also their story together, have been commented on enough
times, recently in posts like @jewishcomeradebot’s (link with my addition).
What I have not seen discussed is the similarities of their dynamics to
Kylo Ren/Palpatine, the man who manipulated a powerful younger Force
user under the guise of friendship only to use them to grasp l power,
and tried to take his rival out of the picture for good.

Put
simply, Finn is Ren’s opponent and rival, much as Padmé was Palpatine’s
opponent and rival. They share a common background and know each other, have opposing convictions and goals, and work against each other. Rey on the other
hand, is someone Ren wants to turn and make his apprentice, much as
Anakin was targeted and groomed by Palpatine. The tragedy in RotS was that Palpatine achieved his goal
of defeating Padmé and making Anakin his apprentice. The happy ending in
TLJ is that Finn and Rey escaped that fate.

How did Finn and
Rey avoid the tragedy that was Padmé and Anakin’s story? On Rey’s side,
it was because she knew Kylo Ren was full of bantha poo-doo (and also
was poo-doo himself) when he told her she was nothing except to him. She
had incontrovertible proof that this wasn’t true, no matter how he
might twist the knife in the wound of her abandonment, no matter how
alone and desperate she felt by his design.

She knew because
Finn had come back for her to Starkiller Base. He had returned to the
very heart of the nightmares that he was ready to flee to the ends of
the galaxy to run from, and he very nearly paid the ultimate price for
it–for her. She knew that Han had thought of her as a daughter and that Leia
and the Resistance loved her. The love she had been filled up with
since she left Jakku, with Finn and his sacrifice for her at the center of it all,
anchored her and prevented her from being swept onto the shoals of Kylo
Ren’s deceit.

On Finn’s side,
he avoided total defeat and death in large part due to Rose’s and later
Luke’s intervention, but even their help would have meant little in the long run if Rey had turned against him and the Resistance as Anakin had turned against Padmé and all
she stood for. Where Anakin and later Kylo himself had committed mass
murders at their masters’ behest, Rey refused to stand by and let her
friends be slaughtered and joined forces with them. Where Palpatine had
triumphed by turning Anakin against Padmé, Rey was steadfast in her
loyalty to Finn, and Kylo failed to tear their bond apart. Their love
proved stronger than his violence in TFA and his wiles in TLJ.

The
culmination of TLJ, then, repeats that of TFA with Finn and Rey saving
each other through the strength of their love. The duels in TFA were
just between Finn, Rey, and Kylo with a personal, even claustrophobic
feel. Only Finn’s life and Rey’s freedom were in suspense since the
destruction of Starkiller Base was already imminent. In TLJ the stakes
are even larger, with more people involved and the future of the
Resistance–and by extension, the galaxy–in the balance.

Incidentally,
seeing TLJ as RotS averted and Ren as a so-far unsuccessful Palpatine
means there is no need for Ren to have an understandable motivation. As @jewishcomeradebot has pointed out (link),
Vader’s motivation for falling to the Dark Side is completely opaque in
the OT. Luke, the actual protagonist, had no reason to know or care
about Vader’s reasons. I would like to add that the PT explored Anakin’s
internal life, but that was because Anakin was the protagonist of that
series. Kylo Ren is not a protagonist, he has been and remains the main
antagonist. The motivation behind his fall is irrelevant to Finn and
Rey. It may be that there is no reason other than his belief that he is
superior to others and is entitled to power, much like Palpatine.

Where
does Finn and Rey’s story go from here? With the pretension of TLJ
being the new RotJ dispensed with and the tragedy of RotS avoided for
the moment, SW is on entirely new ground. The ends of both preceding
trilogies were teased but subverted or averted. There is no precedent to
guide us now.

One constant in the ST, however, is the strength of
the bond between Finn and Rey. Both the ST movies so far ended with
that bond both reaffirmed and acting as a powerful force (maybe even
Force) for good in the lives of our protagonists and the ongoing war. To
carry this motif forward Finn and Rey’s love could be tested even more,
with still larger stakes–the outcome of the entire war.

On Rey’s
side, one interesting dilemma would be whether she can accept the risk
of losing Finn in order to honor his conviction. This was a test that
Anakin had failed in regard to Padmé, to both their destruction. Rather
than stand with Padmé Anakin turned against everything she believed in,
and the desire to control her to avoid losing her overwhelmed his love for her. We know that
Rey, like Anakin, wanted nothing more than a sense of belonging and
attachment and she found that with Finn. Now that Finn, like Padmé
before him, found a cause bigger than the two of them, can Rey honor
that cause even if it might mean she cannot be with the only person who came
back for her? What is love? is it
holding on to the beloved no matter what? Or does it lie in accepting
change if it may come, and accepting the beloved’s free will even if it means parting with them?

On Finn’s side, his story has been about freedom and the
ever-expanding awareness that he cannot be free by himself. From the first he needed another person, Poe, to escape the First Order. After losing Poe he sought freedom for himself as he continued running, unexpectedly picking up a comrade that he became more and more attached to. This attachment grew to the extent that it overrode his original goal–he
found that his individual freedom meant little if Rey was suffering. Then, in
late TFA and TLJ, the Resistance and a larger awareness of the galaxy were enfolded
in his circle. In the next movie the galaxy itself, including possibly the Stormtroopers in forced servitude, is likely to be included
in his fight.

With his circle of moral obligation expanding so much, can Finn remember to think about himself and his closest relationships? This was something actively discouraged in him in the First Order as selfish and inconsequential, and after his arc in TLJ his earlier conditioning may lead to his falling into the same habit of self-effacement, though for an opposing cause. Is it selfish to think of his beloved when the universe is at stake? Can he bring himself to think he deserves to love and to be loved? Does true freedom exclude considerations of love, or is freedom only complete with love? Rose gave one answer at the end of TLJ, that freedom can only be won through love, and certainly Rey avoiding servitude through love is a case for that assertion as well. This conclusion is likely to be tested, though, as the fight intensifies and the demands of the war grow harsher.

Where Rey’s continuing story seems to be about the nature of love with implications for freedom, Finn’s appears to be about the nature of freedom with implications for love. Resolving this continuing arc will hopefully lead to a satisfactory conclusion of the sequel trilogy and the story of Finn and Rey.

(For @finnreyfridays )

jewishcomeradebot:

lj-writes:

jewishcomeradebot:

lj-writes:

jewishcomeradebot:

All that fracas about my Finnrey meta has kinda made me want to write one about how Rey’s arc in TFA and TLJ is about growing up and letting go of childish things, her longing for her family and her belief that they cared about her and step into the adult world of responsibilities. But that it’s still emotionally satisfying because it does give her what she originally wanted, someone who loves her and comes back for her in Finn. It’s just not in the way she originally thought it would be.

And that when she meets Finn again at the end of TLJ it’s no longer as the child who seeks to run off and have her fairy tale happy ending without consequences or responsibilities, but as a young woman with commitments and responsibilities of her own.

People will point to her insistence that they see the BB-8 mission through in TFA as proof that she was already responsible and a grownup–but that wasn’t what was going on. She was bound by her desire to go back to Jakku, not commitment to the Resistance’s cause. She was looking to be her parents’ child again, not a grownup responsible for others. This is completely understandable and sympathetic because she had her childhood ripped from her and never got to be protected and cherished the way children should be. It’s very hard to grow up when you weren’t able to be a child first, and Rey’s story in many ways is about that difficult journey.

I never got that argument. When Rey runs off from Maz’s castle in TFA BB-8 follows her and corners her when she stops. 

Rey: What are you doing?

BB-8: *clearly wants to know what she’s up to*

Rey: You have to go back.

BB-8: *asks something*

Rey: I’m leaving

BB-8: *wants to come with her*

Rey: You can’t. You have to go back, you’re too important.

This doesn’t sound like someone who’s prepared to invest in the Resistance and who’s already ditched the idea of going back to Jakku. She’s at this point, which comes after the Force back and after Finn has left too, literally saying to BB-8 that she’s going back and not to the Resistance.

She was willing to take the droid to the Resistance, with Finn. I think that’s the crucial point for her. He was the first person who showed any kind of concern for her, but now he’s gone and with him her reason for staying and moving on with the mission.

And notice she only gave “we have to complete the mission” as a reason when she still thought Finn was a Resistance fighter. She thought invoking the Resistance’s mission would get him to stay because that’s what he was committed to do. Once he revealed he wasn’t Resistance she no longer brought up the mission because it no longer mattered to her, as you point out. This wasn’t irresponsible or heartless of her; thanks to her efforts, BB-8 already had people to take him back to the Resistace. Now that she had gotten BB to this point it wasn’t her concern anymore, Finn was. And with Finn lost to her she was going to go back to her hopeless waiting, the only chance she had at being loved and cared for again. And then Kylo Ren appeared, the dark Cupid that brought them back together

Also lmao this means Finnrey as a romance, unlike Reylow, passes the “Twilight test,” excerpted by @elaine-spades (link): the female protagonist wants something for herself, is proactive about getting it, and succeeds or fails as a result. The poster in the excerpt even says helping Finn would have been a valid motivation for Rey, but RJ had to be too clever by half and make it obscure as hell. I don’t blame the audience for not getting it, another case of “color-blind” writing not working out as @diversehighfantasy has discussed in Screw the Slow Burn (link).

Actually what she says after Maz says that the two pirats can get Finn to the Outer Rim if that’s where he wants to go and Finn for the first time says “Rey, come with me” is,

“What about BB-8. We have to get him back to your base.” (Emphasis mine.)

Then when Finn goes to the pirates and Rey confronts him:

Rey: “What are you doing?”

then

“You can’t go. I won’t let you.”

Also earlier when Han after they escape the Guavian Death Gang and Kanji Klub asks them, “Fugitives eh?” Rey replies:

“The First Order wants the map. Finn is with the Resistance, I’m just a scavenger.”

Rey constantly separates herself from the mission. It isn’t hers, she’s just kinda along for the ride because she got dragged into it and well, Finn is really kinda cute and he’s the only person who’s shown concern and affection for her.

Not only does she separate herself from the mission, constantly pointing out that it is Finn’s mission not hers, her words to Finn just before his confession makes it pretty clear that for her it is not about the mission as such, it’s about him.

You can’t leave. I won’t let you.

Sorry, those are not the words of someone who’s committed to a mission. It’s about her – Rey – who can’t bear to see another person she’s begun to love leave her behind.

Yup, while Rey was excited at the idea of the Resistance/Luke etc. that was a diversion for her and a kindness to BB, not her main business which was to survive and wait for her parents. She might have been forced to leave under fire but the plan was always to go back.

I also think that was the reason she wouldn’t leave with Finn. While she was strongly drawn to him, he hadn’t yet proven to be the one who would come back for her no matter what. I think more than anything, at their parting on Takodana, she wanted time; time to figure out what their relationship was as this was very new to both of them after all; time to talk about what they each wanted; time maybe even to convince her to come back to Jakku with her? (Though like, he wasn’t too excited about that obviously.) But she wouldn’t leave with him, not right then, because she couldn’t be sure she was ready to leave her chance at family behind for a man she had just met.

I believe all this changed on Starkiller Base when Chewie, the universe’s biggest Finnrey shipper in all senses, told her it was Finn’s idea to come back for her. She had seen how afraid Finn was of the First Order, and now she knew it was for a damned good reason. But he still came back for her.

This was the moment the equation changed and Jakku dropped out of the picture, to be replaced by Finn as her chance at knowing the kind of love and safety she had craved all her life. That, I believe, was what drove her throughout TLJ. The First Order is a threat to everyone, but it and Kylo Ren have a particular hatred of Finn because he represents an existential threat to them. (Random thought: Is the main FO fleet so irrationally and foolishly fixated on eradicating the tiny Resistance in part because they know the Resistance is protecting Finn? Was that one reason Rose was so angry at him for trying to leave, and couldn’t seem to let go of a simmering resentment at him almost to the end of the movie?) With the FO still out there Rey and Finn would not be safe no matter where they went. She was trying to protect Finn and her future together with him.

gretahs:

okay but the idea that finn and rey meet each other and immediately settle on a system of respect is revolutionary because all we ever get is boy meets girl and boy acts like a dick/girl hates boy and yet somehow of course by the end of the movie they’re together (i’m looking at you, jurassic world)

and this idea of what makes a “””good couple””” in media is so toxic because it perpetrates this idea that if two people hate each other or are assholes to each other for most of their time together then somehow they’re going to get together and it’s gonna be peachy

and in force awakens i was so ready for that to happen all over again BUT NO

instead we get two people who look out for each other in ways that neither of them have ever really experienced before and there’s just no forced antagonism between them. there’s drama, sure, but there’s also honesty and loyalty and giant space squid monsters

like holy guacamole what a way to kick off a trilogy

The fact that people completely sleep on the Finn and Rey dynamic and fixate on The Last Jedi as some kind of feminist victory is so wild to me.

I love FinnRey.

pantyfire:

I love the way they were both trying to do the right thing when they first meet: Finn ‘saving’ Rey and Rey helping BB8 find out why Finn had Poe’s jacket.

I love how both of them were immediately intrigued with each other.

image

I love how within their short moments of meeting each other they decided to help and protect each other.

I love their teamwork on the Millennium Falcon and how excited they were that the other did so well. 

image

I love that their very Han/Leia dynamic while fixing the Falcon is fun and light-hearted.

image

I love that they’re not afraid to hold on to each other and grab each other.

image

I love that when Finn gets caught by the rathtar Rey runs after him to save him and he calls to her for help.

I love how just Han knows Finn is lying about who he is and Finn realizes he should come clean.

I love that Finn wants to run and take Rey with him and I love that even though Rey is loyal to BB8 she never says no. 

image

I love how Rey doesn’t want to let Finn leave and tries to stop him.

I love how Rey doesn’t care that Finn is a former Storm trooper when he confesses and only wants him to stay with her. 

image

I love how Finn looks back at Rey as he’s leaving, already regretting his choice.

I love how Finn sees the First Order’s attack on the Hosnian Prime being destroyed and runs back to find Rey. 

I love how devastated Finn is after Rey is captured.

image

I love how his only objective in the Resistance is to find Rey and get her back by any means necessary, even when Poe and Leia are only focused on the First Order’s weapon.

I love how Finn doesn’t care about the bigger plan to save galaxies and just wants to get Rey from the First Order’s base.

I love how Finn is ready to go in boldly into the base and draw fire from the troopers just to find her.

I love how Finn asks her if she was hurt and I love Rey’s face when she finds out it was his idea to come find her.

I love their hug and how they cling to each other and almost refused to let go until they had to.

I love how Han tells them to hug later.

I love how Finn gives Rey his jacket when they’re outside in the snow.

I love how when Rey sees Kylo coming after them she grabs Finn and drags him away into the woods.

I love when Kylo throws Rey into the trees, FInn drops his weapon and runs to her, cradling her gently.

image

I love how Finn faces Kylo in his fury that he hurt Rey, knowing he’s not as skilled and runs at him.

I love that it’s Finn’s scream that wakes Rey after she gets hurt, prompting her to force pull Luke’s lightsaber. 

I love that after her battle with Kylo, Rey runs to Finn, devastated that he’s hurt.

I love how Rey lingers with Finn and kisses him goodbye for a moment before she leaves.

image

And most of all I love the potential for Finn and Rey to develop over the course of the series.

Oh yeah I love FinnRey.

(1/2) Hi! Regarding that analysis you reblogged about the deux ex machina in Avatar: from a writing perspective, I still don’t understand what was supposed to be the conflict in that last scene in The Guru. I think the majority of viewers (myself included) thought that Aang would have to let go of his love for Katara in order to unlock his chakra, and this sacrifice was supposed to be the source of all the tension in that moment. But in the end that sacrifice wasn’t actually made?

loopy777:

lj-writes:

loopy777:

(2/2) Aang still held onto his love for Katara and they ended up
together. I’ve seen some people say that unlocking your seventh chakra
doesn’t actually mean letting go of your loved ones and stuff, that in
Aang’s case it’d mean not to prioritize his attachments over the world,
but if that’s true then a) you may call it a sacrifice, but considering
it didn’t affect Aang’s relationship with Katara at all, it certainly
doesn’t feel like one b) why did Pathik word things so poorly?

(3/3) He pretty much said “Forget about the person you love”. The more
analyses I read about that last scene in The Guru, the more contrived it
feels to me. What are your thoughts? P.S.: Just to clarify (‘cause I
was called an “Aang hater” when discussing this very same topic a few
weeks ago): I love Aang, as in, he might very well be my favourite
fictional character ever. I just want to get a better understanding of
what the writers were going for in the Book 2 finale. 

Well, even though I had a reputation (and still might, for all I know) of holding the original AtLA cartoon up on a pedestal as perfect, I think the writing around this little subplot was actually pretty bad. There’s a lot going on in the finale to Book Earth, so it’s easy to miss the nuances of Aang’s “detachment” subplot. I was always under the impression that this specific subplot is resolved at the end of Book Earth, and wouldn’t continue into Book Fire (as it turned out no to), but I’ll admit that the path to that conclusion is very shaky.

And, on top of that, of the three characters who weigh in on the subject (the Guru, Aang, and Iroh) at least one of them is completely mistaken about the subject, and the cartoon doesn’t give us any clues as to who!

But let’s see if I can offer enough of an explanation to back up my reblog.

더 보기

I think you’ve got it right, attachment =/= love. There’s also Aang’s personal history to consider: He was a young Airbender who was not deeply into his studies before his education was curtailed, and even beforehand the spiritual side of his training may have suffered from receiving Avatar training so intensively at a young age, which could have been another reason for his mentor’s unhappiness at Aang’s regimen. The guru may have assumed a higher level of knowledge than Aang actually had, thinking Aang was using the terms correctly, resulting in a misunderstanding.

I agree the whole arc was not a model of clarity, especially since Aang’s misunderstanding was a common one for the audience and should have been cleared up. This confusion may have contributed to some fans’ dissatisfaction with/misunderstanding of Aang’s arc and his romance with Katara.

Also are you finally admitting Yoda was full of crud

Yup, the Guru is shown as disappointed to find out that Aang doesn’t even know what a chakra is, and since Pathik is familiar with the Air Nomads, he clearly expected it to be part of Aang’s education.

I just wish the reply to Aang’s, “How could it be a bad thing that I feel an attachment to her?“ was at least some acknowledgement that love isn’t always an attachment. The basics of the conflict could have been preserved if the Guru simply didn’t think Aang was capable of loving without attachment, at his maturity level.

I could write a whole essay questioning when Yoda was wrong, the degrees of his various states of wrongness, and whether the storytellers believed him to be wrong at the time of production. It would be no more coherent than The Great Kataang Detachment.

No wonder Gyatso was so opposed to the way Aang was being trained, in their rush to make him battle-ready the monks weren’t even giving him the fundamentals he needed as the Avatar. There’s a slight callback here to Iroh emphasizing the basics to Zuko early in Book 1, and a clearer parallel with Katara warning Aang in Book 2 against taking shortcuts to get to the Avatar State.

I was surprised to find Attack of the Clones actually made the distinction between attachment and love through Anakin himself, of all people (audio clip):

“Attachment is forbidden.
Possession is forbidden.
Compassion, which I would define
as unconditional love…
is central
to a Jedi’s life.
So you might say that
we are encouraged to love.” 

Much like ATLA, the PT was pretty terrible about making this distinction clear and I agree we’ll never see the end of it if we start talking about Yoda being right/wrong. Still, Anakin’s line arguably foreshadows the real reason he fell–not because of love, but because he failed to love Padmé unconditionally. Because he was willing to mistreat her unless she complied with him to soothe his fears, and unless she overlooked the terrible things he had done. His desire to control and possess overwhelmed his love, and that was why he fell. This was arguably also the foundation for his choosing to follow Luke back, when he realized he was wrong and saved Luke despite his defiance of his wishes.

jewishcomeradebot:

lj-writes:

jewishcomeradebot:

All that fracas about my Finnrey meta has kinda made me want to write one about how Rey’s arc in TFA and TLJ is about growing up and letting go of childish things, her longing for her family and her belief that they cared about her and step into the adult world of responsibilities. But that it’s still emotionally satisfying because it does give her what she originally wanted, someone who loves her and comes back for her in Finn. It’s just not in the way she originally thought it would be.

And that when she meets Finn again at the end of TLJ it’s no longer as the child who seeks to run off and have her fairy tale happy ending without consequences or responsibilities, but as a young woman with commitments and responsibilities of her own.

People will point to her insistence that they see the BB-8 mission through in TFA as proof that she was already responsible and a grownup–but that wasn’t what was going on. She was bound by her desire to go back to Jakku, not commitment to the Resistance’s cause. She was looking to be her parents’ child again, not a grownup responsible for others. This is completely understandable and sympathetic because she had her childhood ripped from her and never got to be protected and cherished the way children should be. It’s very hard to grow up when you weren’t able to be a child first, and Rey’s story in many ways is about that difficult journey.

I never got that argument. When Rey runs off from Maz’s castle in TFA BB-8 follows her and corners her when she stops. 

Rey: What are you doing?

BB-8: *clearly wants to know what she’s up to*

Rey: You have to go back.

BB-8: *asks something*

Rey: I’m leaving

BB-8: *wants to come with her*

Rey: You can’t. You have to go back, you’re too important.

This doesn’t sound like someone who’s prepared to invest in the Resistance and who’s already ditched the idea of going back to Jakku. She’s at this point, which comes after the Force back and after Finn has left too, literally saying to BB-8 that she’s going back and not to the Resistance.

She was willing to take the droid to the Resistance, with Finn. I think that’s the crucial point for her. He was the first person who showed any kind of concern for her, but now he’s gone and with him her reason for staying and moving on with the mission.

And notice she only gave “we have to complete the mission” as a reason when she still thought Finn was a Resistance fighter. She thought invoking the Resistance’s mission would get him to stay because that’s what he was committed to do. Once he revealed he wasn’t Resistance she no longer brought up the mission because it no longer mattered to her, as you point out. This wasn’t irresponsible or heartless of her; thanks to her efforts, BB-8 already had people to take him back to the Resistace. Now that she had gotten BB to this point it wasn’t her concern anymore, Finn was. And with Finn lost to her she was going to go back to her hopeless waiting, the only chance she had at being loved and cared for again. And then Kylo Ren appeared, the dark Cupid that brought them back together

Also lmao this means Finnrey as a romance, unlike Reylow, passes the “Twilight test,” excerpted by @elaine-spades (link): the female protagonist wants something for herself, is proactive about getting it, and succeeds or fails as a result. The poster in the excerpt even says helping Finn would have been a valid motivation for Rey, but RJ had to be too clever by half and make it obscure as hell. I don’t blame the audience for not getting it, another case of “color-blind” writing not working out as @diversehighfantasy has discussed in Screw the Slow Burn (link).

jewishcomeradebot:

lj-writes:

jewishcomeradebot:

I don’t understand the people who say that Kylo would have worked better if he had been a random, I really don’t. Kylo’s connection to the Skywalker bloodline, along with the lack of clear motive for his actions, is the entire point.

See, he’s a Nazi.

Okay, so technically he’s an allegory for a neo-Nazi in a space fantasy setting, but given that this hellsite has a distinct difficulty with complex concepts I’ll keep it simple. He’s a Nazi.

Why did Nazis do what they did? Why do neo-Nazis do what they do?

If you peel away all the embellishments and propaganda it comes right down to this: they see themselves as having a special legacy, a special bloodline to protect and they have a right to do so because they feel they’ve been chosen.

JJ has said that the early concept of Jedikiller only started working when they made him connected to the Skywalker bloodline, to the chosen family in Star Wars.

Kylo’s motivation, like that of all Nazis, is that he’s doing this because he belongs to the chosen people and thus have a right to rule. Not because he’s qualified, but because he belongs to the destined people.

No it’s not deep or complex, but it was never meant to be. Kylo is an antagonist and one JJ always meant to emulate a neo-Nazi. Giving him complex motivation would have detracted from this and, like with the real life equivalent, made it possible to justify what he’s doing because he has X, Y, Z motivation. Instead JJ gave him the most basic motivation of Nazis, he’s right because he’s chosen and because he has the strength to do what he does.

It’s not glorious. It’s pathetic, sad and ultimately someone who’s irredeemable. Not because he couldn’t choose differently than he does but because it’s not a motivation that makes anyone want to see him redeemed.

Of course, even people who sees Kylo as a villain and antagonist have a really hard time accepting him being a Nazi, so maybe this view isn’t really that surprising.

I mean the actor himself told us that Kylo Ren is an elitist (link), it’s not that deep people.

[Adam Driver] refuses to see his character as bratty. “There is a little bit of an
elitist, royalty thing going on,” he says, reminding us that the
character’s estranged mom is “the princess. I think he’s aware of maybe
the privilege.”

Cass Sunstein has criticized TLJ in part because Kylo didn’t fall due to losing a loved one (link), but maybe that’s because… Kylo is no Anakin… and is not nearly as sympathetic?

Mr. Dark Side, Kylo Ren, does have a bit of a struggle, and in that
sense, Johnson maintains continuity with Lucas’s vision. But in this
movie, at least, the struggle turns out to be a head fake. Because
Kylo’s descent doesn’t have the precipitating cause of Anakin’s – the
loss of loved ones – and because we don’t see Kylo suppressing the
better angels of his nature, the film doesn’t come anywhere close to the
depths of Lucas’s films.

If anyone is positioned as the new Anakin–but with a happy ending–it’s Rey, in struggling with the loss of loved ones, or at least her idea of them, and also in resisting manipulation by her would-be abusive mentor Kylo where Anakin fell to Palpatine’s manipulation. It’s interesting that Sunstein couldn’t recognize this story when it manifested in a female character, though to be sure it’s a common enough blind spot and RJ didn’t make it easy for anyone.

Precisely.

People, not just Cass here, are obsessed with having Kylo be the next Vader/Anakin, but he isn’t. Not to mention they’re even more obsessed with the reason why he fell to the Dark Side than they are with Rey’s parentage.

But let me ask you something. Did we know why Anakin fell in the OT? No, we didn’t, because the reason for it wasn’t relevant to Luke for whom Vader was a foil.

Is it relevant to Finn or to Rey why Kylo fell? So far we’ve been given not a single reason why this information should be relevant to either of them, so I don’t get why people are so upset about not knowing.

Except as yet another case of prioritizing the white guy over the two actual leads in the ST. Kylo’s motives for turning to the Dark are no more interesting or relevant to the narrative than Vader’s were in the OT. It’s not a plot hole, it’s not a flaw in the storytelling, it’s intentional. Only the parts of Kylo and his actions that are pertinent to Finn and Rey are relevant to the story, and unless someone can come up with a good reason why either of them should remotely care about it it’s going to remain irrelevant.

It’s why I was so attached to the idea of Rey Solo, I admit, because it would reconcile Kylo being like Anakin with the reason for his fall being relevant to Rey. The why would tie into Rey’s story while the how would directly contrast with Finn’s.

But it looks like the ST is going to go the route of only the how being relevant to both Rey and Finn. Rey at the end of TFA and even more throughout TLJ is where Kylo used to be, only to make different choices: she was chosen and groomed by a powerful Dark Force user while vulnerable and alone, but unlike Kylo she told the guy to fuck all the way off and chose to stand with her friends, not murder them. Finn throughout TFA and TLJ continues to present a direct contrast to Kylo Ren at every point, from backgrounds to choices to responses to abuse.

Rey is the one who could have been Kylo, had Kylo succeeded in his efforts. Finn is the one who stands in complete opposition to Kylo, and Kylo hates him for it.

This only strengthens the Finnrey/Anidala feels, by the way. Anakin/Rey was Palpatine/Kylo’s chosen victim-apprentice, but where Anakin chose the darkness and servitude Rey chose the light and freedom. Padmé/Finn was Palpatine/Kylo’s rival and enemy, but where Palpatine succeeded in destroying Padmé Kylo failed because where Anakin turned against Padmé, Rey was steadfast in her loyalty to Finn. We have no idea and no reason to care why Palpatine fell other than his desire for power, and the same is true of Kylo.

jewishcomeradebot:

All that fracas about my Finnrey meta has kinda made me want to write one about how Rey’s arc in TFA and TLJ is about growing up and letting go of childish things, her longing for her family and her belief that they cared about her and step into the adult world of responsibilities. But that it’s still emotionally satisfying because it does give her what she originally wanted, someone who loves her and comes back for her in Finn. It’s just not in the way she originally thought it would be.

And that when she meets Finn again at the end of TLJ it’s no longer as the child who seeks to run off and have her fairy tale happy ending without consequences or responsibilities, but as a young woman with commitments and responsibilities of her own.

People will point to her insistence that they see the BB-8 mission through in TFA as proof that she was already responsible and a grownup–but that wasn’t what was going on. She was bound by her desire to go back to Jakku, not commitment to the Resistance’s cause. She was looking to be her parents’ child again, not a grownup responsible for others. This is completely understandable and sympathetic because she had her childhood ripped from her and never got to be protected and cherished the way children should be. It’s very hard to grow up when you weren’t able to be a child first, and Rey’s story in many ways is about that difficult journey.

jewishcomeradebot:

I don’t understand the people who say that Kylo would have worked better if he had been a random, I really don’t. Kylo’s connection to the Skywalker bloodline, along with the lack of clear motive for his actions, is the entire point.

See, he’s a Nazi.

Okay, so technically he’s an allegory for a neo-Nazi in a space fantasy setting, but given that this hellsite has a distinct difficulty with complex concepts I’ll keep it simple. He’s a Nazi.

Why did Nazis do what they did? Why do neo-Nazis do what they do?

If you peel away all the embellishments and propaganda it comes right down to this: they see themselves as having a special legacy, a special bloodline to protect and they have a right to do so because they feel they’ve been chosen.

JJ has said that the early concept of Jedikiller only started working when they made him connected to the Skywalker bloodline, to the chosen family in Star Wars.

Kylo’s motivation, like that of all Nazis, is that he’s doing this because he belongs to the chosen people and thus have a right to rule. Not because he’s qualified, but because he belongs to the destined people.

No it’s not deep or complex, but it was never meant to be. Kylo is an antagonist and one JJ always meant to emulate a neo-Nazi. Giving him complex motivation would have detracted from this and, like with the real life equivalent, made it possible to justify what he’s doing because he has X, Y, Z motivation. Instead JJ gave him the most basic motivation of Nazis, he’s right because he’s chosen and because he has the strength to do what he does.

It’s not glorious. It’s pathetic, sad and ultimately someone who’s irredeemable. Not because he couldn’t choose differently than he does but because it’s not a motivation that makes anyone want to see him redeemed.

Of course, even people who sees Kylo as a villain and antagonist have a really hard time accepting him being a Nazi, so maybe this view isn’t really that surprising.

I mean the actor himself told us that Kylo Ren is an elitist (link), it’s not that deep people.

[Adam Driver] refuses to see his character as bratty. “There is a little bit of an
elitist, royalty thing going on,” he says, reminding us that the
character’s estranged mom is “the princess. I think he’s aware of maybe
the privilege.”

Cass Sunstein has criticized TLJ in part because Kylo didn’t fall due to losing a loved one (link), but maybe that’s because… Kylo is no Anakin… and is not nearly as sympathetic?

Mr. Dark Side, Kylo Ren, does have a bit of a struggle, and in that
sense, Johnson maintains continuity with Lucas’s vision. But in this
movie, at least, the struggle turns out to be a head fake. Because
Kylo’s descent doesn’t have the precipitating cause of Anakin’s – the
loss of loved ones – and because we don’t see Kylo suppressing the
better angels of his nature, the film doesn’t come anywhere close to the
depths of Lucas’s films.

If anyone is positioned as the new Anakin–but with a happy ending–it’s Rey, in struggling with the loss of loved ones, or at least her idea of them, and also in resisting manipulation by her would-be abusive mentor Kylo where Anakin fell to Palpatine’s manipulation. It’s interesting that Sunstein couldn’t recognize this story when it manifested in a female character, though to be sure it’s a common enough blind spot and RJ didn’t make it easy for anyone.