Tag: meta

Finn, Kylo Ren, Rey, and the Cycle of Abuse

This is spun off from @jewishcomeradebot‘s post about the parallels and contrasts of Finn and Kylo Ren in TLJ–how they both kill their abusers but, where Finn walks away and is free, Kylo Ren stays despite the death of his abuser.

Finn and Kylo’s paths diverged from the very beginning of TFA, of course, at Tuanul. It was the start of Finn’s escape and Kylo Ren choosing to enmesh himself all the deeper, and it was the trajectory of these choices that led to them to the events of TLJ.

In understanding Finn’s leaving and Kylo’s staying, not to mention the nature of abuse in general, I don’t think I can emphasize enough that leaving an abusive situation is unbelievably hard.
Isolation is a big part of abuse, and leaving often means
you have little to no support or resources outside that relationship. Leaving itself may be punished by violence, which was very much true in Finn’s case. Finn had to risk his
life and fight through a space fortress just to physically leave. Once
he had escaped he had absolutely nothing and could have died in the
desert but the Force wouldn’t let him, of course. At
the end of TLJ he’s one of about 20 survivors on a space weed van (I will
never not be amused by that expression), marked and
hunted, his future uncertain.

By contrast Kylo stayed, and he
has all the comfort and resources of the First Order at his disposal.
He is powerful and important, heck, he played his cards right and he’s
effing Supreme Leader now. By all external measures Kylo is way ahead in the game.

Then there is the relational
aspect. Finn not only had to brave significant dangers just to leave, he
had to figure out an entire new way of living and relating to people.
You see him doing that even before his escape was assured, when he built
trust with Poe who was a complete stranger to him at the time. Later he became
friends with Rey and BB-8 despite a rocky beginning, even earned Han’s
trust and respect. When Rey asked him not to go on Takodana, he didn’t
tell her she’d be alone without him or she was a bad friend for not
understanding his fear. He bared his soul to her but respected her
decision completely, something no one had modeled for him in the First
Order. He had to start from scratch in so many ways, much like he had to find his way in a trackless desert to survive.

Kylo? He’s clearly
had many models of non-abusive relationships growing up in a loving
home, but he chose to discard them in favor of Snoke’s way of
manipulation and dominance. TLJ’s Kylo and Rey plot was a long exercise
in Kylo roping Rey in with superficial charm and shallow appeals to
sympathy for his own advantage. I believe he was recreating both the way
Snoke manipulated him and the dynamic he had with Snoke, undermining Rey’s self-worth so that she would easier to control, trying to get her to destroy her friends in the ultimate act of isolation like Snoke did with him. This model of relationships was easy for him, intimately familiar through Snoke’s manipulation and abuse. He chose not to explore the possibility of a relationship that did not depend on subjugation and violence, with Rey or anyone else. Despite killing his abuser he chose to continue the same destructive pattern, this time with himself in Snoke’s place.

In a way I can understand Kylo here, because again, leaving often demands a high, seemingly impossible price. I’m pretty sure nothing about Finn’s defection from the First Order inspired Kylo to follow suit, because externally speaking Finn’s life went to absolute shit from leaving and opposing the First Order. Aside from the abovementioned near-death at his former comrades’ hands and wandering in the desert with nothing, Finn was cut off from a once-absolute sense of purpose and became a wanted man. His allegiance went from an absolute power that seems poised to swallow the galaxy to a pack of pitiable losers whose lives could be–and will be, if Kylo has his way–snuffed out at any moment. What could be more foolish? In fact I would not be surprised if Kylo, in his wavering moments, used Finn’s fate as a way to harden his resolve to stay.

Unlike Finn, Kylo also has the additional prospects of prosecution for various war crimes including mass murder, torture, and complicity with genocide to look forward to, not to mention the patricide of one of the galaxy’s beloved heroes. He, like his idol Vader, has earned the kind of hatred and infamy that would outlive him. In addition, were he truly to admit to wrongdoing, the guilt and regret would and should tear his soul apart for the rest of his days. It’s like the line from Macbeth, “I am in blood stepped in so far that should I wade no more, returning were as tedious as go o’er.” He could, if he chose, brave the consequences and return to the light. But he chooses to believe he has come too far, and rather than throw away his comforts, his power, his conviction, his purpose, his sense of self-righteousness, and his ability to dominate and control, he chose to continue on his path.

This is why Finn’s and Kylo’s fates still diverge despite killing their respective abusers. For Finn it was a continuation of his journey away from abuse, not only his abusers themselves but the abusive dynamic itself. For Kylo it was a logical culmination of his journey into abuse, to continue the dynamic but with himself as the abuser rather than the victim. Finn chose to break the cycle while Kylo chose to continue it. Rey, who Kylo wanted to take his own place as the victim-apprentice, chose to break out as well and join Finn. She chose to live and fight by his and the Resistance’s side in the uncertainty of freedom, not the glittering cage of absolute power. Snoke may be dead, but as of the end of TLJ he has the last laugh because his legacy lives on through his apprentice, now become the master.

The Supreme Leader is dead. Long live the Supreme Leader.

jewishcomeradebot:

There’s an interesting juxtaposition between Kylo and Finn in The Last Jedi. Because they both end up killing their abusers in TLJ and in doing so “claiming” their identities. 

But where Finn’s action sets him free of the First Order and the Dark Side when he proudly pronounce himself ‘rebel scum’ to Phasma, embracing that he is the flaw in their system and everything she hates, and is very proud of being just that Kylo goes in the opposite direction. After killing Snoke he does not turn his back on the First Order or the Dark Side despite being offered the chance to do so and having a direct ticket out of there.

Snoke may have influenced Kylo before then, just as Phasma had control over Finn’s life until very recently, but now they’re both gone and both men are free to choose as they wish.

And their respective choices are clear.

Finn embraces the rebels, freedom and the Light Side. Kylo chooses to stay with the First Order, choosing power and the oppression of the Dark Side instead.

This is the consistent and fundamental contrast between Finn and Kylo, and I think the two representative ways (simplified by necessity) that abuse victims respond to abuse: By breaking out of the dynamic and refusing to be a part of it anymore, or by perpetuating the destructive dynamic. You can kill the monster or become the monster. If you do the latter it doesn’t matter if your abuser is no longer around; he has a new lease on life through you.

themandalorianwolf:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

It’s so funny that people who talk about Finn “fixating” or “obsessing” unhealthily over Rey fail to recognize that Rey fixated to a far greater extent on Finn. Remember Takodana? Finn was the one who accepted Rey’s decision not to come with him and walked away from her like a normal, healthy person does because he is not an abusive shithole who tells her she’s nothing trying to manipulate her into compliance. Rey was the one who didn’t want to part with a guy she had just met but she also did not assault or belittle him to make him stay because she is not, despite her trauma and abandonment issues, an entitled and unbalanced woman who thinks it’s okay to impose her will on others. Yeah, Finn went back for her when it was clear she was abducted and in imminent danger, like a good and brave person does for someone they love. How is that unhealthy or weird again?

But Rey? Did you forget the part where she searched the woods on Starkiller Base to find a wounded Finn, except it wasn’t to rescue him or anything–the planet was disintegrating around her and she wasn’t looking for the Falcon, trying to carry Finn to safety, or even drawing attention so a passing Resistance vessel might see them. At the end of her mental and physical resources, having retraumatized herself in the fight by confronting her greatest fear, she gave up hope and simply lay down on her beloved friend (whom she had known for a day), crying. For all intents and purposes she had found him to die with him.

To be clear her reaction is fully understandable and sympathetic, like mentally ill lovestruck teenager helloooo, but if you want to talk about an unusually intense fixation on a new friend that’s clearly Rey toward Finn way more than the other way around. My weirdo space nerd girl out-weirds out-dramas her gorgeous space hero any day of the week and I love her for it, okay?

Listen I get what you’re saying, but also consider: she wasn’t just willing to die with Finn, she searched through the woods to find him (leaving Kyle to get blown up alone ha ha), flip him onto his back, check his heartbeat–faint, so faint, but there–and then collapsed onto his chest sobbing. What kind of magnificently overdramatic Ophelia shit… ok actually more Hamlet shit, but you get my drift.

Consider further: She didn’t even try to find the Falcon on her own and get help for Finn. She had a handy-dandy light-generating doohickey right on her in the middle of a very dark wood, yet did not try to wave it for passing ships to see. If the wood cover was a problem she could have climbed a tree and we know she can climb. And while I’m sure carrying Finn was a daunting proposition especially in her state of complete exhaustion, literally her first appearance had her dragging very heavy scrap parts on a starvation diet. Finding the Falcon or flagging down a passing ship would have been better options in terms of time and effort, but carrying Finn wasn’t impossible if she couldn’t bear to let him out of her sight (or arms).

The scavenger Rey, the survivor, would have thought of all these options and ten times more in less time than it took you to say “character arc!” Who knows, maybe she was running through them in the back of her mind. But she was tired, so tired, and what’s more, Rey the survivor was surviving for a reason: to wait for the people who would come back for her. And now someone had, and she was with him at last, and not only was she too tired to try anymore–she saw no reason to. She had what she wanted, right there, even if he might not be able to smile or laugh or cry with her, or hug her. There’s no more thought of going back to Jakku, of trying and striving and hurting. Here in enemy territory on the verge of annihilation she is safer than at any time in memory, and she just wants to stay right here in this moment that is about to melt into forever.

It’s a beautiful and bittersweet culmination of her story, and it is very much her death–one of those situations where the character has chosen death and is for intents and purposes dead but plucked out by divine machination, as you said, for the need of the next film/episode/book. She, like Finn, has found something bigger than survival, because what they really wanted to live for was love. Now that they had found it they found it was worth dying for. They found it in each other.

Holy hell this is the most recent romantic and bittersweet argument for Finnrey I had ever seen! And it’s all canon! Set up by JJ Abrams, who is ironically coming back to end this all!

Seriously though, the relationship between Finn and Rey has got to be the most underrated relationship in this new canon. They are both ready to always die for each other on the spot.

Finn was ready to die for her the second he decided to go to Starkiller base. He knew that the chances were small in saving or finding her, but after spending the entire film running, he thought it was better to die trying to save her than save his off ass. Even when facing Kylo Ren, he knew he was outmatched. Hell he probably has the most experience with Kylo Ren. He just watched Kyle kill his own dad. There would of been no doubt in Finn’s mind that he would die as well. Yet he still charged forward with a fucking glow stick hoping to at least buy her sometime till she woke up she could run.

Even in that hot dumpster fire that is The Last Jedi, when did Finn chose to sacrifice himself? After the Falcon showed up. He knew that behind those doors might of been the only safe place for Rey to go so he was fully willing to die if it gave his friends and Rey a chance at survival.

On the flip scale look at Rey! That crazy, frantic, dramatic AF, Skywalker woman! She went on to an enemy ship, with evil Space Hugh Hafner just because she thought that Kyle would help them win the war. And when it turned out that Kyle was a D-bag, she literally went all Force crazy just to make sure she had time to get to Hoth Crait to save Finn and her friends. Hell she asks about Finn whenever she gets a chance.

Even after they finally reunite, are they up each other’s ass? No! Rey is letting Finn take care of Rose, all the while giving him romantic puppy dog eyes, and Rey is taking to Poe and Leia. The two missed each other like hell but still gave the other space.

These two space assholes have a co-dependent relationship on each other, that is true, but it is the healthiest relationship in the entire movie and it’s clear that their love will beat out anything.

themandalorianwolf:

malgalo:

themandalorianwolf:

Kylo Ren chose his life

It’s getting old to read everyone making excuses for Kylo Ren when he is the only one causing his own problems. Ben chose to become Kylo Ren. Kylo chose to burn down and kill Luke’s students. Kylo chose to kill his father. Kylo chose to take over the First Order, Kylo chose to lead the attack to kill the resistance. You can like his character all you want, but Kylo Ren has chosen to be the villain.

Han and Leia didn’t abuse, neglect, hate, or abandon Kylo Ren.

Han and Leia are two of the most selfless people in the entire Star Wars franchise. I know a good deal of idiots would like to just throw them under the bus, but instead of talking stupid, how about actually watching the older movies. Han and Leia were two strong, kind people who helped save the galaxy. They sacrificed everything to do so. They were overjoyed when they had a son and did everything in their power to keep his happy and safe.

They had left him with a droid, a babysitter briefly like any other parent would and even that didn’t last long . He wasn’t almost killed by it. Were these books only skimmed through once.? There are plenty of written evidence of Kylo with Han or Leia in his childhood. They loved him. The only reason they sent him to Luke was to help him.

Speaking of Luke…

There is no context to the Luke and Ben Flashbacks.

We were given 3 out of context flashbacks. 2 of which were altered by the storyteller. Ironically Kylo Ren doesn’t say Luke tried to kill him because he thought he was a monster. Kylo Ren didn’t say he didn’t know why Luke was in his hut.

All Kylo Ren said was Luke feared his power and he defended himself. Then he killed half of Luke’s students and burned the temple.

All Luke said was that he saw death and destruction in Ben’s mind and then he ignited his lightsaber. Ben and him had an altercation, then Ben killed half of Luke’s students and burned down the temple.

There is no context in what happened before that even led up to that moment. If you all can come up with a million scenario on how Kylo Ren can come back to the light, please try to use that safe effort to think of why Luke Skywalker, the man who would literally die for his family, who risked the entire galaxy to save his friends and family, then again to save his father, would ever think his own student and nephew was beyond saving.

The only thing that is confirmed: Luke and Ben had an confrontation then Ben killed half of Luke’s students and burned the temple.

That’s the only think Kylo and Luke agree on.

No one forced Kylo Ren to act like a cold blooded monster

Snoke did not order Kylo to murder Lor San Tekka and the Jakku villagers. No one told Kylo Ten to kidnapp and mind rape torture Rey. I don’t care what abuse excuse is made. Cold blooded murder, torture, and even killing your own father is no reason or excuse. Beyond that, we have no actual confirmation what this “abuse” was. The most I’ve seen or read is that Snoke manipulatived him. Hell Snoke didn’t even touch Kylo until Kylo made the move to attack him in TLJ.

Am I saying that Snoke is not responsible for many of Kylo’s problems? No. Like the Emperor was to Vader, Snoke was to Kylo. But just like Anakin had a choice, so did Kylo Ren and he chose this life.

Kylo Ren chose to continue on with the mission to conquer the Galaxy.

After killing Snoke, Kylo Ren was given the option to order a stop to the First Order ‘s attacks. His response was:

“It’s time to let old things die.”

Kylo Ren says that the Rebels, Jedi, Sith, Snoke, Skywalker and everything must die and that he will take control of everything. Snoke is dead, this is all Kylo Ren. Just Kylo Ren. It is Kylo Ren that wants to go down to Crait and kill the remaining Resistance members. Even Hux did not want to continue the battle after finding Snoke dead. It is Kylo Ren that orders for all of the Resistance members to be killed. It is Kylo Ren that tells Luke he will kill the Jedi, that he will kill the resistance, and that he will kill Rey.

Kylo Ren is the antagonist of the Star Wars sequel trilogy, but that doesn’t mean his fate is set in stone

Kylo Ren is the villain of these new movies. The last 2 out of 3 movies have made Kylo Ren the main antagonist.

Does that mean Kylo Ren is not a sympathetic or interesting character? No. Does Kylo Ren deserve Redemption? No. Does that mean Kylo Ren can’t try to earn redemption, no again.

If Kylo Ren is to get better or worse, it is up to Kylo Ren to make that choice. Not some fan to defend Kylo Ren with a headcanon explaining why Kylo Ren killing armies of babies isn’t his fault because he’s sad.

Finally stop saying abuse gives a reason or an excuse for people to hurt people.

Would you like to know another person from a troubled childhood? He killed his abusive father and showed everyone who doubted him until he could make a change.

Ramsey Bolton

Ramsey is a character who was actually abused, his father is abusive, and everyone is afraid of him and thinks he’s a monster.

Oh, and Ramsey is a murdering, torturing, rapist but it’s ok because he had an abusive childhood!

Shut the hell up.

There is no excuse or reason to hurt other people. The moment you start making excuses for suffering is the moment you become wrong.

No one turned Kylo Ren into anything. Kylo Ren is who he is because of himself.

This is all coming from a Kylo Ren fan

I’m a fan of the character Kylo Ren. He’s not my favorite, that’s Finn and Luke, but I enjoy Kylo Ren. I’m invested in his story, yet I’m aware of that Kylo Ren is First and for most the main antagonist of the new trilogy. I’m open to almost any suggestions, but I want it to make sense. Not some bad written fanfic. I want the choices made to matter.

What about this character?

Ooooh God I haven’t visited Daenerys is so long!

If anything she’s worse.

The reason I still like Kylo Ren, is even though his stand make excuses for him, Kylo Ren doesn’t say shit to excuse his behavior or give a reason. He’s like. “Fuck it. I’m a monster.” If that’s true or not is another debate.

Daenerys on the other hand believes she is entitled to the world because of her bad experiences. News flash, the world doesn’t owe you shit and acting just as bad if not worse than your enemy makes you as bad as the enemy.

themandalorianwolf:

lj-writes:

One thing that bothers me about how TLJ is supposed to subvert the traditional SW idea of heroism is, this subversion just happened to take place after SW was led by heroic women and characters of color. Part of the reason fans of color responded so positively to TFA was because it put men of color and a woman in traditional heroic roles with a modern twist. Finn is a reluctant hero, but a former Stormtrooper who wrestles with his trauma. Poe is a hotshot pilot with a heart of gold, but a humble and kindhearted one who doesn’t rely on toxic masculinity. Rey is a Force user who came from nowhere, but a woman who is also struggling with abandonment issues. The main villain is a moderately attractive young white man. TFA has been criticized for its overreliance on ANH’s tropes, but in a way it was what a lot of SW fans needed, to see themselves in the same, even old-fashioned heroic roles that were denied to them.

But no, as soon as we have Black and Latino leads in main trio, there is a huge insistence that things can’t be this way. Large sections of fandom start to insist that the actual tragic hero and true victim must be the murdering and torturing white guy. Then the franchise itself partly backs them up with TLJ’s so-called subversions–no, Finn is a coward who has to be slapped into place by a wiser woman. No, Poe is a macho gloryhound who has to be literally slapped into his place by white women. Rey is a gullible girl who has to rely on one white guy or another. And none of them can be from a special bloodline because we have to subvert that now, too. Force forbid characters of color and female leads have heritage of their own, that’s solely for white men. Oh, and we’re no longer interested in Finn’s, Poe’s, or Rey’s trauma, the only internal life that matters is the white mass murderer’s.

So the message I get from this is that traditional heroism is boring and no longer for SW the moment characters of color and women have a shot at it. To borrow an image that’s been used in other contexts, it’s like we’re climbing a ladder to get somewhere we’ve wanted for decades. Then, mid-climb, the people who have already climbed the ladder to the top kick it away. While we’re on the ground hurting and wondering what the hell just happened, the white guy who kicked the ladder lectures us from on high how useless the ladder was in the first place and how stupid we were to want to climb it. That’s pretty galling, to say the least, coming from a franchise that still has a problem with letting characters of color and especially Black women simply exist on screen.

This is why it rubs me the wrong way when fans, especially white fans, are so enthusiastic about the subversiveness of TLJ. They’re using faux progressive language while being completely oblivious to, or choosing to ignore, that this “subversion” comes across as a slap in the face to many fans.

That’s what pisses me off about TLJ, among other things. TFA is subversion enough.

TFA

Finn: The Red Shirt Stormtrooper turns out to be the hero of the galaxy

Rey: The damsel in distress turns out to be a Skywalker Jedi.

Poe: The hot headed rogue turns out to be a humble Resistance Hero.

Kylo: The son of two heroes turns out to be the villain and rejects redemption.

Snoke: The cool and calm calculating big bad instead of the overused sadist trope.

Hux: The young general who stands toe to toe with Kylo.

The ending of the film ends bittersweet, unlike the happy ending of A new Hope. Han is dead, a system is dead, Finn is in a coma and Rey is traumatized from her experiences. But Starkiller base is destroyed and Kylo is defeated. Luke Skywalker is found. The War is just beginning.

TLJ

Finn: Stereotypical Black comic relief – no character arc

Poe: hot head Latino man who never listens – always wrong

Rey: Soft eyes girl who is used as a plot device – no character arc.

Rose: Refuge – no character arc

Luke: Grumpy old man – used as a plot device.

Kylo: Plot device with a character arc.

TLJ isn’t subversion. It’s a polished turd that no one wants to accept is bad.

Exactly. And yet TFA is lambasted for being derivative, while TLJ is hailed as the great white hope of Star Wars. It’s almost like subversion ain’t good enough if it uplifts and empowers female characters and characters of color.

One thing that bothers me about how TLJ is supposed to subvert the traditional SW idea of heroism is, this subversion just happened to take place after SW was led by heroic women and characters of color. Part of the reason fans of color responded so positively to TFA was because it put men of color and a woman in traditional heroic roles with a modern twist. Finn is a reluctant hero, but a former Stormtrooper who wrestles with his trauma. Poe is a hotshot pilot with a heart of gold, but a humble and kindhearted one who doesn’t rely on toxic masculinity. Rey is a Force user who came from nowhere, but a woman who is also struggling with abandonment issues. The main villain is a moderately attractive young white man. TFA has been criticized for its overreliance on ANH’s tropes, but in a way it was what a lot of SW fans needed, to see themselves in the same, even old-fashioned heroic roles that were denied to them.

But no, as soon as we have Black and Latino leads in main trio, there is a huge insistence that things can’t be this way. Large sections of fandom start to insist that the actual tragic hero and true victim must be the murdering and torturing white guy. Then the franchise itself partly backs them up with TLJ’s so-called subversions–no, Finn is a coward who has to be slapped into place by a wiser woman. No, Poe is a macho gloryhound who has to be literally slapped into his place by white women. Rey is a gullible girl who has to rely on one white guy or another. And none of them can be from a special bloodline because we have to subvert that now, too. Force forbid characters of color and female leads have heritage of their own, that’s solely for white men. Oh, and we’re no longer interested in Finn’s, Poe’s, or Rey’s trauma, the only internal life that matters is the white mass murderer’s.

So the message I get from this is that traditional heroism is boring and no longer for SW the moment characters of color and women have a shot at it. To borrow an image that’s been used in other contexts, it’s like we’re climbing a ladder to get somewhere we’ve wanted for decades. Then, mid-climb, the people who have already climbed the ladder to the top kick it away. While we’re on the ground hurting and wondering what the hell just happened, the white guy who kicked the ladder lectures us from on high how useless the ladder was in the first place and how stupid we were to want to climb it. That’s pretty galling, to say the least, coming from a franchise that still has a problem with letting characters of color and especially Black women simply exist on screen.

This is why it rubs me the wrong way when fans, especially white fans, are so enthusiastic about the subversiveness of TLJ. They’re using faux progressive language while being completely oblivious to, or choosing to ignore, that this “subversion” comes across as a slap in the face to many fans.

starwarsbelikethetitanic:

This is hands down one of my favorite scenes in the Force Awakens. One reason being it helps to validate the theory of a force sensitive Finn. He is able to hears the screams of the people in Hosnian system. Before he ever turns around to see the red beam in the sky.

Second and most important this scene is where I feel Finn truly shows us how much of a hero he is. Seeing the destruction of the Hosnian systems he knows the F.O. is behind it. Meaning there more than likely on there way to attack. So what does he decide to do?

He chooses to be selfless and go back to help Han, Chewie, and Rey. Something he has absolutely no obligation to do. Finn rightly deserve to leave behind all of this destruction and heartache. He deserves to be somewhere safe after all of the horror he has been subjected to in his life. He doesn’t owe anybody hes not with the rebellion there is nothing for him to gain by helping Rey, Han and Chewie. Yet he chooses to go back and protect a group of people he’s just met. He does this because he is a kind and compassionate man. A man who has every right to leave all this destruction behind yet still chooses to save others at the risk of his own life. Finn is a truly kind and amazing person and this scene helps cement that fact.

What’s your favorite of the Avatar 4 nations?

In Aang’s era, toss-up between Fire Nation and Earth Kingdom. I like exploring the Fire Nation because, like many colonial powers, it’s a fascinating mix of relative social progress and racist, imperialistic attitudes. It amuses me that people hold it up as some kind of feminist example though, because, er, I’m pretty sure there were/are women in the other three Nations?

The Earth Kingdom is a great combination of eyeroll-worthy incompetence and backwardness in the ruling classes, and amazing resilience and vitality among its peoples. I love how diverse and interesting they are just visually, too. I adore that the FN vs. EK conflict wasn’t one of Evil Nation vs. Good Nation; Ba Sing Se was a haunting depiction of both political tyranny and a state that had failed by design and not accident.

In Korra’s era, Republic City. I love the idea of Republic City as a former colony/new nation that’s struggling toward functionality and independence, although the execution was pretty muddled. I would also have loved to see more of the postwar EK, especially away from Ba Sing Se and during/after Kuvira’s campaign. It is such an unwieldy and ungovernable continent, and I’m pretty sure the stubborn Earth Peoples would have been no kinder to an internal conqueror than they were to the FN.

There are potentially interesting stories to be told in the postwar Fire Nation itself, too, like how it reconciles its past with its current role, and its march toward constitutional monarchy and perhaps eventual democracy, and how Izumi and the other royals will deal with that. I’d love to see them be the bad guys from the viewpoint of the characters who support democracy.

My problem with Kylo Ren

themandalorianwolf:

image

Kylo Ren’s lack of Motivation: Regardless of how I feel about Uncle Luke sneaking in Ben Solo’s room late at night to poke him with his Lightsaber, I don’t like btw, the real problem I have with Kylo Ren is the fact that I don’t know the actual reason why he did what he does anything. Ben thinks Luke tried to kill him, but why did he kill Luke’s other students or burn down the temple? Why did he join the First Order? What did he hope to accomplish by joining the First Order? Why did he dig up Vader’s mask? If he thought killing Han Solo, his father, would finally snuff out his light, why didn’t he kill Finn and Rey when he had the chance? Even know, why does he say “Let the past die”, but continue to lead the First Order in the same direction that Snoke did? Snoke wanted the Resistance dead, so why take up his mission. Why did he go from calm and controlled in most of TLJ to a screaming lunatic again by the end?

The problem I have with Kylo Ren is that there isn’t a clear motivation on why he does anything. Kylo Ren seems like he acts how the plot demands him to act and actually doesn’t even have a clear motivation. And it’s not like the Joker’s lack of motive. The Jocker has a motive, even if that motive changes throughout the years. The consistent motive he has had has been “Just Because”. The motive to do things just because you can do them has been clearly displayed in his actions and his unpredictable nature. That’s not the case with Kylo Ren. It’s been 2 films and I have no idea why he does anything. The only reasons we have are headcanons but no actual proof or canon confirmed information.

It’s this lack of actual motivation that many people find issues with the character. I know I like the character’s backstory, it’s interesting. The son of two war heroes that fell to the darkside and is now one of the biggest threats to the galaxy. It’s a cool concept…the only problem is that there is no motivation. That problem makes Kylo Ren a cool concept for a character, but not an actual character.

It’s this lack of motivations why so many people argue if he is a flat traditional villain. A complicated Anti-Villain, or something misunderstood in-between. It also doesn’t that since this character lacks the context needed to understand why they do what they do, many people are left wondering why they should care. I’ll be the first to say that Kylo Ren’s popularity is carried by Adam Driver’s acting chops but still fails because the Writers give nothing to us in regard to motivation.

Here are two examples of two characters that I feel have amazing writing and character development.

Zuko from Avatar the Last Airbender – His sense of honor is what drives him for the entire series of ATLA as the antagonist to dueltagonist. It’s what makes him a full character. Even when you didn’t agree with the character, you knew where he was coming from. That’s important. It’s what drives him to spend the entire 1st season trying to capture the hero for his father – training that same hero to defeat his father. It’s his motivations throughout the series that makes the character so interesting. I don’t even need to know his backstory or have a fan explain why I should like the character. Even when he is doing that’s I don’t like, I enjoy the character because I can understand why he does things.

Jaime Lannister from Game of Thrones – Jaime’s motivation is the struggle he faces between doing what is right for the many vs doing what is right for his family. These motivations are what drives him to do many morally ambiguous or downright bad things. Ranging from killing the mad king he had sworn to protect before the king could end countless lives – to pushing a child out of a tower when the kid caught him having sex with his twin sister. These are things that could make a weaker written character look so inconsistent, yet because the writers take time to develop Jaime Lannister and his motivations, we can understand the character. Do we agree? No. But we can understand it. For the most part at least.

Kylo Ren doesn’t have any clear motivation as to why he does what he does. So when we see him Kill Lor San Tekka in cold blood, order the slaughter of the Jakku villagers, Mind torture Rey and Poe, kill his father Han Solo, almost kill Finn, but not finish the job, offer training to Rey, hesitate in kill his mother Leia Organa, kill Snoke, takes over the First Order because the past should die, but then continues with the same mission as the First Order.

No one can actually explain why he does the things he does without having to resort to a headcanon, or resort to a third party media to explain his actions. That’s a failure in writing. If you can’t explain the motivation for a character in the main source of media he appears in, that means you have not done a good job in writing your character.

I can watch Zuko and I understand his character perfectly. Anything from the video games, the comics, or commentary by the creators just explores a deeper meaning or shows to more to what I already know, but I don’t need any of that extra stuff to understand the character, just appreciate him more.

Even Jaime Lannister, who was suffering from a lack of character development in the most recent seasons, his motivations were still clear. Did his fans agree with his choices? No. Yet we all knew why.

I understand Kylo Ren now as much as I did when he first walked on screen. Everything I know about him is through his ambiguous backstory, which is even missing large gaps in it.

That’s my problem with Kylo Ren though. Adam is doing a great job, honestly carrying the character. I just wish the writing was a good as the acting.

diversehighfantasy:

lj-writes:

“Star Wars is a story about redemption!”

Then I’m rooting for the redemption of the tens of thousands of Stormtroopers who were abducted, enslaved, brainwashed, indoctrinated, and abused. They knew nothing else, but if shown another way maybe they can make a different choice and bring down their oppressors.

“Star Wars is a story about hope!”

Then I hope Supreme Leader Kyle Ron, a torturer and murderer who had every opportunity to turn away from evil but refused it each time, who willingly took over an enslaving genocidal organization and is continuing its policies, will watch his entire world collapse around him and suffer utter and total defeat.

“But… you don’t get it. It’s a story of redemption and hope for white men who have famous names and a need to get away scott-free with their crimes.”

Maybe, just maybe, the sequel trilogy that refuted the entire idea of the Skywalkers being special and is intent on killing and sidelining every Skywalker it can get its hands on, that made its one surviving Skywalker/Solo an evil war criminal and fascist tyrant, plans to subvert the idea that a powerful bloodline is the end-all be-all in this new universe? Maybe characters like Finn, Rey, and the Stormtroopers–the actual forgotten children of the universe–are meant to be the true heroes who triumph over an elitist mass murderer with a famous name. You know, just maybe.

And like, of all of the characters over the years, all of the suffering they endured, all of the tragic endings, Kylo Ren is the one who should have a happy ending? Nah.

The Sith were destroyed. Kylo proves that you don’t need the lure of the Sith to have evil in you. He makes choices, completely conscious of the fact that what he’s doing is wrong. And yet he’s treated as if he doesn’t have an ounce of free will. Even Anakin had to be carefully manipulated over years. How is puppet Kylo (despite having clear free will when he’s seen by himself asking Anakin to help him fight the light) who turns into the happy good guy complex storytelling? How does that make sense?

The problem is, Kylo being a commander (now Supreme Leader) of the First Order, an organization that destroys more planets and terrorizes more people than The Empire did and doesn’t even pretend to be anything but evil, means that all the battles of Yavin and Hoth and Endor did was destroy some weapons. What does it matter that the Sith were defeated if the Empire came back with bigger weapons? Kylo isn’t where he is because he’s a Sith who fell to the Dark Side, but because he wants to be. Snoke’s fatal error was thinking he could be controlled.

So, where’s the hope? How can it end so that things are better, and the entire Skywalker history isn’t reduced to nothing? I agree that it’s with the thousands of Stormtroopers, a rebellion that guts the FO from the inside, it’s with the billions of people in the galaxy standing up against tyranny, and Luke’s legacy, Rey, bringing the Jedi into a new day. That’s hope for the galaxy, not for one corrupted man.

Puppet Kylo makes story sense in one and one context only: an attempt to derail Finn’s story with “poor Ben had it worse!” Kylo is Finn’s foil in every way. They are from contrasting backgrounds and made the opposite choices. The same people Kylo hurt, Finn befriended and helped. Kylo in TFA was shown to hate Finn obsessively, probably for this very reason. Puppet Kylo takes him out of this foil relationship and gives his pain, his background, precedence over what was done to Finn and what he chose to do in response. Finn, Rey, Poe, and everyone else who was victimized by him are no longer allowed their own pain, they are now forced to empathize with Kylo and being angry about what was done to them makes them the bad guys. TLJ was an overly long exercise in centering Kylo and sidelining Finn, but even it was not stupid enough to go the puppet route and showed, in its muddled way, Finn and Kylo make the opposite choices yet again.

Puppet Kylo is boring and terrible storytelling in every way, but it is very effective at prioritizing whiteness and sidelining the Black lead. It’s in the same vein as arguing Kylo’s war crimes are not too bad, which in addition to making me want to run far away from whoever spouts that shit, also has the convenient effect of denigrating the morality of Finn’s choice and painting him as some kind of helplessly softhearted puppy (one war crimes-apologist Reylow actually called him “my good boy, my best boy”) instead of a psychologically complex man who made difficult moral choices in spite of the physical danger and his own deep-seated trauma.

Star Wars is, fundamentally, a story about choice. Kylo’s choices are what defined him, else the past two movies were just giant wastes of time and the last movie will essentially have to start from scratch. He is far beyond a happy ending. Maybe he’ll have a redemption, but after all the lives he’s destroyed he can’t be both happy and redeemed. He passed that point the moment he chose to respond to Luke’s momentary lapse with mass murder.