Tag: meta

Hey, you’ve written some of the best anti-Reylo metas I’ve ever read on this site, so I was wondering if you could explain… what’s with Tumblr’s blind-spot for Uncle Iroh? Like, he’s responsible for hundreds if not thousands of deaths, as one of the leading generals of a barely-coded Imperial Japan. And… the show didn’t really even do a redemption arc for him? They just kinda treat him as a moral authority from Day 1?

Thanks anon! That’s what I aspire to be, the best anti Reylo. Idk, doesn’t Iroh have a redemption arc in the show? At the end of Book1 he tried to save the Moon Spirit. At the end of Book 2 he gave up his freedom so a wounded (actually dead, it turns out) Aang and Katara could escape. If Aang and Katara had been captured, Aang would not have been revived and the Avatar Cycle could have ended with him. At the end of Book 3 Iroh helped liberate Ba Sing Se from Fire Nation occupation, atoning in some small measure for the death and destruction he brought to that city.

I think the point of Iroh’s character is that people can change and grow, even later in life. It doesn’t mean the harm Iroh did goes away, or that the things he did during the war were okay. If he’s a moral authority it’s in the sense that he is a wise man who knows right from wrong, in part from having done wrong in the past himself. He worked to set things right, but the wrongs he did won’t go away. They’re both the truths of the character and I think both extremes in responding to him disregard one of the truths–whether it’s uncritically squeeing about how good he is as though he never did anything wrong, or saying he is forever evil because he once did evil things.

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

Never Enough is a Kylo Ren song

It’s about someone who already has so much but can’t be satisfied because they are fundamentally not ok with who they are

What’s more, it’s a song for a character who copes with trauma in a shitty way by attempting to recreate it with someone else

And when that someone refuses, in this character’s mind that is grounds for trying to destroy their life

Luke didn’t drive Kylo Ren to the Dark Side

kyberfox:

kunstninja:

darthporgueisthewise:

Kylo Ren would have turned on the Jedi and joined the First Order regardless of whether or not Luke tried to kill him.

Think for a second. Kylo already has a conspiracy of other Dark Side students at his command, ready to attack the temple at a moment’s notice? That shows forethought and preparation. Kylo turned to the Dark Side long before that tragic scene in his hut. Luke attacking him only showed that he’d been discovered and forced him to put his plan into motion early.

Exactly. He used that conflict as a justification to do what he wanted to do anyways. Later he tries to manipulate people into thinking he’s the victim in that situation when in reality it’s much more complicated.

Yeah, this. Also, he had already build his red crossguard ligthsaber and had a change of clothes to assume his Kylo identity laying about. There’s definitely premeditation.

In fact, with new canon the lightsaber is very damning evidence. The only way to get a Dark Side (red) lightsaber is by breaking and corrupting a kyber crystal and kyber does not yield easily. It takes serious effort using the Dark Side to make one, so Kylo was already messing with the dark in a pretty serious way since he had this.

Also while one might argue that “Ben”, had he actually still been good, would have been justified in the situation to pull the building down on Luke’s head since Luke in the situation looks like a threat to him, he is not justified in:

1) Attacking and killing the rest of the students who doesn’t side with him.

2) Burn down the school.

Because you’re not going to convince me that the students woke up in the middle of the night, came out to see the destroyed building and just attacked “Ben” out of hand. Which speaks of premeditated attack on Kylo’s part.

Vader and Kylo Ren – The difference between Christian and Jewish view of evil

kyberfox:

A lot of the complaints about Kylo Ren as a villain is that he lacks Vader’s larger than life evil, he’s too common, too human to be evil. Traits that are used by his stans to argue why he will/must be redeemed.

I would like to point out that both camps, those who hate Kylo Ren for his humaness and those who use it for his defense, has missed the point JJ and Lawrence were trying to make.

Keep reading

atomicheavybike:

lj-writes:

Some of the ways in which TLJ is a baldly, blatantly, aggressively Christian movie, in stark contrast to the very Jewish TFA:

  • Pain,
    suffering, abject failure and loss, including the deaths of many good
    people, are held up to be ultimately positive lessons. In Jewish thought, in contrast, while good can come of suffering pain is not good or holy in of itself. The point in Judaism is to lessen pain and improve life, not to join in suffering.
  • TLJ shows borderline obsession with “sin” and “sinners” as
    salacious and fascinating, hence the focus on Kylo Ren. (I use quote
    marks here because he is not just a “sinner,” he’s a criminal and
    abuser.) In Judaism, sin is not nearly as big a deal so far as I can tell. It is not a subject of fixation to the point of romanticization.
  • The doctrine that everyone is a sinner is simplified
    down to moral equivalence between good and evil people and
    organizations. Of course Luke also had darkness in him because he too is
    a sinner, etc.
  • Self-sacrifice is the ultimate virtue and
    washes away any mistakes one might have made, e.g. Luke and Holdo. It’s basically martyrdom in space. In Jewish thought, while martyrdom can be necessary, it is not something to be sought out and should be avoided if possible.
  • TLJ’s emphasis on forgiveness, redemption, and patience is also very Christian. Rey is suddenly and
    uncharacteristically devoted to the idea of saving Kylo Ren, Rose gives
    Finn the speech about not fighting what they hate, which doesn’t even
    make sense on its face in the midst of a struggle against a genocidal force. In contrast, anger against oppression is an important theme in Judaism and you can see this in Finn and Rey’s anger in TFA. This is one of the ways TLJ marks a sharp tonal departure from TFA.
  • On a related note, redemption for Kylo Ren as presented in this movie looks a lot like cheap grace, which German theologian and anti-Nazi dissident Dietrich Bonhoeffer described as “preaching forgiveness without requiring repentance.” Significantly, Bonhoeffer was resisting the Nazi influence on the German Lutheran church with his opposition to cheap grace. Cheap grace is an alien and repugnant concept to Judaism–forgiveness is not an obligation even if the wrongdoer has repented and made amends.
  • Yoda performs a classic smashing of the idols scene with a bait-and-switch book burning. By contrast I am told that book burning
    is unthinkable for Jewish people due to the great respect for scholarly
    traditions in Judaism. This is especially true for foundational texts like the ones Yoda pretended he was destroying: People have run into burning synagogues to save the Torah, which is a matter of not only scholarship but identity. The scene becomes all the more jarring when juxtaposed against the many purges and massacres the Jedi Order and their followers suffered, including in TFA.
  • Crait has a very distinct
    red-on-white look reminiscent of the Crusaders/Knights Templar. In Jewish imagery blue is the color of supreme importance, and it is even more strongly associated with the good guys in TFA than in the previous movies.
  • In TLJ lawful authority is
    not to be questioned, even if they are violent, seem untrustworthy, and look like they will lead to outright ruin. This is a rather un-Star Wars
    message, making it stick out all the more. On the other hand, unquestioning obedience to authority is anathema to Jewish people. They argue with everyone, including God. Especially God.
  • (via kyberfox) “Godspeed, Rebels.” First of all it’s the Resistance, but… excuse me, God?? What? God??!!? Also, Kylo Ren asks Luke if he came to save his soul, another blatant and aggressive insertion of Christian concepts into Star Wars.

(I am so deeply indebted to @kyberfox and @attackfish for this list that giving individual credit for the ideas would be distracting. Suffice it to say substantially all the perspectives on Judaism and many of the points on Christianity are theirs.)

I’ve been planning to write a post about the same thing, but this says it all better than I could. I think it may be the thing I found most jarring about TLJ – and about a lot of the commentary around Kylo Ren’s possible redemption. It all feels inappropriately Christian to me. Which is why I have hope that JJ will carry out some major course (and tone) correction.

Thank you! Oh yes, I discussed on this blog a lot of issues with forgiveness for Kylo Ren as discussed in fandom, particularly the idea that forgiveness is in itself mandatory/uplifting and the elements of cheap grace rampant in the discussion. I have also argued that JJ is taking a career risk returning to SW is this atmosphere, and there’s no conceivable reason to direct IX unless it’s to take back control of the story and get the last word on it. I certainly hope you’re right and IX is a course correction.

Some of the ways in which TLJ is a baldly, blatantly, aggressively Christian movie, in stark contrast to the very Jewish TFA:

  • Pain,
    suffering, abject failure and loss, including the deaths of many good
    people, are held up to be ultimately positive lessons. In Jewish thought, in contrast, while good can come of suffering pain is not good or holy in of itself. The point in Judaism is to lessen pain and improve life, not to join in suffering.
  • TLJ shows borderline obsession with “sin” and “sinners” as
    salacious and fascinating, hence the focus on Kylo Ren. (I use quote
    marks here because he is not just a “sinner,” he’s a criminal and
    abuser.) In Judaism, sin is not nearly as big a deal so far as I can tell. It is not a subject of fixation to the point of romanticization.
  • The doctrine that everyone is a sinner is simplified
    down to moral equivalence between good and evil people and
    organizations. Of course Luke also had darkness in him because he too is
    a sinner, etc.
  • Self-sacrifice is the ultimate virtue and
    washes away any mistakes one might have made, e.g. Luke and Holdo. It’s basically martyrdom in space. In Jewish thought, while martyrdom can be necessary, it is not something to be sought out and should be avoided if possible.
  • TLJ’s emphasis on forgiveness, redemption, and patience is also very Christian. Rey is suddenly and
    uncharacteristically devoted to the idea of saving Kylo Ren, Rose gives
    Finn the speech about not fighting what they hate, which doesn’t even
    make sense on its face in the midst of a struggle against a genocidal force. In contrast, anger against oppression is an important theme in Judaism and you can see this in Finn and Rey’s anger in TFA. This is one of the ways TLJ marks a sharp tonal departure from TFA.
  • On a related note, redemption for Kylo Ren as presented in this movie looks a lot like cheap grace, which German theologian and anti-Nazi dissident Dietrich Bonhoeffer described as “preaching forgiveness without requiring repentance.” Significantly, Bonhoeffer was resisting the Nazi influence on the German Lutheran church with his opposition to cheap grace. Cheap grace is an alien and repugnant concept to Judaism–forgiveness is not an obligation even if the wrongdoer has repented and made amends.
  • Yoda performs a classic smashing of the idols scene with a bait-and-switch book burning. By contrast I am told that book burning
    is unthinkable for Jewish people due to the great respect for scholarly
    traditions in Judaism. This is especially true for foundational texts like the ones Yoda pretended he was destroying: People have run into burning synagogues to save the Torah, which is a matter of not only scholarship but identity. The scene becomes all the more jarring when juxtaposed against the many purges and massacres the Jedi Order and their followers suffered, including in TFA.
  • Crait has a very distinct
    red-on-white look reminiscent of the Crusaders/Knights Templar. In Jewish imagery blue is the color of supreme importance, and it is even more strongly associated with the good guys in TFA than in the previous movies.
  • In TLJ lawful authority is
    not to be questioned, even if they are violent, seem untrustworthy, and look like they will lead to outright ruin. This is a rather un-Star Wars
    message, making it stick out all the more. On the other hand, unquestioning obedience to authority is anathema to Jewish people. They argue with everyone, including God. Especially God.
  • (via kyberfox) “Godspeed, Rebels.” First of all it’s the Resistance, but… excuse me, God?? What? God??!!? Also, Kylo Ren asks Luke if he came to save his soul, another blatant and aggressive insertion of Christian concepts into Star Wars.

(I am so deeply indebted to @kyberfox and @attackfish for this list that giving individual credit for the ideas would be distracting. Suffice it to say substantially all the perspectives on Judaism and many of the points on Christianity are theirs.)