There are many striking similarities between Padmé Amidala and Satine Kryze, and I believe that is what the writers were attempting to portray.
These are both strong women who rose to power during a very harsh time for their planets and civilizations. They saw there was a need for peace and liberty and climbed to the top to help those in need. On top of that, both women were young when they came to power and faced difficulties in establishing authority and government yet for the most part they prevailed. And above all, both are huge advocates of peace, no matter how you look at it.
While all those similarities between
Padmé
and Satine are positive, I’d like to really look at the one negative one (well it is many but is centrally one) that stuck out to me. And that is how their efforts of peace caused genocide or almost caused near genocide of specific cultures. And in both cases this near genocide was aimed at a certain group of people – Mandalorians.
So here, I am going to get into both
Padmé
and Satine’s belief that genocide of Mandalorians and Mandalorian diaspora (the clones) is seen as peace.
The fandom has already talked enough about Satine and what she did to the traditional Mandalorians, but I will briefly explain it here. Satine took an age old tradition/culture that had helped a planet and a system thrived and completely eradicated it. Prior to Satine’s rule, Mandalore was not only known for its warrior like traditions but for its diversity in both human ethnic variation and alien species. However after Satine came into power, the diverse population of Mandalore was either eradicated or banished leaving only white, blonde haired-blue eyed citizens. Those were seen as the “pure” or “real” Mandalorians in Satine’s eyes. Eventually, Satine’s own rule ended up crashing down and not even her own people liked her.
In short, Satine was responsible for both a cultural and ethnic genocide of the diverse, traditional Mandalorian population in the name of peace, and this genocide was praised by the galaxy. She was seen as a hero for it.
Many people may not know, but
Padmé
was a bill away from committing ethnic genocide of a Mandalorian population just as Satine did–and like Satine, Padme would have been praised for it.
In this case,
Padmé’s victims were the clones. Earlier in my post I mentioned that the clones were Mandalorian diaspora–they are Mandalorian, just not from Mandalore. They were initially
Padmé’s targets and scapegoats for the war and the Republic’s poor spending. In The Clone Wars,
Padmé
was one of the main, if not the main people who was calling for the end of cloning because she believed that the clone’s were responsible for prolonging the war and wasting the money of the Republic. In
Padmé
’s mind, wiping out the clones would achieve peace.
Let’s really look at how problematic
Padmé
s proposal was.
Padmé
is blaming the clones for a war they did not create and a war they are forced to fight in. She is blaming them for a financial burden that they did not cause instead of holding the Senators and jedi accountable for it. She is blaming them to the point where she is calling for an end to their production..
You “end the production” of tools, of objects that are inanimate. You do not end the production of actual living beings, who have a conscience, as if they are simple weapons. Furthermore,
Padmé
is smart enough to know that ending the clone production alone would not fit her ideal of “peace”. In order to stop a war, which she blames the clones for, she’d have to eradicate the living clones. She already sees these groups of marginalized men below her, has no problem blaming them for the war, and has decided that to achieve “peace”, they must be eradicated.
Something totally out of place on this blog but whatever I’m frustrated
So as a person that likes to follow things I hate (usually from the anti- insert thing here tag and the original tag), mostly so I can see the civil war over things I know little about and I like seeing people point out shitty arguments from both sides, I saw that the “anti-reylo” tag came up in my feed. I was like “Oh man, I actually have a side in this argument and want to defend it a little,” so I scrolled through the tag for some extra little arguments to sprinkle into my testimony on why the Reylo ship is absolute shit.
Keep in mind, this is coming from a huge Kylo Ren fan. Before you stop reading this, let me clarify. This is not the screeching of a jealous fan girl that doesn’t want her favorite character to be taken away in canon. While I adore him as a character, I fully realize that he is in the wrong in pretty much everything he does. I don’t think he deserves a redemption arc (though maybe just a sliver of backstory or some form of rationale, but pretty much no forgiveness, he’s still a shit person), and I don’t think he deserves any mercy from anyone to be honest. I fully accept that Kylo Ren is a piece of shit, and that feeds into my argument against Reylo.
I love Rey. I fucking love her. I don’t think I need to go too deep into why, everyone loves her. Which is why she shouldn’t be with Kylo. Kylo is an abusive piece of garbage. There’s official text saying he hates her, and there’s fucking countless posts about the other shit he’s done. Fuck even watching TFA I was like “I’m not sure why you’re my favorite you’re fucking awful”. Rey shouldn’t be with someone like that especially when there’s a perfectly good lineup of love interests, or if none of those pan out, why the hell should she have a love interest anyways?
My next point, and I don’t have too much to say about this, is that Reylo fans seem to grasp at ANYTHING to prove Reylo will become canon. Everything from some fucking spoons signifying a redemption arc to some completely separate posters loosely translated signifying they’ll be together.
I didn’t make this post to start drama, and I’ll probably get a bunch of hate anyways, and hell, maybe TLJ will prove me wrong, regardless, I just wanted to rant on something that was already done to death
I agree, Kylo Ren is a great character. He’s a great villain, someone who’s growing into his villainy much like Finn and Rey are growing into their heroism. It does the character a disservice to say he’s a brainwashed puppet or secretly a good guy.
Yes, TLJ will provide some kind of emotional answer for what drives him. That’s good! We had the prequels do that for Darth Vader, and shaky execution aside the prequels did humanize him. Did it make him any less of a villain? If anything it showed that someone with real emotions and relationships, a living being and not a droid, not just a person but even a great person with good intentions, was capable of evil. (What was that about the road to hell?)
I expect much the same in TLJ, basically “Cool motive, still murder.” The idea that romantic love could “save” a person from their wrong choices, far more that a woman who was violated and assaulted owes it to her tormentor to save him with her heart and her womb, is repugnant to me.
In all seriousness though this scene with Kylo and Finn is so goddamn powerful like holy shit I still get goosebumps. The fact that Finn doesn’t turn to Kale at first, spends time making sure Rey is alive at the detriment to his own health (which has been a running theme in this movie. The fact that Finn does anything for his friends regardless of his own safety.) and then stays there for a solid minute with his back turned towards the enemy. He’d always been the best fighter, the best soldier. If he’d just curb that part of him that was so empathetic, that cared too much. I mean wow.
And then Kylo screams “traitor!” and you can see Finn physically react to that word. You can see him recoil just a bit before sitting up straight, can see his face turn towards determination where it had, moments before, been cloaked with desperation and terror. You can see the way his eyes settle, eyebrows furrowing and mouth sets into a thin line. He’s doing this. He’s doing this. And then he just stands (all without a word. No one is speaking. As though everything and everyone is holding their breath. And we are. Or at least I am.) And you see him turn, hand holding the lightsaber (and when did he grasp it? Automatic as it was, a weapon that had been near him the whole time) and it just ignites. Guided by his purpose, his determination, his belief that he’s not dying today. Not him. Not Rey. Not anyone else.
And when Kylo Ren hisses out, lightsaber in his own hand turning his face and the area around him dark red, a twisted fire that is inside him, that the lightsaber belongs to him. Finn doesn’t hesitate. He doesn’t hesitate and the words just come out of his mouth like water, powerful and smooth.
im REALLY sick of people saying that Kylo is like Zuko…. like, this is really dumb.
Zuko > Kylo
they’re literally COMPLETE opposites in background, too. kylo grew up with loving parents and supportive family and turned to darkness anyway, while zuko was raised in nothing but strife and became an honorable man
anyways, ZUKO, SWEETIE, IM SO SORRY AN UGLY ASS BITCH WOULD SAY THAT OH MY GOD
Not to start anything but we don’t actually know what Kylo’s relationship to his parents was before he turned to the dark side. The only info we have is that they were kinda estranged due to him being trained by luke and having little contact with them. So i think it’s save to say that Leia and Han weren’t abusive but it’s understandable that Kylo would think they were neglectful. Like he was dumped on Luke bc his parents couldn’t deal with him. And the fact that he learned that he was a descendant of Darth Vader basically from the news instead of his family probably made him feel kinda betrayed as well.
So yeah I agree, Zuko and Kylo have a very different background but idg why so many ppl in the fandom insist that Kylo had 0 reason to feel angsty and that turning dark is sth he did out of fun.
Um even assuming Leia and Han were neglectful, that doesn’t take anything away from the point that Kylo and Zuko are polar opposites in their motivation especially in regards to their families. Zuko was a KID when he had half his face burned by Daddy Dearest for not supporting his country’s genocidal war hard enough and spent years trying to win his father’s love by mending that “mistake.” Kylo Ren, whatever his reasons, went against everything his parents stood for to support a genocidal enslaving regime as a grown-ass man. See? Complete opposites.
That doesn’t mean we necessarily think Kylo did what he did for funsies or that he doesn’t have sympathetic (though still unjustifiable) motivations. It just means the comparison to Zuko is inaccurate and the argument that he’ll have a Zuko-style redemption is fatuous. Your strawmanning is not appreciated and it’s nothing more than a derail.
I’m laughing so hard because I just realized that Finnrey is an actual yin and yang ship, and embody the dynamic more deeply and beautifully than any other fictional pairing I’ve seen. Why did it take me so long to see this?
We have Finn, brought up to have absolute certainty and conviction in the First Order’s cause, “raised to fight” as he put it in a recent TV spot. His instinct is to fight, to take action. But it was a yin moment that was his turning point, when he reeled from Slip’s death and refused to shoot the villagers. Yang contains yin, after all, much like the dark spot in the white yang part of the yin-yang symbol.
Then we have Rey, whose entire background revolves around patient waiting and basic survival, classic yin actions. “They’ll be back,” she tells BB-8 and herself. She avoids unnecessary conflict and keeps her head down even when Unkar is cheating and starving her. Again, though, her turning point is a very yang moment when she goes out of her way to enter a conflict and rescue BB-8.
Their meeting is a combination of yin and yang actions where they fluctuate between one and the other. When Finn sees Rey under attack his initial reaction is to step in (yang). Then Rey, outraged on BB-8′s behalf, again chooses to seek out conflict and charge Finn (yang). Finn tries to take Rey’s hand (yang) to run away (yin), and Rey defaults to avoiding contact (yin) and getting angry about it (yang). They escape together, making a fighting retreat (yin and yang). It’s a reflection of the turbulence of their situation, how their responses ripple back and forth, and also foreshadows the changes they will bring to each others’ lives.
Finn, now shunning the aggression he was raised to, seeks get far away from the action (yin). Rey, who has now begun to find belonging and conviction, wants to stay and finish the mission (yang). They both want to be together but each is seeking their balance in opposite directions, Finn to have more passivity and peace in his life, Rey toward certainty and action. Then crisis strikes, and they’re both forced to fight back until the end of the movie. Finn is forced into passivity by his coma while Rey takes new and decisive action, completing the cycle so that their starting polarities are reversed.
Early in The Last Jedi Finn awakes and is still poised to withdraw from the fight, while Rey is reaching out to Luke, trying to start a new spark where the fire seems long burned down. Again, it appears, their stories will parallel and contrast, with Finn finding a new certainty to replace the one he discarded (”We have to fight” and “I was raised to fight. For the first time I have something to fight for”) while Rey finds herself on shifting and uncertain ground according to interviews and trailers.
I always knew Finn and Rey’s arcs from TFA were intertwined, but I hadn’t realized just how much their stories have this dynamic of approach, retreat, clash, and parting. Together they balance each other, but they also find themselves apart and opposite. Yearning to join and compelled to part in sweet anticipation (”We’ll see each other again. I believe that”), in their shared gaze and clasped hands the universe itself dances in its timeless motion.
The criticism that Finnrey as a ship is just cute and fluffy with no tension is so comical to me because… did these people watch Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015 dir. J.J. Abrams)? The movie where Finn’s and Rey’s respective traumas clashed head on (”Come with me.”/”Don’t go.”), tearing apart two people who deeply care about each other? The movie where Finn bared his deepest truth to Rey, and Rey had a traumatic flashback from the distress of Finn leaving? Where he overcame his greatest fear to be there for her, which in turn helped her overcome her abandonment issues to seek her destiny?
You know, that movie?
What’s more, the reveals about the starting point of The Last Jedi indicate that Finn and Rey’s conflict from TFA is far from resolved. He still wants to get away from the fighting, this time with her, and she still has a reason to stay. Their argument back at Takodana was rudely interrupted in the previous movie, not properly ended. They went into crisis mode and reaffirmed their caring for each other before they were again rudely interrupted by Finn’s coma and galactic war. Ever since Takodana their story is basically an ongoing couple argument that they haven’t been able to end because inconsiderate masked villains and intrusive superweapons keep getting in the way.
One conflict Finn and Rey do not have is over mistreating each other and other people. That’s another misunderstanding of this ship, I believe, that meaningful conflict in a romantic relationship can only come from the parties treating each other badly or hurting others. That’s not true at all, though: Good people can still disagree in loving, thoughtful ways. Imagine that, a love story that does not depend on mistreatment as a sign of love or an obstacle to overcome; a love story that’s actually about love.
The crux of Finn and Rey’s ongoing conflict is that they’re each still trying to figure themselves out. Finn was raised to have absolute certainty and conviction which he abandoned. He is now left without a reason to fight, and wants space to find himself far away. Rey grew up unmoored, with no purpose other than survival and reunion. She is now seeking certainty, and her visions and dreams tell her she will find her place with Luke Skywalker. They’re each striving to grow into themselves after their difficult upbringings, and they see their paths in opposite directions.
The above would not even be a problem if Finn and Rey did not love each other so deeply. Young people, including people who dated, grow apart all the time and go their separate ways. It’s a part of life. But Finn and Rey want to be together despite their diverging paths, so much that that all Finn wanted to do was run away with Rey, so much that all Rey wanted was for Finn to stay with her.
This is the source of the conflict and suspense between Finn and Rey, that their love draws them together while their journeys pull them apart. This push and pull, wax and wane, rise and fall are at the center of their tension and shape the emotional landscape of the sequel trilogy. (Aficionados of Korean pop culture may also be familiar with the term milttang, the back-and-forth courting ritual that lends spice to romance.)
Finn and Rey are almost unbearably cute together, yes. They could have notihng but fluffy cuddly hours until the heat death of the universe and it would still not be enough. I’m not here to tell anyone what they should like about the ship or to police anyone’s fannishness.
I do, however, have a problem with dismissing the canon relationship of Finn and Rey as cute and fluffy and nothing more, and therefore dissatisfying as a central romance. They are cute, yes, thanks for admitting that, and they also have this incredible dynamic that was set up in TFA and is central to both their characters. It would be simple bad writing to set up such a meaty conflict and then ignore it as something just “cute” and “fluffy” that can be safely discarded.
There is nothing safe about Finn and Rey’s relationship, though. They both have so much riding on their love, forged in the warmth of companionship and the fires of adversity. It doesn’t matter how you define its nature; calling it a friendship or familial love does not make it any less central or important, and calling it a cliche romance with no depth does it a serious disservice.
Done right, Finn and Rey’s reunion will be an epic moment and a major milestone in their journeys, taken separately yet together. Theirs is the story of love between two heroes who have their own journeys without either being only the love interest for the other, which is both challenging and rewarding from a story standpoint. Will they grow apart or grow together? I eagerly await the answer.
just a not so friendly reminder that both Kylo’s parents are jewish so uh?? maybe consider that idk before you call him a nazi since he’s coded jewish
A not-so-friendly “hey, you’re absolutely wrong, and I’m a Jewish SW fan who calls him a Nazi ABSOLUTELY FOR A REASON AND THAT REASON IS HE’S MEANT TO BE SEEN AS ONE” –
An integral part of Kylo’s entire storyline as a villain is that he is
ethnically Alderaanian (Space Sephardi Jewish, as far as current canon
can be compared to real-life ethnic and cultural groups) and raised by a
mother who both witnessed the genocide of the Alderaanian people AND
had the responsibility of representing their culture on the Galactic
stage so that their presence wouldn’t be forgotten entirely after the (lowercase-h)
holocaust…
But then he, as an adult man, of his own free will, CHOSE
to reject his heritage and join an explicitly neo-Nazi-coded fascist
military/political junta that existed solely to finish the ethnoracial
cleansing the Empire started in the Galaxy and centralize power under
one tyrannical leader who believes that only human beings (all white, in
the films, although there are some Black FO officers in the
novels/comics) is fit to have independent autonomy. The First Order is
literally called The First Order because “the first order of business is begin [the Empire’s reign] again.”
One of the first acts of the FO/final acts of the Empire was to hunt
down and exterminate all surviving Alderaanians, illustrating that it
was NOT solely a political decision on Tarkin’s part – it wasn’t about getting Leia to reveal where the Rebellion HQ was; he was always going to destroy Alderaan because its culture and governing body were antithetical to the Empire’s ideals and goals and Tarkin himself HATED Alderaan and Alderaanians. (In fact, a lot of the antisemitic stereotypes neo-Nazis and antisemites associate with Jews IRL are traits that Tarkin ascribes to Leia, Breha, and Bail, particularly in that he thinks that they’re manipulative wealth-hoarders who have a secret agenda to take over the Galaxy for their own gain [which, of course, is fucking rich coming from a Grand Moff of the Empire, analogous, of course, to a rank of Reich Minister.])
Further, Kylo Ren chooses, as an adult man, of his own free will, to reject his Alderaanian heritage EXPLICITLY BECAUSE HE IS GIVEN A REASON TO BE ABLE TO SHED THAT IDENTITY. He joins the First Order – again, an OVERTLY neo-Nazis-coded illegal fascist junta, in the movie, which IDK if you saw, but is very overtly coded as a neo-Nazi regime – because he finds out that he isn’t actually the biological grandson of Bail Antilles and Breha Organa of Alderaan, but of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. He was not raised as Vader’s OR Anakin’s grandson, but as the grandson of the Organas – he joins the FO very shortly after a statue commemorating the Alderaanian Genocide is erected at the New Republic Senate building (which, btw, Kylo helps to destroy in the FO’s OWN genocide in TFA, because it’s on Hosnian Prime). He violently rejects his Space Jewish identity, and he joins the First Order to prove it.
Honestly, did you watch TFA? Have you read the extended canon materials? I honestly have no idea what the fuck Rian Johnson is doing with his Kylo/FO apologism boner, but Abrams (a Jewish director and writer) and the Kasdans (also Jewish Lucasfilm writers and producers) went out of their way to make the parallels between the First Order/Empire and the Nazis/neo-Nazi movements as nail-on-the-head obvious as they could without literally renaming them. (Someone on here once pointed out that Armitage Hux, the FO’s screamy speechifying figurehead general, even has the initials “A.H.”) Abrams doubled down on making sure that the “Kylo Ren is exulting in being able to disconnect from the Alderaanian genocide” thing by having him KEEP HUMAN ASHES AS A TROPHY, which is OBVIOUSLY rooted in Shoah imagery even if it’s a grandiose departure from reality. (It’s a movie, so of course it is.)
Beyond the fact that their jackbooted stormtroopers are LITERALLY CALLED “stormtroopers,” their film presence as universally White in the upper echelons of power – the dynamics of Rae Sloane, and why she is no longer a part of the FO’s power structure, are something I hope Lucasfilm can explain well, tbh – and Space Racist (their core belief, beyond the radically conservative “central seat of power” form of government they originally advocated for, is that only humans should have power in the Galaxy, as I said above, which is a SUPER common scifi trope for racism), and the fact that Abrams and Kasdan and Lucas have all SAID that they’re meant to be Nazi allegories, there’s the whole “Hux’s FO speech was meant to mirror the Nuremberg Rally, visually and in content” thing, and it succeeds.
Like, basically, Kylo’s parents both being played by Jewish actors – although Driver is not – and Leia and Han being Jewish-coded characters is PART OF Kylo’s characterization as a neo-Nazi. His internal struggle, the Light versus the Dark, his pain of being torn apart, is an extreme hatred of himself. A big part of his canonical anger at his parents is that they never told him that he was not actually genetically Alderaanian, but was raised that way anyway. It’s… like, it’s very much an intentional choice.
I agree with most of your posts, @jewish-mccoy, but you’re not correct on this hot take. Maybe stick to Star Trek meta?
Do y’all ever just chill the fuck out and enjoy something?… Like breathe it’s fiction.
idk can y’all ever shut the fuck up and recognize that fiction both reflects and shapes reality? and that sometimes that means to enjoy something, you have to have a viewpoint and be willing to criticize stuff you love?
@aimmyarrowshigh maybe get off your high horse, since you sent me multiple nasty asks
“A big part of his canonical anger at his parents is that they never told him that he was not actually genetically Alderaanian, but was raised that way anyway.”
This is, to put it simply, bullshit. Kylo canonically knew Anakin and Padmé were his biological grandparents, per Bloodline. He just didn’t know, along with the rest of the galaxy, that Anakin = Vader.
I’m not touching the rest of this with a ten-foot pole, but yeah. If a huge part of your argument relies on bullshit, let’s just say the rest of your argument isn’t going to hold up so great. @aimmyarrowshigh
@kylosky I have to assume you’re referring to (and misreading, or at least interpreting VERY differently) this passage from Chapter 13, which is the only one that mentions both “Anakin” and “Ben” –
Which, granted, I will give you COULD be read as “Ben will learn that Luke and Leia’s father was not only Anakin Skywalker, but also Darth Vader,” but does not say that. It can also be read the way I interpreted it, which was “your grandparents are Bail and Breha Organa of Alderaan [and Han’s parents, if he remembers them/tells Ben about them/etc] {and we’ll tell Ben about the adoption/birth situation/Vader all at a later date, when he’ll be able to understand it}.” For all we know from this passage, Ben assumes that Luke and Leia grew up together on Alderaan and has no idea that either were adopted in the first place. We don’t know whether Ben knows that Anakin Skywalker ever existed.
I’ll give you that the passage is more vague about it than I recalled while angrily writing about how it’s bullshit to say that Jewish artists (Abrams, Kasdan) don’t have the right to create overt neo-Nazi metaphors (which they themselves say are neo-Nazi metaphors) and have them be respected as such by the audience. The argument that only Germans from 1938-1945 can be called Nazis is bullshit and part of how the “alt-Right” goosestepped their way into the mainstream today. Call a spade a spade.
But anyway:
Leia, throughout Bloodline, as a central PART OF Bloodline, makes her identity still – 25 years later or whatever – about being the child of Bail Organa. NOT Anakin Skywalker. At the very end, because she is forced to by a political enemy, she admits to being Anakin|Vader’s daughter, but Bloodline makes it really, really clear that’s not how she sees herself, and it’s not how she would have raised Ben. Whether you’re right, and he knows he’s not GENETICALLY Alderaanian, or I’m right, and he doesn’t, does not matter as much as the fact that Leia raised him to understand the importance of Alderaan and the tragedy of its loss. Leia’s literal job is to remind the Galaxy of Alderaan through her (largely ceremonial) representation of their diasporic community in the New Republic Senate. You can’t seriously claim that Ben didn’t grow up knowing that his grandparents, for all intents and purposes, were Bail and Breha Organa, and that he came from an Alderaanian family.
Which is also a super Jewish POV! And which he also STILL intentionally threw away to join the First Order!
It does not ultimately change Ben’s choice to intentionally throw away the family he was raised with, his mother’s values and identity, and the importance of the people he was raised to help remember. ESPECIALLY SINCE PADME IS ALSO JEWISH, NOT THAT YOU CARE ABOUT ANY STAR WARS CHARACTER EXCEPT FANON BEN.
Ben was raised by the literal Galactic voice for the memory of Alderaan.
He knew he was Alderaanian.
He made the choice to shit on that legacy when he joined the First Order and become Kylo Ren.
Period.
Like, other than cherry-picking for mentions of Ben, did you… read Bloodline? Do you NOT give a shit about Leia and what Alderaan means to her and how it infused her life? And if so, do you REALLY think that wouldn’t make an impact on how she raised Ben? Leia and the story of Alderaan, especially her feelings towards Vader and the Empire and the First Order rising, are a DEEPLY Jewish story, ESPECIALLY in Bloodline. One of the best parts of the New EU is the way that it’s really brought out in the canon text how much the Alderaanian genocide mattered to Leia and how much she was affected by surviving it. To suggest that she wouldn’t have impressed on Ben how his real grandparents – because Bail and Breha were her real parents, biology or not – were the last Queen and Viceroy of Alderaan… is insane???
You don’t come from a family that survived a genocide by the slim margin of a single individual and NOT know about the family who died, and how they lived, and how you have a responsibility to live for them. Come on.
Ben, whether we agree that he knew about the adoption or not, KNEW what he was throwing away. He knew while watching the Hosnian Genocide what he was supporting. He had the choice to leave every day before the Hosnian Genocide and didn’t, and he had the choice to leave with Han. He chose the Dark.
EDIT: So according to Bloodline, Luke- and Leia’s official story is that they were war orphans, and there’s no clarification whether they acknowledged to Ben (or anyone besides Han) that they knew who their birth father was – Leia does say that “many” in the Galaxy know that Padme was their biological mother, but remember that during Padme’s life (and death) the identity of the father of her unborn child(ren) was a total secret.
But anyway, the entire argument really is “it’s not cool to tell Jewish artists that they can’t use metaphor to communicate their anti-Nazi messages or stories of intergenerational trauma and that if they use metaphor instead of exact realism, it doesn’t count and can’t be acknowledged as an intentional artistic choice.”
The criticism that Finnrey as a ship is just cute and fluffy with no tension is so comical to me because… did these people watch Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015 dir. J.J. Abrams)? The movie where Finn’s and Rey’s respective traumas clashed head on (”Come with me.”/”Don’t go.”), tearing apart two people who deeply care about each other? The movie where Finn bared his deepest truth to Rey, and Rey had a traumatic flashback from the distress of Finn leaving? Where he overcame his greatest fear to be there for her, which in turn helped her overcome her abandonment issues to seek her destiny?
You know, that movie?
What’s more, the reveals about the starting point of The Last Jedi indicate that Finn and Rey’s conflict from TFA is far from resolved. He still wants to get away from the fighting, this time with her, and she still has a reason to stay. Their argument back at Takodana was rudely interrupted in the previous movie, not properly ended. They went into crisis mode and reaffirmed their caring for each other before they were again rudely interrupted by Finn’s coma and galactic war. Ever since Takodana their story is basically an ongoing couple argument that they haven’t been able to end because inconsiderate masked villains and intrusive superweapons keep getting in the way.
One conflict Finn and Rey do not have is over mistreating each other and other people. That’s another misunderstanding of this ship, I believe, that meaningful conflict in a romantic relationship can only come from the parties treating each other badly or hurting others. That’s not true at all, though: Good people can still disagree in loving, thoughtful ways. Imagine that, a love story that does not depend on mistreatment as a sign of love or an obstacle to overcome; a love story that’s actually about love.
The crux of Finn and Rey’s ongoing conflict is that they’re each still trying to figure themselves out. Finn was raised to have absolute certainty and conviction which he abandoned. He is now left without a reason to fight, and wants space to find himself far away. Rey grew up unmoored, with no purpose other than survival and reunion. She is now seeking certainty, and her visions and dreams tell her she will find her place with Luke Skywalker. They’re each striving to grow into themselves after their difficult upbringings, and they see their paths in opposite directions.
The above would not even be a problem if Finn and Rey did not love each other so deeply. Young people, including people who dated, grow apart all the time and go their separate ways. It’s a part of life. But Finn and Rey want to be together despite their diverging paths, so much that that all Finn wanted to do was run away with Rey, so much that all Rey wanted was for Finn to stay with her.
This is the source of the conflict and suspense between Finn and Rey, that their love draws them together while their journeys pull them apart. This push and pull, wax and wane, rise and fall are at the center of their tension and shape the emotional landscape of the sequel trilogy. (Aficionados of Korean pop culture may also be familiar with the term milttang, the back-and-forth courting ritual that lends spice to romance.)
Finn and Rey are almost unbearably cute together, yes. They could have nothing but fluffy cuddly hours until the heat death of the universe and it would still not be enough. I’m not here to tell anyone what they should like about the ship or to police anyone’s fannishness.
I do, however, have a problem with dismissing the canon relationship of Finn and Rey as cute and fluffy and nothing more, and therefore dissatisfying as a central romance. They are cute, yes, thanks for admitting that, and they also have this incredible dynamic that was set up in TFA and is central to both their characters. It would be simple bad writing to set up such a meaty conflict and then ignore it as something just “cute” and “fluffy” that can be safely discarded.
There is nothing safe about Finn and Rey’s relationship, though. They both have so much riding on their love, forged in the warmth of companionship and the fires of adversity. It doesn’t matter how you define its nature; calling it a friendship or familial love does not make it any less central or important, and calling it a cliche romance with no depth does it a serious disservice.
Done right, Finn and Rey’s reunion will be an epic moment and a major milestone in their journeys, taken separately yet together. Theirs is the story of love between two heroes who have their own journeys without either being only the love interest for the other, which is both challenging and rewarding from a story standpoint. Will they grow apart or grow together? I eagerly await the answer.
Now the problem with a lot of Rey parentage theories is they can’t present a good reason why she would be on Jakku of all places. You know, the site of a battle and really just a really bad dead-end planet, worse than Tatooine, and even then Luke was left in the care of his aunt and uncle, not a scrapper like Unkar.
Well, there is one theory that answers that, and even hinges on it. Rey Palpatine. All because of Palpatine’s contingency plan.
So for those of you who don’t know Palpatine’s contingency plan, it is in the case of his and Vader’s death:
However, one thing is off about this plan. Palpatine believed in a Sith Empire as much as he believed in a Galactic Empire and well, Rax wasn’t force sensitive.
A scorched earth policy on several planets, called operation Cinder(you might know that from Battlefront 2)
A series of tests to gather the best and most loyal remaining members of empire led by an orphan on Jakku Palpatine groomed named Gallius Rax.
After choosing who is worthy out of the empire that failed their emperor, as much of the empire as possible should make a final stand on Jakku, an out of the way planet with a building called The Observatory on it. (There were several, but this one was important for the contingency) This building contained information about paths through the unknown regions and presumably instructions for creating the first order.
However, one thing is off about this plan. Palpatine believed in a Sith Empire as much as he believed in a Galactic Empire and well, Rax wasn’t force sensitive.
But what if there was a reason? What if Rax wasn’t his only heir? What if the Jakku Observatory contained more than unknown regions maps, a replica of the emperor’s yacht, and a Sith thingie to blow up Jakku. A child, created by the force, to be the heir of the Sith Empire.
The thing is, the contingency plan didn’t fully work. Rax was killed by Rae Sloane and she was the one who led the first order. And she didn’t know the whole plan. What if part of the plan was that there was a child, grown part through cloning tech, genetic manipulation, and force/Sith magic? Galius has hidden information in his POV before, so it makes sense to hide the existence of a Sith heir from the reader.
But how did Rey come into the possession of Unkar? Well, there were most likely many or at least a few stormtroopers and other low ranking imperials who survived Jakku and stopped fighting. Not every imperial was a zealot. We already saw this in the Poe Dameron comic with Terex and Corlac. And with both Ciena and Admiral Veriso calling an evacuation of their ships before crashing it, many escape pods could have landed all over Jakku. And that’s only counting the ships we know had time for people to get to.
And that’s who Rey’s “parents” are. They could have come from the Inflictor somewhere else, been stormtroopers or officers. That part doesn’t matter. What matters is that they shed their allegiance to the empire, were desperate, and were left on Jakku after the battle. Or they could have even been people who were already stranded on Jakku. Whomever they are, all that matters, is that years after the battle they found the Observatory.
And there they found Rey in stasis. They released her and since the child had no memories but a blank developed mind, she naturally bonded to her rescuers. Eventually, they reached Niima outpost and met Unkar. Desperate to get off planet, they traded their “child” and possibly some relics from the observatory to get off planet.*
Sounds a bit far-fetched? Well, if we use the criteria from MatPat’s Rey parents theory, I can answer each of them, most importantly the left on Jakku part. Those criteria were:
1. British/Core World accent 2. Strong connection to the force 3. Luke/Anakin’s lightsaber calling to her 4. Good piloting skills 5. Left on Jakku as a child 6. Thematic meaning/“It’s like poetry, it rhymes” In addition, I will also apply my theory to a few key scenes:
Kylo’s reaction when he first hears of her Rey’s flashback Kylo’s “you still want to kill me?” line Rey’s ability to use a mind trick untrained The Leia-Rey hug Some lines from trailers The Chosen One Prophecy
So let’s begin.
First the core world accent. A lot of people have used this as evidence for Rey Kenobi, however, accents are barely genetic. And a lot of people including Phasma and probably Tarkin changed their accents to seem more respected and from a core world(rather than post-apocalyptic and outer rim)
And strong connection to the force? Palpatine would have made his clone-child extremely powerful with the force, as powerful as he could make her. So that’s pretty much covered. Also, her main displays of force powers were from the dark side. The pushing back on Kylo’s mental connection and use of a mind trick were both motivated by fear. Being able to hold her own against Kylo could be the force assisting her via the dark side. And as we saw from Ezra in season 1 of Rebels, the dark side is much easier to call on than the light.
As for Anakin’s lightsaber calling for her, that doesn’t even have to do with familiar relation. The inquisitor’s kybers called to Ashoka and they most certainly aren’t related. And a green kyber crystal called to a random Tusken Raider when she was asked to steal it from the Jawa’s that sold R2. That was a really weird story and I wonder if it was setting something up, but it doesn’t matter. It’s canon. The kyber crystal in the saber or the force in general was calling Rey. Because it chose her. Because kyber crystals are basically wands from Harry Potter.
And her piloting skills? That could easily be explained by a combination of force boosted instincts/reaction time and well, practice. She did know all of that stuff from using an old flight simulator. And the point about piloting skills could be used just as well to make her the child of Thane as it points to Han or Luke on its own. There’s a lot of really exceptional pilots in the galaxy.
As for being left on Jakku, I guess I should explain the timeline better. According to the TFA script, she is 19 in 34 ABY(when the movie takes place). And she looks to be about 4 during the flashback scene of her being left with Unkar. At first, that doesn’t seem to add up, but Palpatine would have set his child into a non-aging stasis after they reached a reasonable age for starting dark side training and feeling into the Unknown Regions. If the Empire survived much longer than it did, the contingency plan using an adult with no memories would be weird. Heck, after reaching 4, she could have been moved to carbonite (do people age in carbonite? I’m not sure if that’s been answered. It’s not important). Terex and Corlac seem to have been on Jakku for a while, so Rey’s “parents” could also have, surviving as scavengers before finding the Observatory. This would also give enough time for the scavenging economy to get properly set up, as Niima Outpost was only founded after the battle of Jakku. 11 years would have been enough time that a low-quality ship from Unkar could actually be purchased.
And for thematic meaning. Well, we got that down. We got Kylo, the child of two rebellion war heroes, trained as a Jedi having turned to the dark side. And we have a child, who grew up in a situation even worse than Anakin, who was literally created to be the next emperor who chose the light. This would fit with Star War’s strong themes of personal choice and growing beyond heritage. It would also fit with the newer themes of the force not being so black and white.
And without the Aftermath series, Rey’s parentage could easily be explained as “Palpatine had a contingency plan that ended with a final battle on Jakku. The man the emperor choose to lead the soon to be first order died on Jakku and so the plan couldn’t probably be carried out. That including retreating to the unknown regions with a clone-child created by the force who would be raised to be the next emperor.”
And for readers of Aftermath, it would strengthen already existing parallels. Those between Rey and Gallius Rax. We got Rax, who even before being groomed by Palpatine was very cruel and did what he had to for survival on Jakku. And then Rey, who is basically the child of evil, who remained kind in a cruel environment. And then both of them ended up on ships off Jakku and were found by their original owners (Han and Palpatine). Upon finding the orphans, both owners preformed mentor like roles. The ships also brought them into the organization they would become a vital member of. Rey also didn’t want to leave Jakku, while that was one of Rax’s only wishes. And for Rax, well the desert planet became his grave.
Now that we got all of those points squared away, what about those scenes I promised to explain?
Alright, let’s start with when Kylo first finds out about Rey. As MatPat pointed out, his reaction is much too violent for having never heard of Rey. Well since Palpatine was in magic sith force communication to what we can assume to be Snoke, it is possible Snoke knew of the contingency plan, including of Rey.
Later when Kylo joined the First Order, he would have been informed of the failure to properly carry out the plan. Of course as far as they knew, Rey would still be stuck in the Observatory in stasis and not worth extracting.
As for Rey’s flashback, a lot of the scenes she saw would have came from the force or from reading the history of the object, but even that is indicative of powerful force abilities. However, the scene we know is either memory brought to the surface or unlocked by the sequence is when Rey has just been sold to Unkar in exchange for a ship, the very one we see flying off. The imperials would have been the only humanoids and comfort she would have known at this point, explaining her reaction to being abandoned even if they were ambivalent to her. The reason Rey thinks they are her parents is because that was probably the lie they told Unkar to explain where they obtained a literal child, or what Unkar told her. To the scrapper, they seemed as people so desperate to leave after the battle, they would sell their child.
As for Kylo’s line “you still want to kill me” witch MatPat took to mean Kylo knew Rey from before, there’s another way to read this line that supports my theory. The “still” part refers to their encounter on Takodona, when Rey tried to shoot him. Because he knows or suspects Rey is Palpatine’s heir he expects it to be easy to turn her to the dark side. This is also why he says she needs a teacher, because he sees her as similar to him, the descendant of a Sith Lord.
As for the mind trick, my other points about Rey’s artificially created power stands, but I feel like I should specifically address this. Palpatine was extremely adept with mind tricks. In Lords of the Sith, he manages to control a Twi’lek child so well she would stand there as Palpatine and Vader argued over killing her, their lightsabers in front of her face. This pales in comparison to the suggestion Rey manages to pull of in a moment of extreme stress and fear. And since Rey was only supposed to be awakened after his death, the emperor wouldn’t mind making her more powerful than him if she was fully trained.
As for the Rey Leia hug, I don’t have that good of an explanation, but neither do Rey Solo-Organa theorists. You’re not going to be able to recognize someone you only knew as a child a minimum of 20 years ago as a child. All I could think of is that since Leia’s untrained force skill (Ashoka book tells us every untrained force sensitive has one skill their sensitivity manifests as) is sensing (sensed Luke hanging from cloud city and Han’s death) is that she could sense the dark side coming off of Rey and from knowing Chewie isn’t a fan of being comforted, she decided that Rey was the one who need comforting. And the aura of darkness coming from Rey would be part her predisposition and part the anger and rage towards Kylo for killing Han and possibly Finn.
Ok now how about some lines from the trailers? Well first we got Luke’s “I’ve see this raw strength only once before” line is most likely about Kylo, however it is referring to Rey because she’s so damn strong with the force. Don’t forget the trailer has a scene where she cracks open the ground, to Luke’s shock and horror. As for Snoke saying “Fulfil your destiny” that’s probably to Rey, and under this theory, it’s because he still sees her as meant to join the dark side, because that’s what she was created for.
Alright, now for chosen one stuff. Well we know 2 things about the prophecy: 1. The chosen one is created through the force (technically midichlorians but it’s better if we all forget those exist) and 2. Will bring balance to the force. Now with the new narrative angle about the balance of the force being much more literal, with things like Bendu, Rey reaching out for “something else” may signify she is the chosen one. Of course that’s if the prophecy is real. And if you follow the theory that it was by force magic that Anakin was created by Palpatine, it just means it’s possible for Palpatine to make another force child. And with an increase access to lore after becoming emperor it’s reasonable he could create a force child with no human parent at all.
I hope this theory actually makes internal sense and there’s no thing from the eu that could ruin this theory. Or maybe there’s something that could enhance it. All I could think that I haven’t read that could apply is Rey’s Survival Guide, the full tfa novelization, and the visual dictionary for Tfa. Thanks to @lj-writes for checking this theory before I posted it and pointing out the script says Rey is 19. I guess we’ll find out if this works or not on the 15th
*@lj-writes also states that it might not be possible for a ship to be purchased with a child and some scrap, especially since Unkar wouldn’t see the value of sith artifacts. She states that it is possible that the “parents” sold Rey as “look at this child we found in the observatory, she’s probably magic or something.” And then when Rey didn’t show an obvious signs of power, she was put to work as a scavenger. Unkar simply hasn’t told Rey because he’s too embarrassed at seemingly being conned, so Rey simply thinks they’re her biological parents and left her.
I like this! It’s strikes a good balance of acknowledging Leia’s faults and possible mistakes while emphasizing that Kylo is firmly responsible for his own actions–and in fact would be boring as hell if he weren’t.
On Kylo Ren and Leia’s confrontation, though, you seem to contradict yourself: on the one hand, that Rian changed nothing from a story where Leia was supposed to wrap up her arc in the next movie, and on the other that they would have found some way to wrap up Leia’s arc by including the confrontation. The first statement seems to indicate the confrontation was left to Episode IX (and thus will never happen), while the second assertion is that the confrontation will come in TLJ. What am I missing here?
You’re not missing anything; I ran into that same problem and I’m not sure how Lucasfilm is going to handle it.
On the one hand, Lucasfilm has made it very clear that Leia had a big part in IX, and her death totally derailed that plan. It’s hard to imagine those big plans as being anything but having to do with Kylo Ren and the final confrontation between them. And Rian has been equally adamant that he hasn’t changed a thing about Carrie’s performance.
On the other hand, Leia’s arc literally can’t be resolved without confronting her son, and it makes it really hard to resolve Kylo’s arc without that same confrontation. And it’s possible I’ve misinterpreted Rian’s remarks: he does just say that he didn’t change her performance; that doesn’t mean he didn’t include certain scenes or exclude other ones in order to force or create a confrontation that wasn’t there originally. And maybe he didn’t have to do even that; it’s possible that Leia and Kylo’s final confrontation was always a part of this movie (we know that Leia training Poe as a replacement was always a part of it, so it’s not impossible) and Lucasfilm’s big plans for IX were something else. I haven’t the faintest idea what that’d be, but I’m not nearly as omniscient as I like to pretend I am.
My best guess? Some more minor confrontation was bumped up through clever editing in order to give Leia and Kylo some closure. Not serious enough to change Carrie’s performance, you understand, but enough to give it the emotional weight it needs to resolve Leia’s arc.
I think that’s a good way to resolve the quardary, since editing can completely change the end product. I just hope it does the end of Leia’s story justice, and that Episode IX gives her a suitable send-off. ;_;
L.J.'s Obsessions 