The truly sad thing is, Finn spending TLJ in a coma could actually have been brilliant–but ONLY IF it the story had taken care to involve and center him. Obviously not in the way RJ described it in his tasteless joke, with Finn being inert and unimportant while only getting occasional cuts of him stirring in his sleep. That’s not just bad, that’s positively malicious (as much of the movie was tbh). But if the plot had involved Finn heavily, and the coma had been used as an actual opportunity to explore his story and the setting? In that case it would have been better than what we got in TLJ.

Consider: Finn is so seriously injured that he doesn’t wake for most of the movie’s runtime, and due to the haphazard circumstances of the evacuation the Resistance were not able to bring all the necessary equipment and medicine. On top of that they are under constant bombardment and the infirmary is flooded with patients, further complicating his recovery. This would emphasize the gravity of what Kylo Ren did to Finn while showing that the First Order is a direct threat to Finn as well as the Resistance as a whole.

Snoke berates Kylo not only for losing to Rey and being so conflicted over murdering Han Solo, but also for failing to kill Finn. Hux and Snoke are both extremely threatened by Finn’s defection, and Phasma reports unrest in the ranks for which she executed and reconditioned a number of troopers. Snoke makes it clear that he is chasing the Resistance’s main fleet so doggedly in large part because he wants to make sure Finn is dead, or better yet, to drag him before the assembled troopers and make an example of him. This further establishes the FO’s evil and heightens the sense of suspense because Finn is a character that the audience actually cares about, not a nameless extra like many of the Resistance members we saw die on screen.

Rey is worried about Finn and keeps trying to contact the Resistance. When the Force Skype happens she is angry with Kylo over Finn’s injury as well as Han’s murder. Kylo manipulates her in large part by telling her about the Resistance’s plight and the personal danger to Finn–and he insinuates, or lets her believe, that he would let the Resistance go and spare Finn’s life.

We continue the bond between Finn and Poe by having Poe go on the Canto Bight mission (or some better mission that makes more sense, getting help from Lando?), and Rose going with him because she is deeply affected by Finn’s heroism.

Most crucially, however, Finn’s coma is not just about him lying there but is an exploration of his past and trauma, even his connection with the Force. We see some of the Before the Awakening materials where he is an elite cadet whose only flaw is too much empathy. We get to see his relationship with a living Slip, his other squadmates, and Phasma. (Give Phasma more to do, you cowards.) This would parallel and contrast the exploration of Kylo’s past, continuing the foil relationship. Finn was already a cadet when Kylo Ren formally joined the FO, and this
intersection in their stories would have been interesting to explore.

We see glimpses of Finn’s traumatic kidnapping as a child, something that distresses him so much that it registers on the medical monitors. Finn also relives the massacre of Hosnia and many other things he wasn’t physically present for, including present events, though he is only able to affect things in small snatches such as shouting a warning to Poe at a crucial moment which Poe actually hears.

Finally, on Crait, Finn’s Force projection grows strong enough that he helps provide the crucial clue for getting out of the mines, and he leads Rey to the back entrance. Even Chewie sees him by this point and roars out a greeting. She is overjoyed at the connection with Finn and is happy and confident when she lifts the rocks, in direct contrast to her tension and sadness when talking to Kylo.

Finn finally wakes, Sleeping Beauty style, on the Millennium Falcon with Rey by his side and stroking his hand. They have a joyful reunion and everyone on board celebrates this flash of hope among the darkness, making the hopeful ending seem actually deserved.

Lesson: You can keep a character in a coma for a whole movie and still advance his story as long as you give half a shit about him. It’s telling that RJ’s treatment of Finn was so reluctant and half-assed that it was fully possible to tell a better story based on a throwaway joke of an idea.

Luke wasn’t completely wrong to spare Kyle? What. Thanks to TLJ and Johnson, Luke Was A Dick is pretty much the only concrete reason offered by the ST movies as to why Kyle is the way that he is. There’s nothing else. Almost nobody reads the goddamn novels, Snoke abusing Kyle Ben is not a thing with general audience. Luke’s shouldering the whole blame (thank’s sfm, RJ).

jewishcomeradebot:

lj-writes:

It really should take only half a second of critical thinking to realize that Luke couldn’t have made Kylo evil–that Kylo was already consumed by it when Luke looked into his mind. Kylo then slaughtered Luke’s students and took his already-turned friends in what was clearly a premeditated attack. JJ had better make that clear in IX.

I think JJ will. Plus I can see a way he can make it reasonable that neither Luke nor Rey killed him without turning him good or, like Gollum, save the story, detracting from the heroes. (Yes I always hated the ending of LotR, it’s cheap imo.)

Anyway.

Here’s how: Mark likened the whole thing to the theoretical question, “if you could go back in time and kill baby Hitler, would you?”.

But to Jews that was always a nonsense question.

Why? Because it wouldn’t have made one lick of difference, WWII would still have happened, the Holocaust would still have happened. Because Hitler was only one guy, he alone caused NOTHING to happen. The forces that made the Nazis try to exterminate Jews and Romani people, with the applause of most of Europe and the rest of the world, was already moving. It would all have happened anyway. And with someone more competent than Hitler possibly have been much, much worse.

So why didn’t Luke kill Ben? Because he realized that it wouldn’t make a lick of difference to what was going to happen. Heck it’s not even sure that his school and the rest of the students would have survived even if he hadn’t done that lightsaber check next to his nephew. Because Kylo/Ben is just one man. Even if removed, he’d still have his hangers on that could act without him and it looked like was ready to.

And in the longer term, what then? Remove Kylo and what happens? The exact same damn thing. Because Snoke still exists, Hux still exists, Starkiller Base is already being build and will be completed, the whole of the First Order is already on the rise and the Republic will do nothing.

Kylo or no Kylo, it changes nothing, this goes far beyond just one man. Only difference is that Snoke might have found a different apprentice, possibly one who’s more competent and less self-absorbed and arrogant, and everything would then have been so much worse. The story, our story, could have been over before it even started.

And again in TLJ. Even if we take the nonsense reason that the novel supplies for Rey not killing Kylo on face value and JJ decides to go with that.

Again it wouldn’t make any difference. Only change is that someone else, possibly a more competent commander would take the reigns of the First Order. Hux might be a conservative and unimaginative by-the-book commander who’s very bad at dealing with unconventional tactics and innovative strategies, but at least he knows the book. Kylo on the other hand is a lets-antagonize-all-of-Europe-and-then-invade-Russia-in-winter style of commander.

Yes the Force still needs him, because his lack of competence gives the Resistance and the Light side a chance that would be snuffed out with a more competent guy at the helm.

People – and by people I mean goydje – forget that the Nazis were largely incompetent and that neo-Nazis are really no better. What made and makes them so terrifying isn’t that they’re competent, but that the could do what they did because the majority of people in Europe agreed wholeheartedly with their agenda. They only opposed it when they too became a target.

Which is really no different from what has been happening in a Galaxy Far Far Away. On the whole, no one gave a shit about the genocides and general abuses the First Order were committing as long as they themselves were not its target, a lot even supported it. And now everyone has to deal with that.

Am I the only one who liked the LotR climax 😂 Also omg the Hitler comparison! Kylo does remind me of him, especially the dramatization in the 2004 film Untergang. And that’s not a commentary on mental illness; Hitler’s evil was not caused by mental illness (link if anyone wants support for the obvious, some ableism at link). Rather, the behavioral similarities arise from their shared sense of entitlement and their fundamental dishonesty about the world.

You’re right, if Luke had killed Kylo someone else would have been Snoke’s apprentice, likely one of Kylo’s school buddies. And look, no one’s going to convince me Kylo was the sharpest knife in any drawer. I can easily believe, however, that he was the most powerful Force user and the most violent in action and temper. If his interactions with Hux are any indication, Kylo became the ringleader of their group by choking and intimidating the hell out of any dissent. I bet there is or was a far smarter Knight of Ren who was either forced to fall in line or was killed by Kylo. If Luke had killed Kylo that person would have been the Master of the Knights of Ren and a far more dangerous foe.

Worse, Luke would have been vilified as a murderer who killed his young nephew in his sleep while Kylo would have become a junior martyr alongside Vader. The aforementioned smarter Knight would have been savvy enough to effectively use the memory of the hated dead asshole.

If Rey had killed Kylo Ren, Hux would have laughed his ass off to find his job done for him. The FO would have gone away and regrouped, likely with Hux at their head, with Ren again a martyr before he could expose himself very publicly on Crait for the ridiculous flop he was. And Ren will continue to flub and make mistakes and throw embarrassing tantrums because, again, he is self-entitled and dishonest.

Kylo Ren is not a Dark Side villain

I’ve started to think the real conflict in the sequel trilogy might actually not be between the Light and Dark Sides of the Force. The former can be immoral and the latter can be moral, after all.

Pacifism in the face of injustice can be irresponsible cowardice, which is why people have criticized the “That’s how we win” line. Rationality in the face of others’ pain can be dismissive and callous, as we saw with Yoda toward Anakin.

On the other hand, violence to fight unjust violence is moral. That’s the entire foundation of the Rebellion and later Resistance. Anger and pain in the face of oppression, suffering with those who suffer, can be compassion.

No, I now think the real conflict in the sequel trilogy is between elitism and egalitarianism. Think about it. JJ has said that it’s very deliberate that Finn and Rey don’t have last names. We thought it was because they would get big reveals later on (or at least fandom, including me, thought that was true of Rey), but what if he meant something else entirely?

The third main hero in the new movies is Poe, who has a last name and known family but who was at best solidly midle class his whole life. In TLJ we got Rose, whose homeworld was destroyed by the First Order.

These heroes are arrayed against Kylo Ren, a son and nephew of famous heroes and a genetically powerful Force user, who had every advantage growing up and every reason to be the greatest force for good the galaxy had seen.

In a way, being told he is the ultimate good may be the very reason he went so very wrong. Kylo’s actor Adam Driver has said that Kylo has absolute conviction that he is right and that he is an elitist. What would that do to a person’s morality if he is told, implicitly or explicitly, that he can do no wrong by virtue of being a good guy and that he is a cut above everyone else?

Maybe this is why many people are still flummoxed by Kylo Ren’s character and insist that his motivations are lacking, that he is incomprehensible. Our template of the main antagonist in Star Wars is Darth Vader, who was indeed a Dark Side villain whose passion and fear ran amok, motivating him to murder and destruction. That’s why fans read abuse, brainwashing, or the loss of a loved one into Kylo Ren’s character, so we can fit him in the mold of the Dark Side.

But what if there is no Dark Side to be read into his character? What if there was no anger, fear, or loss that motivated him, at least not from legitimate loss or pain?

What if Kylo Ren’s brand of evil is far more mundane: Self-righteousness and arrogance?

In this frame, we can see why Rey misjudged him in The Last Jedi. Like the fandom, she thought Kylo Ren was driven by suffering and could be reached by a hand of friendship and understanding, like Luke had reached Vader. She learned to her surprise that Kylo didn’t hate the father he murdered, which should have made her rethink her approach. Luke himself who knew both Kylo and Vader warned her that she was dangerously misreading the situation.

And when Rey forgave Kylo Ren the pain he caused her, believed in him, stood by his side, and fought by his side–it had no effect on him at all. He had plenty of people believe in him, love him, and even forgive him after he did the unforgivable. That wasn’t what was wrong with him. It wasn’t the Dark Side that made him evil.

Rather he believed he was he ultimate good, that destroying the galaxy and remaking it in his image was the right thing to do. He thought Rey was nothing and had no place in the story because of her unremarkable birth, and only through him could she find meaning and worth.

The real evil in the sequel trilogy isn’t lashing out in hatred and suffering. It’s the belief that you are better than everyone else and are entitled to use others as a means to your ends. Such a belief may lead to suffering, such as rage at the fact that people aren’t treating you with the deference you believe you are due, but in that case you are not evil because you suffer; rather, your suffering stems from your evil belief.

This is the kind of evil the heroes of the sequel trilogy are standing against, and that their backgrounds and choices refute. Finn was kidnapped and enslaved to be a means for the glory of his leaders like Kylo, but he refused the role. He asserted his own individuality and self-worth and wanted to run far away from the First Order before he decided to fight with the Resistance.

Rey grew up in deprivation but never gave up hope, always longing for people who would love her and with whom she had a place. She projected her own pain onto Kylo, and that very nearly became her downfall.

Poe, like Kylo, was raised as one of the “good guys.” Unlike Kylo, however, he always remained open to questioning himself and whether he was doing the right thing. When he saw evidence of First Order activity as a Republic pilot, he didn’t dismiss it because he thought the Republic was always right. Instead he changed his entire life, leaving behind stability and certainty, to do the right thing. When a Stormtrooper offered to rescue him, Poe believed him and became his friend. In TLJ, though the execution was somewhat muddled, he again showed the humility to question his assumptions and admit when others were right.

Rose, like Finn, was one of the people Kylo deemed inferior and expendable. Like Finn she rejected that to fight back, and like Rey she knows she is more than her birth. Like Poe she showed a willingness to admit when she was wrong and to change her views.

These are the democratic and egalitarian heroes who will fight Kylo Ren despite the odds, who respond to his terrifyingly egocentric worldview with a resounding “no.” No, we are not fodder for your ambitions. No, we do not accept that we are less. No, the greater good is not in some Übermensch because good and evil lie in choices, not individuals or sides. No, we will not bow to you. No, we will not let you continue on this path of destruction. No. No. NO.

Kylo Ren is not evil because he is on the Dark Side of the Force, but because he believes himself to be the absolute good and the ultimate worth due to who he is. It is why he is a villain for our times and why he must be defeated by our heroes.

themandalorianwolf:

What if Rey doesn’t want to be a Jedi after the war?

Unlike Anakin, who was escaping a life of slavery, and Luke, who literally was escaping the Empire and life as a farmer, Rey only wanted her family and to be happy with her life. What if being a Jedi isn’t what Rey wants? Yes, she wanted to understand what the force was and she wants to end the war, but none of that actually has to do with her future or what she specifically wants for herself.

What if after the dust clears and the New Republic is stable again, Rey leaves the future of the Jedi in the hands of Finn, if he’s confirmed to be force sensitive finally, or maybe Luke, if he’s alive, or anyone force sensitive like Ahsoka or Ezra, if they’re alive. Long story short, what if Rey decides that being a Jedi, isn’t for her.

Maybe Rey decides that instead of becoming a warrior, she wants to help people in another way.

Maybe Rey works her ass off and manages to become a Senator for Jakku, and persuades the New Republic fo accept the Desert planet as part of it.

Rey knows what it’s like to live on a horrible Outer Rim World and fights to start getting these forgotten worlds the help they need. Regardless of if Rey is a Skywalker or a random, maybe she can finally find some peace and happiness outside of battle.

I like the idea of Rey going on to start the Jedi Order again, but I like the fact of Rey also getting to walk away from war for good if that’s what she wants.

Think back on how much suffering Anakin and Luke went through… maybe for once, Rey can be the Jedi who walks away, but not to the dark side, or because she was exiled, but just because for the first time ever, Rey wants to live her own life.

Maybe she’ll become Chancellor one day, or maybe she will just stay as senator, helping out the worlds that she can, and then retire one day and live out her years with her family and loved ones. I don’t know, It’s a thought.

This. Let Rey be defined by what SHE wants, not what others demand of her because of her power.

It really is time for the Jedi to end

Morality, Trust, and the Force–toward a new model of Force instruction

What went so fatally wrong with the Jedi Order?

It’s a recurring and fundamental question. Through the prequel, original, and now sequel trilogies we’ve watched the Jedi Order fall, rise, and then fall again. Unless they can end this cycle the end of Episode IX won’t be an end, but rather a prelude to a new tragedy.

I believe the old Jedi Order’s reliance on inborn Force power became warped into blood worship in Luke’s new Jedi Order, and Kylo Ren was a product of this repugnant and ahistorical belief. To overcome the mistakes of the old and new Orders, a new model of Force instruction must arise: One that does not rely on inborn talent and certainly not on the nonsensical idea that a lineage confers a special destiny or rights. Rather the new model must recognize and nurture the Force powers inherent in everyone, and instruction itself should be a horizontal process where the students teach each other.

Below I will lay out these ideas in more detail. First I will explain the progression from the old Jedi Order to the new one, and how discontinuity in history led to Luke’s mistakes and Kylo Ren. Then I will lay out the new model that I believe must take the Jedi’s place in order to prevent new Kylo Rens from arising, or at least minimize their damage, while also avoiding the mistakes of the old Jedi Order.

The Old Jedi Order: Meritocracy and forced obedience

We know quite a few details about the workings of the old Jedi Order prior to Order 66 and the fall of the Order. When it comes to selecting and instructing students for the way of the Jedi, they followed two main tenets:

First, select naturally strong Force users.

Second, induct them young before they form lasting attachments with family.

Jedi in the old Order, in other words, were skewed toward individuals with strong and inborn Force powers that manifested young. In order to ensure that these unusually talented people would not go astray and turn to the Dark Side of the Force, they were taken young enough that the attachments they would have formed with their families could be transferred to the Jedi Order–more specifically, the padawan’s own Master–the better to make them obedient to the Order’s will. The First Order would later on explicitly copy the second part of this model for their Stormtrooper program.

The most obvious failure of this model is the case of Anakin Skywalker, who failed the secod test and ordinarily would not have been made a Jedi. Some might even use his case to argue that the fault was not in the Jedi model itself but in the deviation from it.

The failure of the Jedi, however, was much more profound than the individual case of Anakin. The problems of the Republic and the Jedi preceded Anakin and were bigger than him, and the Jedi were complacent in these problems including the militarization of the Republic and the decline of its democracy. They did nothing about the plight of enslaved persons like Shmi, and they actively led the armies of clones created and enslaved for war.

The Jedi Order model worked for its intended purposes. In fact, it worked too well. It had become an entire order of powerful beings who were discouraged from independent thinking, who participated in and amplified the injustices of the Republic. Palpatine and Anakin may have ended the Republic and the Jedi, but they were able to do so because of the deeper failures of both institutions.

The New Jedi Order: Blood supremacy without safeguards

Though we do not have many details about Luke’s new Jedi order, we probably saw the beginning of his instruction methods with Obi-Wan Kenobi’s and Yoda’s teaching of Luke himself. The second part of the old Jedi Order’s selection model was no longer workable at this point, with the tattered remainders of the Jedi being in no shape to take in children and raise them to be Jedi.

Both Kenobi and Yoda were products of the old Jedi Order, however, and they still hung on to the first part of the model: the selection of Jedi for powerful inborn talent. Because they were unable to roam the galaxy looking for child talent, hunted as they were, they used the novel method of relying on a known Force bloodline–Anakin’s own children. They pinned their hopes on Luke and, should he fail, Leia, because they were out of options and certainly not because it was the traditional Jedi way. Out of these circumstances was born a pernicious belief that poisoned the future of the Jedi and brought about its destruction yet again.

Though we do not know much about Luke’s own Jedi school, Luke is likely to have applied the teachings he received to his own students. He probably did not put much stock in starting Force instruction young, having started training as an adult himself. One thing he did seem to have believed in, however, was the power of the Skywalker bloodline, in a jarring line from The Last Jedi:

My nephew with that mighty Skywalker blood. In my hubris, I thought I could train him; I could pass on my strengths.

As many have pointed out, this is a blatantly ahistorical vision of both the Jedi Order and the Skywalker line. The Jedi Order never selected candidates by lineage, but by individual merit. There was no mighty Skywalker blood, a family whose matriarch was an enslaved woman who lived and died on a backwater planet.

Is it so implausible that Luke himself at this time believed this manufactured myth, though? Kenobi and Yoda had died before they could teach him the full history of the old Order, and even if they spoke to him afterward I doubt they were completely candid about its failures. The fable about Skywalker blood was Luke’s own story of involvement with the Jedi Order, and one of the few things he knew–or thought he knew–about the Jedi. Kenobi and Yoda’s desperate plan may well have turned into a Skywalker myth in a universe where history itself was irreparably broken from massacres, terrors, purges, and outright rewritten pasts. The Empire’s own fixation with supermen and heritage may have been an influence as well, since Luke after all was a good citizen of the Empire for twenty years before he turned rebel.

So not only was the old Jedi’s belief in inborn meritocracy continued in Luke’s Jedi order, it took on an unbelievably more sinister form with the added layer of the Skywalker myth and all it implied–that certain bloodlines and people from those lines were special and were destined to save the universe. The proof was in recent history, after all, with three people who were born into or married into that line having freshly saved the galaxy.

Now imagine what this ahistorical yet powerful belief had on the mind of young Ben Organa-Solo. Imagine what it’s like to believe that you are born to a holy line and are destined to save the universe. All it would take is a little bit of entitlement, a little bit of arrogance, a little bit of narcissism. Combine these with your considerable personal power and the privilege you enjoyed your entire life, a welcome word whispered in your ear about how special and exalted you are, and there would be nothing to stop you from believing that you are, indeed, destined to be a god. Your power and desires are paramount values and the lives of lesser beings are nothing but kindling for your ambitions. There will always be some conflict because your parents and their friends loved you and taught you better than this, but these petty concerns of morality are fetters meant for lesser beings, bonds that you must break on your triumphant way toward your manifest destiny.

The stirrings of Kylo Ren were growing in the belly of Luke’s new Jedi Order, spreading to other students in what would become the core of the future Knights of Ren. Without even the weak and imperfect bonds that tied the Jedi to the old Order, there was nothing to restrain this new faction that would bring a new whirlwind of destruction. Luke was very right to see that the practice of taking children from their families was morally repugnant and ultimately futile. The problem was that he had failed to recognize the real need that had given rise to that practice, and had come up with nothing to take its place. His imperfect instruction in the ways of the Jedi, and more importantly its failures, had taken its toll and brought about tragedy and new war.

Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.
It’s the only way to become what you’re meant to be.

Kylo Ren wasn’t entirely wrong when he said all the old edifices had to be destroyed. He is completely wrong about both the means and the endpoint, of course. The way to overcome the mistakes of the past is not to build an empire on a mountain of corpses, which is just a repeat of yet more crimes from the past. Rather, the way forward is to create something new that refutes the wrong beliefs that led to these mistakes in the first place.

So what is the way forward? If the Jedi must end, what should take its place?

A new model of Force instruction: Morality and democracy

What really needs to end is not the idea of Force instruction per se, but the whole idea of inborn Force meritocracy. Why not flip the whole idea of the Jedi on its head? They don’t have to be people with some special inborn talent. They most certainly don’t have to be from some special bloodline, which as explained above was never true of the Jedi in the first place.

If the Force is truly in everyone, there’s no need to select people for their power in the Force and then either try to restrain them (the old Jedi) or fail to restrain them (Luke’s new Jedi). Why not take on people who don’t need restraint in the first place, who don’t need to be treated like bombs about to go off?

Why not, in other words, take on already trustworthy people regardless of their level of Force powers, and instruct them in the ways of the Force?

The belief that only a select few people with special inborn powers can handle the Force has failed miserably and multiple times. It is irrational to keep trying the same thing when it plainly doesn’t work and has never worked.

What’s more, the method of Force instruction doesn’t have to be a vertical master-apprentice relationship, and there is no one left to be a Jedi Master anyway with most of them dead and Kylo Ren and the Knights of Ren emphatically disinvited from all study sessions. Rather than Jedi academies the new model of Force instruction would be more like Jedi study groups, out of sheer necessity if nothing else. Obedience to the Order will no longer be a virtue. The new Jedi will have to seek a way forward together, seeking the meaning of the Force and the ethics of using it.

Yes, the individual users might not be as powerful as those of the old Jedi and Luke’s new Jedi. Classically powerful Force users like Rey would still have a place and play a major role, though. What’s more, there would be many more Force users of more diverse powers to meet potential evil Force users and other threats. If @themandalorianwolf‘s theory that Finn is a wound in the Force who awakens other Force users is true (link), more characters could awaken to their Force powers.

In sum, the Jedi model of meritocracy has been an unqualified failure and it is well past time to try something new. A new, democratic model of Force instruction would be a way to move toward a new future instead of repeating the mistakes of the past.

I think the reason Palpatine just wanting power doesn’t bug me is that I never saw any reason why he shouldn’t. But Kylo being the way he is either feels inorganic to his background, or is an indictment of Leia’s and Han’s parenting skills that just feels like one more ST fuck-you to the original cast. No character trait comes from nowhere, and a reason that even people who want Kylo to stay a villain might be unsatisfied is that we want to see how Leia and Han failed.

I mean there is definitely the fuck-you angle so I can understand why a lot of OT fans don’t like the ST. On the other hand, I can see how Kylo got there and I don’t think it needs additional explication. Here’s a guy who was told implicitly his entire life that a) he is born to save the universe and b) he is special. It doesn’t matter if that’s not what Leia or Han thought or what they consciously instilled into him, these two tenets were baked into the narrative of his life. Put a) and b) together, sprinkle in a few wrong choices and add someone (Snoke) who told him what he wanted to hear encouraging his mushrooming narcissism. Stir, shake, and you get the belief that he is entitled to shape the universe however he sees fit.

This is exactly why I believe that not only should the Skywalkers die out, or at least the idea of them as a special anointed dynasty (which was always more fanon than canon anyway), Luke was halfway onto the right idea and the Jedi as we know it do need to end. Rather, Force instruction should change radically to bring out the Force inherent in everyone, not select for genetic superhumans which is a system that just begs for another Palpatine, Vader, or Kylo Ren. That’s what my Force-Sensitive Five post at heart was about (link), and that’s the direction I hope the franchise is going. It would go a long way toward making SW more palatable and any victory in Episode IX a lasting thing.

jewishcomeradebot:

bazed-andconfused:

kyberfox:

It makes no narrative sense in TFA to let Finn ever have the lightsaber unless he was meant to be a Jedi as well.

Why? Because it is only given to him after Rey has her Force vision, we – the audience – already know she has the Force at this point so pulling in a second character – Finn – makes no narrative sense unless he was meant to be a Jedi as well.

It makes even less sense for Maz to tell him to fight with it as he had a blaster rifle moments before this sequence, so he did have a weapon but the story strips it from him without any explanation to give him the lightsaber. A Jedi’s weapon.

So all marketing aside. It makes no sense in the story for Finn to fight with the lightsaber, to purposefully be given it, if he was never intended for the Jedi’s or a Force users, path.

Another thing is when Maz gives Finn the lightsaber she does not tell him what to do with it, such as give it to Rey or Luke or whatever, she simply gives it to him

Exactly!

When Maz hands the lightsaber to Finn she says, “Take this, find your friend”. Find your friend and what? Protect her with it? Give it to her?

Again this happens after the Force back, so there’s no narrative value in the ambiguity if Finn doesn’t also have the Force. It would have taken JJ nothing to have the line go “Take this, find your friend and give it to her” if that was what was the intention the whole time, because the mystery of Rey’s Force sensitivity is pretty much already resolved for all but the densest of the audience.

So to all that goes “well it’s the marketing’s fault everyone thinks Finn has the Force when he doesn’t”. No, it isn’t. Sure it isn’t helping, but this is 100% the story’s responsibility, if Finn wasn’t intended as a Jedi this narrative misleading is completely and utterly pointless and downright cruel.

themandalorianwolf:

It’s okay to still believe in Force User Finn and Rey Skywalker

People never had a problem with Leia being a Skywalker because she wasn’t the lead, she didn’t recognize her as one, and she never held a lightsaber in the movies. That’s not case with Rey.

People never had a problem when Mace Windu being a black Jedi because he was a supporting character, he was in the background, and he wasn’t one of the new faces of Star Wars.

Finn being a force user wasn’t some affirmative action, social justice warrior, escapist crack Theory. It was literally just watching Finn go through the traditional hero’s journey, only with a modern theme and TFA doesn’t imply it, doesn’t hint at it, but it freaking screams in your ear while dangling Finn holding a lightsaber that this dude is a force user. Being a force user doesn’t erase his 20 years of enslavement as a forced Stormtrooper or his deflection. The Force doesn’t have a color or gender it belongs to everyone, no matter what Karen or Brett say. The Force has been used by Lazy muppet people and literal fascist murders, nothing is exclusive about the force. It wouldn’t ruin Finn’s character at all and the arguments against it are bias.

Rey being a Skywalker wasn’t about some blood purity, keeping it all traditional, Mary Sue self insert bs. It’s literally just drawing the logical conclusion as to why this random woman keeps getting shoved into the middle of this one family and keeps being involved with mysteriously vague scenes that connect her mysterious part further to this family‘s past. The Skywalkers are literally born from slaves and farmers, and this powerful legacy stuff is made up bulk shit. The Skywalkers are literally only know for being a slaves, farmers, hermits, and a fascist. Rey being a Skywalker isn’t a gift or a curse, it’s just giving her a family that loves her but she was taken away from.

And nobody is saying these things have to happen, but the general argument everyone uses is just that they don’t like it, so not only shouldn’t it not happen, but it shouldn’t be brought up, regardless of heavy foreshadowing.

ReySky and ForceFinn isn’t a fetish kink like Reylow, it’s not a Doomrey stupid ass theory cause of a greeting, and it’s not those Snoke is Mace Windu dank theories that have no validation.

Both beliefs of ForceFinn and ReySky were grounded in a positive mind set and were equally progressive. Did some bad apples take it too far? Yes, but every part of the SW fandom has a bad apple.

Some people would just like to think TFA wasn’t a giant red hearing that meant nothing at all but to be Johnson’s subversion target. We already had character arcs repeated and now people want to make the movie completely pointless to pay attention to? If I wanted to watch confusing garbage, I’d watch Looper or Age of Ultron.

Why have so many scenes that mean nothing to the film or the future of the movies? With how much was really riding on TFA, am I really supposed to believe JJ just chose his two leads to entire character arcs didn’t mention?

Why is Maz asking about Rey, when Finn is the ex Stormtrooper acting suspicious? It’s scenes like this that ignore Finn to focus on Rey’s no last name given mysterious past that make me question why even bother with so much secrecy?

Why do Snoke and Kylo feel an Awakening in the force if only Fin has been the one showing all the signs, and Rey is just living her normal life? It’s scenes like this that focus on Finn’s connection to the force over Rey’s that make me question why even put all that in there in there?

I’m tired of people ignoring Finn and making him out to be nothing, even though TFA screams that he is something. It’s just about letting him have an ability he was hinted to have since TFA.

I’m tired of peoole saying Rey being related to Luke is some terrible thing. It’s just about giving Rey a family she was hinted to have since TFA.

If people can’t understand how Finn not being Force sensitive undercuts them, if people don’t understand how Rey not being a Skywalker undercuts, then that’s their problem.

Do they have to be those things? No. But many people would like to know that TFA wasn’t a complete lack of time.

These situations remind of the current Finnrey situation.

It’s like if something looks different to how people want it, Black Protagonist Jedi, Woman protagonist Skywalker, interracial relationship between the leads, the public and media will do whatever it takes to erase it and underplay it, but also make everyone turn against because of bad examples that don’t represent something that could have, and very well might still be, something incredibly progressive and positive.

maylovelies:

People always forget that Shmi started the Skywalker line. People always forget that Anakin carried Shmi in his heart until he died, that her death was the reason he turned to the dark side. People always forget that Leia’s resilience and strength is also from Shmi, and that Luke’s kindness and ever hopeful outlook on life is Shmi’s blood running through his veins. When people think of Leia and Luke, they never think of them as descendants of Shmi. The fandom never credits Shmi Skywalker as being a strong female character. No one ever makes comics or fics of Shmi’s ghost watching over the Skywalker twins.

The fandom just forgets about Shmi, forgets that she is the mother of the most powerful line in current canon. We forget that she is one of the most strongest female characters in the saga. To raise a son in slavery, to make sure he is healthy and care for, and to give him away so he could have a better life is strength. And to essentially be forgotten by the Republic,to be forgotten by the literal queen/Senator she gave aid and shelter to and who eventually marries her son-who had the resources to save her, and to receive no aid in return, yet still stay strong in the face of torture just to see her son one last time, takes strength.

We see her in Anakin, Luke and Leia yet, there is hardly ever mention. There is hardly ever recognition for her connection to them in the fandom. Well, guess it’s time to make my own Shmi content since the fans pretend she doesn’t exist.

Like for real, the skywalker line was started by a slave woman who gave all she had to help her son, and her granddaughter became a senator and her grandson became the head of the new jedi order. That is big and none of that would have happened without Shmi.

TLJ almost reads like an experiment in cynical trolling, a parody of
heavy-handedly didactic storytelling that gets hailed as a progressive
triumph while actually damaging and discrediting the whole idea of
diverse and feminist stories. It’s like RJ wanted to see how much he
could get away with as long as he adhered to progressive talking points–women are powerful! War profiteering is bad! Animal rights!!! The answer turns out to be: he could get away with a lot. So much that critics love how
“subversive” his movie is and his detractors are automatically named
sexists and racists.

I think this is one reason that
conservative and leftist/minority moviegoers are actually in agreement
over this film being bad. I’ll leave out the alt
right trolls who actually do hate the fact that women and nonwhite
people are on screen, whose existence can’t account for the TFA-TLJ
reaction gap anyway.

On the one hand, the right hand that is, TLJ exactly matches the right wing strawman of what
progressive storytelling is: A terribly told didactic story that
substitutes sloganeering for an organic unfolding of characters and events. In fact, TLJ is an interesting case of actual diversity quotas and tokenism, in that the
writer/director was contractually obligated to take on major nonwhite
characters that he clearly did not care much about (other than perhaps his own
character Rose whom he also managed to mangle). Remember when RJ joked about putting Finn in a coma through the whole movie? Or when he said he didn’t send Poe and Finn to Canto Bight together because their dialogue would be indistinguishable? The many times he said he could have written some interesting and emotionally resonant scene for Finn but just… didn’t want to do it? There’s a palpable interest gap compared to the way he talks about, say, Kylo Ren and Rey, and the results are
predictably awful for Poe’s and Finn’s arcs. To many conservatives this is the dystopian future of
forced progressivism in media, where talking points replace stories and female and nonwhite characters are half-hearted tokens and/or political mouthpieces.

Many on the opposite side of
the political spectrum hate TLJ as well, but for them it’s because they
know TLJ is almost a malicious parody of the kind of progressive and
representative story they want. TLJ discredits the entire idea of diverse and equal media by playing so neatly into right-wing strawmen, as outlined above. It’s
not just TLJ in itself that has this effect, either, but also the
surreal audience and critical response protecting it from criticism by
labeling even reasonable detractors as toxic bigots.

Adding insult to injury, TLJ isn’t even truly progressive. Finn’s injury is downplayed and laughed at, violence against him is played as comedic and endearing, Poe is turned into a hothead who must be lectured to, slapped, and shot by white women who know better, and Rey is made into a naïve, foolishly trusting girl who forgives and forgets heinous crimes that took place just days ago. Those oh-so-empowering female characters by and large have no stories of their own other than to teach and improve the men in their vicinity. The actual focus of the movie is a mass-murdering white male fascist. Lip service is given to progressive values, yet they have no meaningful impact on the story and the whole thing feels like the shallow pandering it is. War profiteering is bad, except it doesn’t really matter because Finn is going to give his life for an organization that we established feeds into war profits! Animal rights now, except the animals will probably be rounded up or die in the wild thanks to Rose’s PETA-level stunt! Oh, child laborers? Who cares.

The Last Jedi is not progressive storytelling, nor is it even regressive in an honest way. Rather it discredits the idea of progressiveness in media by being a bad, bumbling version of it that plays into conservative fears. This effect is amplified because far too many members of the audience either won’t say the emperor has no clothes or have convinced themselves that he is, in fact, magnificently dressed. TLJ is almost a social experiment, and I would not be surprised if it was intended as such.

(None of this is to say you can’t enjoy the movie or were wrong to like it, of course. This post is about the politics of TLJ and the lie of its supposed progressiveness. I respect different tastes and it’s fine to like problematic things. What I can’t stand is intellectual dishonesty.)