I think the author of Twilight is a member of the LDS church, and though the more conservative strains of Mormonism may have some things in common with Christian fundamentalism there’s enough anti-Mormon bigotry in Christian fundamentalist circles that they probably shouldn’t be conflated. But you’re right, it’s a very specific and to me creepy kind of wish fulfillment.
TLJ may be more Christian than you think, though. I had conversations with both @kyberfox and @attackfish about how blatantly, painfully white and Christian a story TLJ is, more in the cultural than religious sense. It’s really a jarring tonal change from TFA which was directed and written by Jewish creators.
As a result Rey is no longer the scrappy heroine from TFA burning with anger at the injustice done to her and those she loves. Rather she’s a pure and patient maiden devoted to the redemption of the “sinner” who wronged her. The whole movie has a pretty nonsensical message about how you shouldn’t hate your oppressors for Reasons and love will save us all? Somehow?
So yeah, Rey is one of the characters who were failed by the storytelling but her story is also symptomatic of the movie as a whole and its incoherent, sometimes downright repugnant message.
@thatfantasylovingdork Okay. You seem desperate enough for my attention to get into my notes months after I ignored your first comment, so let’s do this.
First of all, I am not Jewish myself and was relying on comments by my some of my Jewish friends that their culture is more accepting of anger as a response to injustice, and women’s anger in particular, compared to cultural Christianity dominant in Europe and the U.S. Rey’s character could be seen as a reflection of such a cultural archetype. I certainly don’t mean that all Jewish people are angry (though I don’t blame them if they are tbh), or thatthere is any one Jewish experience or any one Jewish culture for that matter. It’s a statement of a few anecdotal experiences with particular Jewish cultures, just like yours is.
Second of all, I don’t know what to say if you think Rey was angry and easily pissed off for “no reason,” especially toward the end after you watched her assaulted, kidnapped, tortured, and forced to watch people she cared about murdered and almost murdered. I heartily hope you don’t apply that standard to real people.
Third of all, since you are so very ready to invalidate the effect of everything Kylo Ren ever did (”no reason” lmao), it’s not surprising that you’re calling for him to be forgiven or rather, it seems to me, absolved of all accountability for his actions. I don’t even want him to die, personally, I want him to be in jail for the rest of his life to think about what he’s done. Would you be okay with that, I wonder, or is that too violent for you? I’m also okay with him dying a violent death, and if he is killed it will be to end the immediate threat he represents and not a “heartless murder.”
@thatfantasylovingdork Thank you for taking the time to tell me about your beliefs, but not everyone believes in supernatural beings or a divine/universal will. I don’t believe in the death penalty but I’m not crying for hanged Nazis, and killing in self-defense is entirely justifiable.
Also did you just say “misandrist” like it’s a real thing asdjklf yes, I’m sure Rey was “rude” because Finn was a guy and not because she initially (and mistakenly, thanks BB-8) thought he was a thief and possibly a murderer, and later because she was told she had become a shooting target because of him. I’m sure the real problem was his gender. Yeah. Right.
I… can’t tell anymore if you’re serious or trolling? This oh-so-caring woman had just tried to kill him and his friend twice, and the first time she deliberately wanted to make them suffer. How could Finn have rescued her without risking his own life? Climb down into a firepit when she was a still-active threat who would no doubt have tried to kill him again? Why did he have to repay a lifetime of abuse plus recent attempts to kill him by risking his life for hers?
But yeah, sure it was because she was white. Because reverse racism is just as real as misandry. Lmaoooo.
Tell me, do you make a habit of disregarding outright attempts to kill people and calling abuse “caring?” If you do this to real people I really want you to get far away from me and preferably people in general.
Let’s talk about the Finn-Phasma fight. I’ve heard Finn’s victory over Phasma being described as a lucky strike, but I don’t think that’s at all true. I thought it was another case of Finn’s quick thinking and tactical smarts saving the day, much like his hangar scene in TFA (link).
Despite being far too short and the adversary being a character that did not get nearly enough buildup, this fight is still intense and well put together. For my money it’s the most tactically interesting hand-to-hand combat sequence in the movie. It also lets Finn be the badass that he should have been for the entirety of the movie–I mean can we take a moment to appreciate the Aesthetic of him just swatting aside some dude who came at him with a gun?
The man has a gun in his face and doesn’t give a fuck. “Move, I’m in a hurry.” Pow. Doesn’t even change course, just walks right past the screaming trooper to his actual opponent. Serious kudos to the Stormtrooper’s voice work here, too, like AAAAHHHHHhhh
And also that leaping charge at Phasma? Iconic. Remember this part and what he was trying to do here, because it’s important for the payoff of the fight.
Finn had the high ground. It was over the second that happened.
Proof Finn is the next Kenobi 😂
All seriousness that’s what made Obi-Wan such a good fighter. He wasn’t a powerhouse like Anakin, but he had a strategic mind and was good at improvising plans on the spot.
Phasma herself regarded Finn as a highly capable soldier.
Good point. Also like Finn, Obi-Wan’s Force abilities seem to be particularly strong on sensing and empathy–like when he felt the destruction of Alderaan much as Finn felt the destruction of Hosnia. Their abilities even manifested the same way, by hearing the screams of the dying. It probably has to do with their personalities, the way they are both very empathetic and sensitive to people and situations.
I’m pretty sure Phasma giving such praise is the equivalent of other people shitting their pants in transcendent euphoria. I wonder if the fight was personal to Phasma on some level–she just could not accept that she and the system she so believed in could have been wrong (“You were a bug in the system”).
Finn’s victory was not a fluke
Let’s talk about the Finn-Phasma fight. I’ve heard Finn’s victory over Phasma being described as a lucky strike, but I don’t think that’s at all true. I thought it was another case of Finn’s quick thinking and tactical smarts saving the day, much like his hangar scene in TFA (link).
Despite being far too short and the adversary being a character that did not get nearly enough buildup, this fight is still intense and well put together. For my money it’s the most tactically interesting hand-to-hand combat sequence in the movie. It also lets Finn be the badass that he should have been for the entirety of the movie–I mean can we take a moment to appreciate the Aesthetic of him just swatting aside some dude who came at him with a gun?
The man has a gun in his face and doesn’t give a fuck. “Move, I’m in a hurry.” Pow. Doesn’t even change course, just walks right past the screaming trooper to his actual opponent. Serious kudos to the Stormtrooper’s voice work here, too, like AAAAHHHHHhhh
And also that leaping charge at Phasma? Iconic. Remember this part and what he was trying to do here, because it’s important for the payoff of the fight.
One thing I love about this fight is that Phasma is HUGE and the camera emphasizes this fact. She fills the entire screen in her two final attacks…
…and the height difference between the actors, already considerable, is emphasized by the camera angles and poses, by having Phasma attack from above and filming her from below…
…or by having Finn stumble and bend down with Phasma looming over him.
I’ll save Exhibit D of how Phasma’s size was emphasized for later, when I wrap this thing up.
This size difference is an unusual juxtaposition for a cinematic fight between a man and a woman, with the woman being the large, seemingly invincible enemy and the man the smaller one who must win by his wits if he is to win at all. I daresay the races of the characters make it even more unusual.
Finn is in trouble here, as the David in a David vs. Goliath fight always is. Even though he is strong and athletic and has aggro like nobody’s business, the best he can do is stay on the defensive and he can’t push her back. He’s being pushed back, dodge by dodge and parry by parry, until he is driven to the edge of a pit. Another leaping charge to try and get her in the helmet? He can forget about it unless he wants to be cut in half, not while she’s pressing him this way.
Then he takes a hit near the edge of the pit and flies back before he stumbles to the edge. Let’s take a closer look at that part.
Notice how, as Finn is flying backward from Phasma’s strike, he’s turned at a 45-degree angle and is actually looking behind his back into the pit as indicated by the red arrow.
In fact, when you see him recover from the stumble, he’s STILL looking down into the pit right until the moment he turns to face Phasma again. It almost looks like he’s purposefully getting a few steps closer to the edge to get a better look (gif is slightly slowed down).
Could that be the look of someone who’s gazing down an actual abyss and making a split-second decision?
We can also see from these shots that there is actually a clear path of escape from both Phasma and the pit toward the camera, indicated by the green arrow in the screenshot. Finn could have rolled under her next attack to avoid being knocked backward.
But instead, immediately after getting a pretty good look at exactly where he’d be falling, he takes what seems to be the worst possible course of action–standing to meet the next attack, which has the predictable consequence of getting him knocked back into the pit.
From this examination of the sequence, it’s very probable that Finn literally looked before he leaped. He saw that the drop was a survivable height and that he could raise himself out of it, or find some other way to get out and beat Phasma/help Rose. If he didn’t want to fall he had shown more than enough reflex and had the size advantage, given that he was fighting a larger opponent, to duck and change course rather than stand and meet an attack that would cause him to fall.
One fly in this ointment is that Phasma could see into the pit as well as he could, and if she paid attention she could see that he had survived and was coming back up for Round 2.
However, first of all, even if Phasma was looking Finn still would be better off on the rising platform because he would have more room to maneuver on it. If Phasma did not manage to jump onto the platform he would be given a new height advantage. Remember that initial leaping attack? It didn’t work because she was too tall and also saw him coming, but if he could just get some elevation the second time could be the charm. Even if she did jump onto the platform he would still be slightly better off than before with more space.
Second of all: Rose.
I think it was reasonable for Finn to have counted on the possibility, or at least to have hoped, that Rose would distract Phasma in some way, and in fact Rose performed beautifully by screaming “No!” and reminding Phasma of her existence. This prompted Phasma to spin away from the pit and fire at Rose without taking the time to see what had become of Finn, missing her chance to anticipate him or get onto the platform with him.
Mind you, Phasma didn’t have to attack Rose. Rose wasn’t even shooting at first and the scene already established that Phasma’s armor is blaster-proof. She could have taken a split second to glance down after Finn and check that her former star cadet was actually out of the fight and didn’t have a trick up his stolen uniform sleeve. Phasma’s downfall came from her own cruelty and arrogance, which makes it all the more satisfying.
It’s also worth noting that Rose’s shooting back at Phasma, while furthering the distraction, was extremely risky to her. It wasted valuable time she could have taken to seek cover after her initial shock and horror, and as a result she was nearly hurt and could have been killed.
Rose already knew that shooting Phasma was futile. She had tried it earlier, and the blaster beams had bounced off like BB pellets. Shooting at Phasma was a grief and rage response, coming from someone who had suffered recent bereavement and couldn’t bear the thought of losing someone else.
It’s hard to tell to what extent Finn counted on Rose as a distraction, since his decision was by necessity on the fly. However it’s clear that Rose’s action, along with Phasma’s underestimation of him, made his plan work out beyond probably even his best expectations. And when that payoff came…
Bam.
Remember how Finn was trying to get at her “chrome dome” from the start, and why it didn’t work? She was too big, and she saw him coming. Well, his falling trick took care of both problems, first by giving him a height advantage with the rising platform, and second through Rose’s assist distracting Phasma with her genuine distress.
This is the promised Exhibit D of Phasma’s size as well. She even falls like a colossus here, filing the screen a third time as she falls over in slow motion like some once-gleaming idol. Though I did not capture the whole sequence here you can see the beginning of how Finn’s figure being revealed as Phasma falls, as though toppling her were a necessary step for his full self-realization. It’s a neat visual that would have worked a lot better if both characters had had better lead-up stories, or if the deleted mini-uprising scene had been kept at least. Still, given the history between the two, it’s a moving moment to see him literally rise above his abuser and affirm his freedom from her. In this he presents a contrast to Kylo Ren who, rather than being free, chose to sink deeper into an abusive and oppressive dynamic after killing his own abuser (link).
In this fight Finn, in true trickster hero fashion (link), prevails over a larger, seemingly unbeatable enemy using his wits and also by turning her own flaws against her. Some luck was involved, as in all fights, but in many ways Finn made his own luck by seizing an advantage through fast, unconventional thinking. It’s in keeping with what we know about the character–that he has the acumen to make accurate tactical judgments under fire and the boldness to take decisive, sometimes risky action. The moment was short and easy to miss, but impressive nonetheless.
There’s an interesting juxtaposition between Kylo and Finn in The Last Jedi. Because they both end up killing their abusers in TLJ and in doing so “claiming” their identities.
But where Finn’s action sets him free of the First Order and the Dark Side when he proudly pronounce himself ‘rebel scum’ to Phasma, embracing that he is the flaw in their system and everything she hates, and is very proud of being just that Kylo goes in the opposite direction. After killing Snoke he does not turn his back on the First Order or the Dark Side despite being offered the chance to do so and having a direct ticket out of there.
Snoke may have influenced Kylo before then, just as Phasma had control over Finn’s life until very recently, but now they’re both gone and both men are free to choose as they wish.
And their respective choices are clear.
Finn embraces the rebels, freedom and the Light Side. Kylo chooses to stay with the First Order, choosing power and the oppression of the Dark Side instead.
This is the consistent and fundamental contrast between Finn and Kylo, and I think the two representative ways (simplified by necessity) that abuse victims respond to abuse: By breaking out of the dynamic and refusing to be a part of it anymore, or by perpetuating the destructive dynamic. You can kill the monster or become the monster. If you do the latter it doesn’t matter if your abuser is no longer around; he has a new lease on life through you.
I’m guessing you mean ALL or ANY of the female characters could be replaced by a sexy lamp without the plot falling apart. That said, much as I dislike TLJ, I disagree. The female characters in TLJ were by and large not inert plot devices, I can say that much, though enragingly enough it’s Leia who comes closest to that description due to spending much of the movie in a coma.
My issue with the way these characters were written is that they were not given their own stories but rather made to serve the stories of male characters with a fake sheen of empowerment. Rose was there to “set Finn straight” or whatever (there are so many levels of racism and sexism in this thinking it’s dizzying), Rey to try and bring Kylo back to the light and ultimately show how far he has fallen, and Holdo and Leia to guide Poe to be a leader. The flaws and traumas of these women are made subservient to the needs of male growth and change, and in the case of Rose and Holdo especially, instead of having their own messy humanity they are Right for the Edification of Stupid Men.
I’ve heard it said that feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings. If women are not allowed their own flaws and biases but can only be omniscient and hyper-capable devices to help and teach men, then they’re not being treated as human beings. Among its many other flaws TLJ is a fake feminist story, and predictably White Feminists™ in particular are eating it up.
All of my white feminist friends loved TLJ. I absolutely cannot comprehend how, but they all see Leia, Rey and Holdo, in particular, as strong women without seeing any of their massive flaws. To the point that they rage at me for daring to criticize them, saying I’m just afraid of women in power. I don’t understand how they can’t see that I’m actually further on their side than they are.
I suppose I can’t blame them, though. Women get so little good, strong actual women in power, and so little good representation that when they see anything, even–even really shittily written and executed characters–they eat it up. It still amazes me though, because they’re just so offensively badly written.
I suppose you could bring up the absolute butch job done on Phasma. Phasma who has always been marketed as this incredible big bad and has been sidelined this entire series, getting taken out by a cheap shot.
@brotherskywalker Yeah, I mean conventionally strong female characters can be great wish fulfillment so I can see where your friends are coming from, but I tend to side-eye the interpretation that it’s some kind of feminist triumph for female characters not to have their own stories but rather primarily teach male characters lessons.
And they can be read as less shining beacons of righness and more as characters with biases and weaknesses as you point out. I think that’s way more interesting, actually. Rose’s story can be about her grief and confusion in a situation where she lost her only remaining family and is losing the one thing she has left, the Resistance. Holdo’s story can be about her hubris and blind spots as a commander and as a survivor of genocide. The focus is all wrong for these readings to really gel, though, and rather than lend itself to multiple interpretations the execution of the story lurches between confusing and offensive.
@grandoljoe Phasma of all characters could actually have been replaced by a sexy lamp, smh. RJ even took out the scene where she shot the Stormtroopers to cover her ass. I’m really disappointed with her character in both TFA and TLJ, all the more because she had so much potential.
I should add that I was replying from my phone and I meant to say “butcher job” not butch job. My apologies.
Thank goodness, I thought this was the start of the “Is Phasma butch” discourse.
Fanon Captain Phasma: PhasMom, remembers the names of all her stormtroopers, a nice and caring person, friends with Kylo Ren and General Hux, only wants the best for you.
Canon Captain Phasma: Straight up burned down a village in the first 5 minutes of the movie, is jacked, wears armor plated with the melted down hull of the ship belonging to the former emperor/dictator that was totally up for genocide all the time, a person she idolizes
L.J.'s Obsessions 