This didn’t fit with the tone of the previous post, so I’m making my own post.
Even disregarding the comics, this is what we know from the “10 minutes of screen time in TFA”–
Poe Dameron was the man Leia trusted on a mission that not only was vital to the triumph of the Resistance and defeat of the First Order, but had deep, personal implications for her as well
You wouldn’t trust a disrespecting hotshot flyboy who doesn’t think critically with a mission like this
It was mission that Poe knew if he failed/got caught, he’d (1) doom the Resistance and (2) die because no one could claim him or come for him because of the risks and other political things
This is also not a light conclusion for a hotshot, cavalier flyboy to come to
This also isn’t a mission you give to a man who thinks being a hero means being a glorified martyr, because that man would make all the wrong decisions
Poe stayed behind to defend the village when he should’ve hightailed it out of there, even with a broken X-wing.
But before he did so, he made sure the map was safe and that BB-8 would take it far away. He made sure to minimize all risk of mission failure (*side eyes him persisting on taking out the Dreadnaught*)
Of course, I suppose if you wanted, you could construe the above to be that Poe is in some way still playing a Resistance Hero ™. But in my opinion, if that was the real angle they wanted to play, they should’ve done in the context of the trauma he endures in TFA. Where he’s taking undue risk to shake the PTSD, where he’s not thinking clearly anymore because he’s been tortured and saw some of his friends die.
But I take all that and raise you this:
Poe represents the heart of the Resistance because Leia doesn’t come until later and she also doesn’t get much screentime. He has a kind, open heart.
He represents the “bring me your weak and weary” which you can see in the immediate rapport be builds with Finn
There’s no clear indication that Poe should trust Finn, despite the rescue which could logically be construed as a ploy, but Poe trusted him anyway. Because that’s who Poe Dameron is.
Poe immediately recognized Finn as a defector, recognized him as a man who knew the FO was wrong and wanted to get away
And Oscar Isaac took great pain to telegraph this, okay? In the minimal screentime he had, he made Poe the first person we see to champion and care about Finn, when no one in the First Order had.
Poe doesn’t know who Rey is, but he knows she’s important to Finn and now she’s important to Poe. And if Finn trusts her, Poe will trust her too.
(Adding on, the scene in TLJ where Finn hands Poe the beacon is powerful in the same way and tbh one of the nicer touches of this movie. The look they share, and the trust they’ve built in such a short time? jaklsjdf;ljaslkdjf)
Just about everything in TFA about Poe, thought admittedly two-dimensional, is meant to telegraph that he is a good man. A kind man. An experienced Resistance commander. Not some greenie who wants to just blow shit up all the time.
I do find it “funny” that people saying Poe is sexist and the “worst” for standing up to a woman he did not know or had reasons to trust. But then turn around and praise Kylo Ren, a man who has spent the last two films belittling and gaslighting Rey and their “amazing” relationship. Even without mentioning how out of character that was for Poe. the double standard here is amazing and I am not even talking about just fandom. If you are attacking Poe, while praising Kylo…you don’t have a feminism issue, you have a racism issue.
If you don’t have time I will explain below, spoilers obviously:
When the protagonist Iden Versio finds out that her husband Del was killed by Hask, a First Order officer who looks like Brad Pitt in a Nazi uniform, she wants to board Hask’s Star Destroyer to kill him. Iden and Del’s daughter Zay, however, reminds Iden that vengeance won’t bring Del back and convinces her mom to turn the infiltration into a lifesaving mission instead by stealing the FO’s information. Iden and Zay, together with their friend Shriv, steal the Dreadnought’s plans from the computer banks but in the process Hask captures Zay and holds her hostage. Iden throws her gun away but Zay takes Hask down just as he turns his blaster on Iden, and Iden fires the final shot at Hask when he tries to kill them both. Iden then dies from her wounds in Zay’s arms, telling her daughter that if she’s going to die it had better be to save lives. Zay and Shriv transmit the plans to Leia and Zay joins the Resistance.
See how well this short narrative works, how coherent it is thematically? If Iden had sought revenge for Del without regard to the larger picture they never would have gotten the Dreadnought’s plans. When Iden did kill Hask it wasn’t for futile vengeance but to transmit the intel to the Resistance and save Zay whom she loved the most in all of existence. She reaffirms to Zay that she was right and instills in her the values she needs to take into the coming fight. It’s simple but effective and everything Star Wars should be.
I feel like the video game took the characters and overall themes of TLJ and just did them better…
It really did. The TLJ DLC is also a giant middle finger to the idea that the dreadnought was unimportant or Poe wasted lives for nothing. That thing would have obliterated the Resistance, and Iden DIED to get those plans to them.
Actual Poe Dameron: General Leia’s most trusted pilot, does spy work for the resistance, cares deeply about his squadron, left the Republican army because he couldn’t deal with constant death, constantly outsmarts the FO forces in the air and on ground, didn’t leave C3PO behind….
Please enjoy this page from the most recent Poe Dameron Comic in which Leia explains the whole plan to Poe (even the bits he isn’t a part of!) in a flashback while he carries out her orders without a problem, which I am posting for no particular reason whatsoever right now.
Yeah, I like how Poe already earned Leia’s respect and trust, and had an integral part to play in the plan that gave his commanding officer any reason to tell him the plan.
I also like the way Poe already understands Leia’s form of both femininity and leadership and trusts her to make good calls, and follows her orders without assuming she must be crazy or a traitor.
These are things I say also for no particular reason whatsoever right now.
Yes, understanding your leader’s form of femininity is of key importance in military operations.
Yeah, it helps you recognize them as a competent leader and strategist and not underestimate them or assume they must be traitors.
So does introducing your next in line in the chain of command to everybody before they’re actually forced into a position of command.
Yeah. Everyone needs to know absolutely everyone else in the militia, just in case, for example, all of your leadership gets killed at once and only one or two admirals are left, then everyone can already be on board. Letting anyone possibly not know anyone else is just bad planning, not a completely reasonable logistical scenario.
Failure to communicate is failure of leadership. If someone wants to be recognized as competent they need to act competently, which Holdo did not.
The plan was need-to-know. Poe did not need to know. Especially given that as soon as Poe knew the plan, he overcommunicated and the First Prder found out.
Holdo followed military protocol, had a good strategy, and made sound decisions about disseminating information regarding that strategy. Stop trying to paint her actions as incompetency.
Yet half the crew mutinied against her… because it looked to all hell like she was going to get them all killed… because off her off-putting and secretive leadership style, which is how the tlj visual dictionary describes her. It was a flaw and failure on her part, not some kind of brilliance. Do try to keep up.
It was four people.
Four people mutinied against her.
Do you think the crew was eight people?
Also, Poe leading a mutiny against someone and ruining their best strategy for survival, to the point that Leia was willing to stun him over it, is not an indicator of Holdo’s flaws. It is, in fact, a big indicator of Poe’s flaws, and was an intentional story beat as part of Poe’s overall arc where he learns, from Holdo, how to be a leader.
The best version of events, for the Resistance, would have been of Poe followed orders and trusted his commander. That he was unwilling to do so, because of his unchecked hero instinct, is not a strike against Holdo.
I love how you think the four people shown on screen are enough to effectively mutiny against a ship crewed by hundreds. There were officers among the mutineers and what do officers do? Lead people.
Lieutenant Connix, a member of the bridge crew who was level-headed and well-regarded enough to be overseeing the evacuations from D’Qar also joined Poe, so it wasn’t just Poe being a hothead.
Poe learned from Holdo how to be a leader–as in be so authoritarian and uncommunicative that he loses his grip on his own people? Sounds like a hell of an improvement.
I like how you think Poe’s having an arc is mutually exclusive with Holdo having flaws as a leader as well. Because female characters have to be perfect in every way in order to be valid, right? Boring.
I love how you think they mutinied effectively.
Buddy, they had to lock the bridge with only two people inside (save Threepio). The mutiny lasted all of five minutes on-screen, maybe an hour tops in-universe.
Holdo can have flaws as a character in the same way Leia can have flaws: namely that they exist, but they aren’t relevant to the plot because she’s not one of our heroes who is growing as a person.
And her flaws are not the things you’re pointing out because, guess what? Not telling the need-to-know plan to the hot-shot who just got demoted by your best friend because he prefers dramatic heroics and insubordination, where the Resistance sustains losses it cannot take, to protecting the light – the exact opposite of what the plan actually is – especially when he, again, does not need to know, is not a flaw.
Tell you what, you guys actually watch the movie – it’s good, I promise – and then get back to me about what happens in it, because so far it looks like none of you were actually paying attention.
So Poe was demoted. What was Holdo’s reason for not telling Connix and the others? Do you have reasons for that, or are you starting from the conclusion that Holdo can do no wrong and everyone who opposed her was automatically an asshole?
If you want to talk bad attitude, let’s talk about yours. There’s this thing called differing reactions to media. People are allowed to see flaws in a movie you yourself liked. Yet you found it fit to barge in on a post by someone who didn’t experience the movie the same way as you did to try and cram your opinion down their throat. No wonder you find Holdo’s leadership style–which canon material itself describes as flawed–so perfect if you think this is good communication, or needed or wanted in any way.
The dollop of condescension to top this all off is a nice touch, too. Oh of course anyone who has reservations about Holdo or TLJ must not have been paying attention. How’s that szechuan sauce?
Okay but you are aware that Poe actually couldn’t have given the plan to Finn and Rose because at the time they got captured Poe didn’t know the plan and then got stunned. He was still unconscious when DJ told the FO about the plan and woke up minutes before they started firing at the shuttles right? So how the fuck should have Poe told Finn the plan? Wait let me guess it’s force Skype right? RIGHT?
Poe’s “dramatic heroics” saved the entire resistance fleet because guess what, a Dreadnought that is able to bombard a planet FROM SPACE is also very likely to rip through three puny resistance ships without effort. Poe called it a “fleet killer” What do you think would have happened if that Dreadnought was still around by the time they jumped out of hyperspace?
And if Leia was so against the plan, she could have called the attack off any time she wanted to, because she is THE GENERAL. But she didn’t. Which paints her as incompetent leader who blames her mistakes on other people. (not to forget they lost 50 people, the FO 200.000)
And while we’re at it, Poe got demoted yes, but he was still A CAPTAIN. That makes him a commanding officer and Holdo’s second or third in command. Which means if Holdo dies, Poe is the leader anyway. So not telling anyone the plan, when there is a off chance of death which would leave everyone helpless, is fucking stupid.
If Holdo doesn’t want Poe as her commanding officer, she should have said so and not let him on the bridge. She didn’t do that, which means she left him in a high commanding position and then refused to give him orders because she has no idea what she is doing and she has no place on or near the bridge.
Please enjoy this page from the most recent Poe Dameron Comic in which Leia explains the whole plan to Poe (even the bits he isn’t a part of!) in a flashback while he carries out her orders without a problem, which I am posting for no particular reason whatsoever right now.
Yeah, I like how Poe already earned Leia’s respect and trust, and had an integral part to play in the plan that gave his commanding officer any reason to tell him the plan.
I also like the way Poe already understands Leia’s form of both femininity and leadership and trusts her to make good calls, and follows her orders without assuming she must be crazy or a traitor.
These are things I say also for no particular reason whatsoever right now.
Yes, understanding your leader’s form of femininity is of key importance in military operations.
Yeah, it helps you recognize them as a competent leader and strategist and not underestimate them or assume they must be traitors.
So does introducing your next in line in the chain of command to everybody before they’re actually forced into a position of command.
Yeah. Everyone needs to know absolutely everyone else in the militia, just in case, for example, all of your leadership gets killed at once and only one or two admirals are left, then everyone can already be on board. Letting anyone possibly not know anyone else is just bad planning, not a completely reasonable logistical scenario.
Failure to communicate is failure of leadership. If someone wants to be recognized as competent they need to act competently, which Holdo did not.
The plan was need-to-know. Poe did not need to know. Especially given that as soon as Poe knew the plan, he overcommunicated and the First Prder found out.
Holdo followed military protocol, had a good strategy, and made sound decisions about disseminating information regarding that strategy. Stop trying to paint her actions as incompetency.
Yet half the crew mutinied against her… because it looked to all hell like she was going to get them all killed… because off her off-putting and secretive leadership style, which is how the tlj visual dictionary describes her. It was a flaw and failure on her part, not some kind of brilliance. Do try to keep up.
It was four people.
Four people mutinied against her.
Do you think the crew was eight people?
Also, Poe leading a mutiny against someone and ruining their best strategy for survival, to the point that Leia was willing to stun him over it, is not an indicator of Holdo’s flaws. It is, in fact, a big indicator of Poe’s flaws, and was an intentional story beat as part of Poe’s overall arc where he learns, from Holdo, how to be a leader.
The best version of events, for the Resistance, would have been of Poe followed orders and trusted his commander. That he was unwilling to do so, because of his unchecked hero instinct, is not a strike against Holdo.
I love how you think the four people shown on screen are enough to effectively mutiny against a ship crewed by hundreds. There were officers among the mutineers and what do officers do? Lead people.
Lieutenant Connix, a member of the bridge crew who was level-headed and well-regarded enough to be overseeing the evacuations from D’Qar also joined Poe, so it wasn’t just Poe being a hothead.
Poe learned from Holdo how to be a leader–as in be so authoritarian and uncommunicative that he loses his grip on his own people? Sounds like a hell of an improvement.
I like how you think Poe’s having an arc is mutually exclusive with Holdo having flaws as a leader as well. Because female characters have to be perfect in every way in order to be valid, right? Boring.
I love how you think they mutinied effectively.
Buddy, they had to lock the bridge with only two people inside (save Threepio). The mutiny lasted all of five minutes on-screen, maybe an hour tops in-universe.
Holdo can have flaws as a character in the same way Leia can have flaws: namely that they exist, but they aren’t relevant to the plot because she’s not one of our heroes who is growing as a person.
And her flaws are not the things you’re pointing out because, guess what? Not telling the need-to-know plan to the hot-shot who just got demoted by your best friend because he prefers dramatic heroics and insubordination, where the Resistance sustains losses it cannot take, to protecting the light – the exact opposite of what the plan actually is – especially when he, again, does not need to know, is not a flaw.
Tell you what, you guys actually watch the movie – it’s good, I promise – and then get back to me about what happens in it, because so far it looks like none of you were actually paying attention.
So Poe was demoted. What was Holdo’s reason for not telling Connix and the others? Do you have reasons for that, or are you starting from the conclusion that Holdo can do no wrong and everyone who opposed her was automatically an asshole?
If you want to talk bad attitude, let’s talk about yours. There’s this thing called differing reactions to media. People are allowed to see flaws in a movie you yourself liked. Yet you found it fit to barge in on a post by someone who didn’t experience the movie the same way as you did to try and cram your opinion down their throat. No wonder you find Holdo’s leadership style–which canon material itself describes as flawed–so perfect if you think this is good communication, or needed or wanted in any way.
The dollop of condescension to top this all off is a nice touch, too. Oh of course anyone who has reservations about Holdo or TLJ must not have been paying attention. How’s that szechuan sauce?
They did not need to know.
What part of this being a need-to-know plan do you not understand? The plan is not served by sharing it liberally. Doing so endangers it because it makes it more likely the First Order finds out about it. The people who need to know the plan are the people immediately involved in it. None if whom were involved in Poe’s mutiny.
And if you think that I was the first person on this post to be condescending, or even that I condescended to you before you did to me, then my judgement about your media comprehension was spot-on. The reason I’m convinced none of you paid attention to the movie isn’t that you didn’t like it, it’s that you keep asserting things that are directly contradicted by the movie.
Also, visual guides aren’t canon. They’ve been specifically stated not to be canon.
I can’t even be mad anymore, the way you straight-up make shit up and speculate, starting backward from the conclusion that Holdo was unquestionably right, is faintly disturbing. I hope you find some closure in whatever personal reasons that drove you to come onto this post and choose to argue this issue to the death.
I mean, Story Group member Pablo Hidalgo is on record referring fans to the TFA Visual Dictonary as the best window into canon, but obviously canon is whatever you say it is. Have a good day.
Please enjoy this page from the most recent Poe Dameron Comic in which Leia explains the whole plan to Poe (even the bits he isn’t a part of!) in a flashback while he carries out her orders without a problem, which I am posting for no particular reason whatsoever right now.
Yeah, I like how Poe already earned Leia’s respect and trust, and had an integral part to play in the plan that gave his commanding officer any reason to tell him the plan.
I also like the way Poe already understands Leia’s form of both femininity and leadership and trusts her to make good calls, and follows her orders without assuming she must be crazy or a traitor.
These are things I say also for no particular reason whatsoever right now.
Yes, understanding your leader’s form of femininity is of key importance in military operations.
Yeah, it helps you recognize them as a competent leader and strategist and not underestimate them or assume they must be traitors.
So does introducing your next in line in the chain of command to everybody before they’re actually forced into a position of command.
Yeah. Everyone needs to know absolutely everyone else in the militia, just in case, for example, all of your leadership gets killed at once and only one or two admirals are left, then everyone can already be on board. Letting anyone possibly not know anyone else is just bad planning, not a completely reasonable logistical scenario.
Failure to communicate is failure of leadership. If someone wants to be recognized as competent they need to act competently, which Holdo did not.
The plan was need-to-know. Poe did not need to know. Especially given that as soon as Poe knew the plan, he overcommunicated and the First Prder found out.
Holdo followed military protocol, had a good strategy, and made sound decisions about disseminating information regarding that strategy. Stop trying to paint her actions as incompetency.
Yet half the crew mutinied against her… because it looked to all hell like she was going to get them all killed… because off her off-putting and secretive leadership style, which is how the tlj visual dictionary describes her. It was a flaw and failure on her part, not some kind of brilliance. Do try to keep up.
It was four people.
Four people mutinied against her.
Do you think the crew was eight people?
Also, Poe leading a mutiny against someone and ruining their best strategy for survival, to the point that Leia was willing to stun him over it, is not an indicator of Holdo’s flaws. It is, in fact, a big indicator of Poe’s flaws, and was an intentional story beat as part of Poe’s overall arc where he learns, from Holdo, how to be a leader.
The best version of events, for the Resistance, would have been of Poe followed orders and trusted his commander. That he was unwilling to do so, because of his unchecked hero instinct, is not a strike against Holdo.
I love how you think the four people shown on screen are enough to effectively mutiny against a ship crewed by hundreds. There were officers among the mutineers and what do officers do? Lead people.
Lieutenant Connix, a member of the bridge crew who was level-headed and well-regarded enough to be overseeing the evacuations from D’Qar also joined Poe, so it wasn’t just Poe being a hothead.
Poe learned from Holdo how to be a leader–as in be so authoritarian and uncommunicative that he loses his grip on his own people? Sounds like a hell of an improvement.
I like how you think Poe’s having an arc is mutually exclusive with Holdo having flaws as a leader as well. Because female characters have to be perfect in every way in order to be valid, right? Boring.
Please enjoy this page from the most recent Poe Dameron Comic in which Leia explains the whole plan to Poe (even the bits he isn’t a part of!) in a flashback while he carries out her orders without a problem, which I am posting for no particular reason whatsoever right now.
Yeah, I like how Poe already earned Leia’s respect and trust, and had an integral part to play in the plan that gave his commanding officer any reason to tell him the plan.
I also like the way Poe already understands Leia’s form of both femininity and leadership and trusts her to make good calls, and follows her orders without assuming she must be crazy or a traitor.
These are things I say also for no particular reason whatsoever right now.
Yes, understanding your leader’s form of femininity is of key importance in military operations.
Yeah, it helps you recognize them as a competent leader and strategist and not underestimate them or assume they must be traitors.
So does introducing your next in line in the chain of command to everybody before they’re actually forced into a position of command.
Yeah. Everyone needs to know absolutely everyone else in the militia, just in case, for example, all of your leadership gets killed at once and only one or two admirals are left, then everyone can already be on board. Letting anyone possibly not know anyone else is just bad planning, not a completely reasonable logistical scenario.
Failure to communicate is failure of leadership. If someone wants to be recognized as competent they need to act competently, which Holdo did not.
The plan was need-to-know. Poe did not need to know. Especially given that as soon as Poe knew the plan, he overcommunicated and the First Prder found out.
Holdo followed military protocol, had a good strategy, and made sound decisions about disseminating information regarding that strategy. Stop trying to paint her actions as incompetency.
Yet half the crew mutinied against her… because it looked to all hell like she was going to get them all killed… because off her off-putting and secretive leadership style, which is how the tlj visual dictionary describes her. It was a flaw and failure on her part, not some kind of brilliance. Do try to keep up.
L.J.'s Obsessions 