lj-writes:

lj-writes:

Um? This is the woman who was confirmed, over and over again, to have put her ambitions ahead of the good of others, of Bajor, or indeed the universe. She also ummm tried to assassinate her opponent (Bareil)? Which would make anyone a villain? But that’s not close to all of it, you even brought up the pah wraiths yourself–i.e. her last arc in the show, where she was going to burn Bajor down and kill the Prophets because they liked Sisko better than her. I’m not sure what Berman meant by violation, certainly Dukat raped her by deception and no one deserves that. Here’s some news, though: suffering a wrong does not in itself make you a good person.

@kyberfox The salt of Dukat stans in response to his story is a major reason to love DS9 as a show, if not the fandom. But eeewwww in addition to presiding over genocide (like that’s not enough) Dukat is a sexual predator and a serial rapist and he has stans, wow. I don’t think his history of rape was as blatant in the earlier seasons though it was certainly implied, but even then he was creepy as hell pursuing Kira. Terrible as Winn is, I’d be hard-pressed to say she’s worse than Dukat and felt awful at how she was tricked by him. And that’s another long rant on how misogynistic the show was toward women who dared to enjoy sex.

@seguun Well, maybe. He certainly had flashier material, more expected material for a bad guy/protagonist’s rival. On the other hand, Winn’s brand of evil is more understated and also more… prosaic? I’d call her more corrupt than Dukat’s brand of out-and-out evil. Hers was a more nuanced look at corruption, not like Dukat’s which comes about more rarely through a perfect storm of power, policy, and personality–the sort of evil that doesn’t happen unless there is a severe power disparity, unless there is a decision to use that disparity for destructive exploitation, and unless there are (and there always are) abusive personalities to carry out that exploitation.

Winn’s brand of evil, or corruption, on the other hand, can happen in a broader range of situations. In fact, Dukat was at his most Winn-like when he turned internally toward Cardassia, as a self-serving politician, than when he was dealing externally with Bajor as a past colonial overlord. Like Winn, Dukat resisted foreign occupation, then supported/led a civilian government. These are positives as far as they go, but we also know that both Winn and Dukat were ultimately serving themselves. I can think of a lot of politicians who would be Dukats if given the chance, but in most situations they have to settle for being Winns. Dukat himself was more like Winn in Cardassia between withdrawal from Bajor and the Dominion takeover.

I think the banality of corruption is one reason some don’t see Winn as a villain and thought Dukat was being redeemed–because these characters were in the normal work of politics, whether in operating government domestically or fighting against foreign threats. The thing is, of course, they were using the workings of government to lift themselves up and serve their own ends at the expense of their peoples. Dukat again does the more obviously evil thing by giving Cardassia to the Dominion, but Winn, too, chose her advancement over the good of others and of Bajor throughout the show.

Their parallels are shown in their relationships with Sisko, too. Dukat may have hated and opposed Sisko openly while Winn was in a position where she had to give lip service to and be friendly with Sisko as the Emissary, but it’s clear from early on that she hates Sisko and thinks she deserves the love and reverence he gets.

It’s deeply fitting and satisfying then, that despite their differences, and indeed their enmity, Dukat and Winn end up at the same place at the end of Season 7–serving the pah-wraiths and destroying Bajor. One is an open racist and unrepentent genocidaire while the other is the spiritual leader of Bajor sworn to defend the world and its faith, yet they reach the same conclusion: Bajor, and the Prophets, deserve to be destroyed for not exalting and appreciating them enough. Dukat’s evil and Winn’s corruption may have taken different forms, but they were both equally destructive in the end and, indeed, Winn’s role was more crucial than Dukat’s.

Winn’s real final arc begins not when she is cruelly deceived and violated by the pah-wraiths and Dukat, but when she learns of the deception and responds to it. Rather than look back on her life and her faith and withdraw to make some much-needed changes in her life and heal from the spiritual and emotional trauma of what she was put through, she yet again decided power was more important and made the ultimate, fatal choice.

Winn’s story was different than Dukat’s, certainly, but in many ways I thought it was a more universal story with greater subtlety and nuance. I think together they made for a more rounded look at the nature of evil in politics.