I mean if he’s truly redeemed and becomes good he probably will suffer from crushing pain and self-hatred. How could someone who’s actually good live with the things he did as Kylo Ren?
Tag: redemption
notbythehairofmyfinnyfinnfinn:
“Tell him I’m trying to redeem the person who slashed him across the back and put him into a coma. Can you tell him that for me please? Thanks.”
Someone finally said it.
Rian Johnson is a fucking hack.
y’all forgot luke redeemed vader who tortured leia, had a hand in blowing up her home planet, killed obi wan and froze han in carbonite?
Do you think that Finn wouldn’t be at least slightly sympathetic if he knew what was actually happening to Kylo Ren, and what had happened to him in the past? You think Finn wouldn’t be against brainwashing and abuse, regardless of the target?
Awww lookit that, Finn is worthless unless he forgives and props up the man who bullied and would have killed him!
Abuse? Not an excuse even if it happened. Brainwashing? Total bullshit. Not only did Kylo disobey Snoke’s order in TFA, he murderized the pickled prune in TLJ. And still wanted to murder his mother and all the Resistance survivors.
Has Finn had any interaction, cannonicaly, other than the fight on star killer base? Honest question. Because I don’t think Kylo has ever bullied Finn. I feel like that’s all on Phasma. That’s not to say that Kylo didn’t try and kill Finn.
Also I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Rey trying to redeem someone inspite of their flaws, pretty fucking big ones I’ll admit. I think it shows her as an inherently good person who believes that there is good in everyone.
Was this question directed at me? Because as far as I can tell you
didn’t reblog from me, meaning I couldn’t have seen it in my notes even
if notes in general weren’t acting up.
Anyway, please see the third and fourth gifs in a post I did about Finn and Kylo (link). Kylo Ren very directly looked at Finn, then as he turned to go unfroze the blaster beam from Poe’s rifle so it struck a pole close to where Finn was standing, showering him with sparks and startling him. (In the original Finn jumped even harder than in the gif I made–I cut out some frames to make the gif smaller.) So yeah, casual, cruel bullying.
War crimes are not a character flaw, jsyk. What was Finn supposed to do if asked to stay in the same organization as the person who nearly killed him, who is known to have been treacherous and murderous before? What was Poe supposed to do if asked to work with someone who murdered a village before his eyes and tortured him so painfully that his screams shattered the recording droid’s sensory capsules (link)? I understand that Rey meant well, but it wasn’t a well-thought-out decision at all.
After #MeToo, the men are planning a redemption tour
On Thursday, Tina Brown confirmed to reporters that she had been approached to produce a redemption series, in which men outed by the #MeToo movement could attempt to rebuild their reputations.
According to gossip website Page Six, “Tina said she’d just been emailed about co-hosting a new show with Charlie Rose, in which they’d interview Louis C.K., Matt Lauer and others caught up in the #MeToo sexual harassment scandals.”
In a piece published on Women’s Agenda this week, writer Kristine Ziwica warns against the inevitable festival of comeback toursplanned by men recently disgraced by revelations from the #MeToo movement. From Louis C.K. to Matt Lauer and even Harvey Weinstein, it appears the wheels are already in motion to smoothly transition these men back into public life. After all, they only have all of human history from which to pick countless other examples of men and their reputations achieving full rehabilitation no matter what their crime.
An article in The Hollywood Reporter recently invited comedy club owners to speculate on (not if, but) when Louis C.K. will be able to return to the stage. In November last year, C.K. was finally forced to admit that long standing rumours of his sexual misconduct were true and that he had indulged in numerous acts of impropriety that included masturbating in front of (female) colleagues without their permission. Louis Faranda, executive producer at Caroline’s, said he would give C.K. a platform “tomorrow”, but predicts he’ll be back within a year, “making fun of his mistakes”. Comedian Sean Patton has a suggestion for how he can best do this: “He should do an hour special that breaks down why it was wrong and how he’s made amends.”
Isn’t it great to know that years of abuse and denial can be so easily overturned by a few well chosen words and the willingness of a disgraced person to “heal” publicly?
It depressed me to read C.K. fellow colleagues (most of them men) unconsciously collaborating to restore their friend’s former glory, but it certainly didn’t surprise me. As much as our society might like to claim it opposes men’s violence and misogyny, the reality is that the collective is at best largely indifferent to it and, at worst, angry that these things can be used to “tarnish” a man’s reputation.
Think of Brendan Fevola. In 2006, Fevola took a non-consensual shower photograph of then-lover Lara Bingle (who was 19 years old at the time) and sent it to his friends and teammates. The existence of the photograph came to light in 2010, when sources said the photo had spent the previous four years being shared across mobile phones in the football world. If Fevola suffered any damage to his reputation, it was short lived. A rehabilitative stint on Channel Ten’s I’m A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here! led to Fevola being employed as a presenter on Fox FM, where his contract was recently extended for another two years.
Then there’s Boy George, the British import who commands a six-figure salary on Australia’s franchise of The Voice. In 2009, the pop star was given a 15-month sentence for falsely imprisoning a male escort by handcuffing him to a wall and beating him with a metal chain. The gravity of this crime and its impact on the victim can’t be overstated, yet the career of Boy George continues with, if anything, even greater steam than it enjoyed before his conviction.
When I raise my concerns about the ease with which male celebrities recover from allegations or even convictions for abuse, I’m often met with a strange kind of territorial anger. Is he never allowed to work again?! people ask. How long does he have to suffer for his one mistake?!
Both questions, while easily answered, raise further questions of their own. First, of course men accused or convicted of sexual or physical assault should be allowed to earn a living. But why should that living automatically be in the same financially and socially lucrative fields they worked in before they made the choice to exert violence and power over another person? Why should this work include endorsement deals, celebrity platforms and influence? No-one deserves these things, especially not people who’ve actively caused harm to others.
Second, sexual assault and/or physical violence are not arbitrary “mistakes”. They’re choices that have wide-reaching consequences for their victims. Framing them as simple mistakes is how the behaviour of men in particular is massaged and excused to limit any negative impact they have on their lives.
Fame should not be used to insulate men from the consequences of their actions. And men accused of such misconduct shouldn’t be considered absolved of the gravity of their crimes just because they’ve spent a bit of time in the naughty corner.
As a society, we act as if one of the worst things we can do is ostracise men even when they’ve violated another human being. But if we want the legacy of #MeToo and the testimonies of victims of male violence to actually mean something, we have to be firmer in our treatment of the people who’ve inflicted this pain and suffering on them. If we stopped allowing men to get away with anything they like, maybe some of them would stop doing anything they wanted.
When our fetishization of redemption bleeds over into reality…
“We’re in the midst of a reckoning. It’s what toxic masculinity’s own medicine tastes like. And people should allow the consequences to unfold, regardless of how it affects those they consider to be friends. The only way to enforce seismic, cultural change in the way men relate to women is to draw a line deep in the sand and say: This is what we will no longer tolerate. You’re either with our bodies or against our bodies. The punishment for harassment is you disappear. The punishment for rape is you disappear. The punishment for masturbation in front of us is you disappear. The punishment for coercion is you disappear.”
— Opinion | Amber Tamblyn: I’m Not Ready for the Redemption of Men – The New York Times (via brutereason)
Maybe this is a cold take but I’m serving it up anyway
R/eylos and K/ylo stans always spout off like “Star Wars is about ReDeMpTiOn!!!!!” to justify why Rey and k/ylo should bone or why k/ylo should be redeemed but tbh it’s bullshit?
Star Wars is not about redemption, at least not for redemption’s sake. First, Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader was never redeemed. George Lucas himself said that Anakin/Vader was not redeemed, nor could he ever be. He returned to the light. That’s not the same as redemption. People like to cite Anakin’s journey as thematic proof for why evil characters can/should be redeemed, but the argument is invalid because he never was.
And he only returned to the light because of Luke. Luke’s unconditional love connected with that last minute shred of humanity, and that was what brought him back to the light. Had it not been for Luke, Vader never would have returned to the light. His turning was not his accomplishment, it was Luke’s. I will refer to Anakin/Vader’s return to the light as his “redemption” henceforth, but only for the sake of concision.
Now, even if we accept the argument that Anakin was redeemed, that still does not mean Star Wars is “about redemption”. Star Wars, at least the theme of the original trilogy, which we commonly consider the theme of the franchise, is about choice. Luke’s choice to bring Leia the Death Star plans. Luke’s choice to disobey Yoda and go to Cloud City to save his friends. Luke’s choice to disregard Yoda and Obi-Wan’s view of Jedi philosophy. Luke’s choice to offer forgiveness and redemption to Vader. Luke’s choice to cast aside his lightsaber. Vader’s choice to sacrifice himself to save his son.
Redemption is a potential side effect of choice. It’s not a precursor and it’s certainly not automatic. A person isn’t redeemed just because they’re sorry. A person isn’t redeemed because they tried to make amends. You don’t get to choose redemption. Redemption is given to you. Vader wasn’t given redemption. He was given a choice. Once. By his son, out of love and compassion.
K/ylo was given a choice to return to the light. Twice. By two different people. Both times he refused and then killed or tried to kill the people who offered him. This man has made his choice TWICE, AFTER choosing to fall to the dark side in the first place. Why should he be offered yet another chance? And why would he expected to make a different choice? And even if he did, why should he be considered eligible for redemption? He can’t un-murder all those innocent people, he can’t un-torture Rey and Poe.
K/ylo Ren does not want to be redeemed. K/ylo Ren does not deserve to be redeemed. K/ylo Ren made his own evil choices and clings to the dark side. Thematically speaking, K/ylo Ren is a sub-optimal candidate for “redemption”. Practically speaking, redeeming that slithering trash heap after all he’s done would just be yet another case of powerful (white) men not being held responsible for their actions because they say they’re sowwy.
“One who has fallen so far and done so much does not deserve redemption.”
-Kreia/Darth Traya-Arren Kae
YES. Star Wars is about choice. It’s always been about choice.
Great Meta.
If its choice, what if he chooses light at some point? if he chooses darkness, the answer is obvious, but what if he starts doing good? Is there nothing that he can do to be redeemed, or is dying for the cause the only way, or prison, or what? I’m super curious about how the powers that be will do, Its almost like they have painted themselves into a corner, and no matter what, there will be a bad outcome. The last Skywalker dies, or he gets away with murder.
1. He’s not necessarily the last Skywalker
2. No, there is nothing he can do to be redeemed. It doesn’t matter how much good he does. Even if he dies, he won’t be redeemed. He can’t un-do genocide. He can’t un-do mass murder. He can’t un-do war crimes. He can’t un-do torture.
Redemption is a matter of undoing, and for the right reasons. If you can’t un-do the harm you’ve caused, or if you did it selfishly, you can’t be redeemed. His death would not make up for the hundreds of lives he’s directly responsible for taking and the billions of lives he indirectly took. He could never die enough times to be redeemed for the suffering he caused. He could never spend long enough in prison to be redeemed for the pain he created.
And the thing is… Kylo Ren living happily ever after with Rey (or whoever) after being “redeemed” is a contradition in terms. Even aside from the fact that he can’t be redeemed, even if we take the word in the sense of him becoming a better man and seeing the wrong in what he did… what happiness can there ever be for a GOOD man who has committed genocide, mass murder, and torture? How would he get a single peaceful night’s sleep? If such a man can live with himself, if he can be happy and content and in love with one of his victims… then he is obviously not a good man. He is obviously not sorry for what he did, has found some way to rationalize or blame someone else for his deeds.
Either Kylo Ren can be happy or he can be good, but he can’t be both. Chances are he’ll be neither, because happiness is a really dicey proposition after all the misery he’s caused.
notbythehairofmyfinnyfinnfinn:
“Tell him I’m trying to redeem the person who slashed him across the back and put him into a coma. Can you tell him that for me please? Thanks.”
Someone finally said it.
Rian Johnson is a fucking hack.
y’all forgot luke redeemed vader who tortured leia, had a hand in blowing up her home planet, killed obi wan and froze han in carbonite?
Do you think that Finn wouldn’t be at least slightly sympathetic if he knew what was actually happening to Kylo Ren, and what had happened to him in the past? You think Finn wouldn’t be against brainwashing and abuse, regardless of the target?
Awww lookit that, Finn is worthless unless he forgives and props up the man who bullied and would have killed him!
Abuse? Not an excuse even if it happened. Brainwashing? Total bullshit. Not only did Kylo disobey Snoke’s order in TFA, he murderized the pickled prune in TLJ. And still wanted to murder his mother and all the Resistance survivors.
I’ll take “shit I never said” for $500, Alex.
Implying Finn is unempathetic and cold unless he forgives and helps Kylo? Yeah you did.
No, I said he’d be against abuse and brainwashing. I said he’d probably understand, at least partially. If you don’t think he’d forgive Kylo Ren, that’s reasonable.
And let’s not forget, it was antis that brought Kylo Ren onto the post, not ~Reylos.~
So he’s pro-abuse and brainwashing now unless he “understands” the man who almost killed him and tortured his friends? How nice.
Finn was literally abused and brainwashed by the First Order and Kylo Ren who was a part of this process. Kylo Ren is one of the leaders of the FO, he’s directly responsible for the abuse and brainwashing Finn went through as a child. In TFA, Kylo Ren had the fucking gall to actually be angry at Finn for breaking his brainwashing and running away from his abusers. Kylo Ren wanted Finn to keep being abused and brainwashed.
I have no doubt that Finn is against abuse and brainwashing but even if it’s somehow revealed that Kylo Ren suffered any of these things too (which I sincerely doubt), Finn has absolutely 0 reason to try to understand or be sympathetic toward one of his abuser and implying that he or that anyone need to do this is disgusting. If anything Finn would probably hate Kylo Ren more and understand him less if it was ever revealed that Kylo Ren went through something similar and then decided to just go on to perpetuate abuse and brainwashing on a fucking industrial level. But there is nothing in canon saying that Kylo Ren went through this any way so that point is moot.
Also : Don’t use Finn to prop your fav white character.
(and while i’m at it, the difference with vader was that he was luke’s father not some rando he had just met AND luke did not redeem vader for his crimes against leia or his crime against everyone else in the galaxy : vader saving luke and luke forgiving him only redeemed vader for his crimes against luke specifically. vader/anakin could never be redeemed for all of his crimes, and neither could kylo ren because they both passed the point of no return a long time ago when they started participating in genocides – in any case, what luke did in the OT was nowhere near the bullshit we were subjected to in TLJ)
^^^Exactly. In support of your point about Vader and for all the dumbasses clutching their Vader pearls, let me just drop a George Lucas quote and get out of OP’s notes: “Anakin can’t be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he’s caused. He doesn’t right the wrongs, but he stops the horror.“
People have been telling me I don’t know what Star Wars is about, because it’s clearly about REDEMPTION and that’s why Kylo Ren is going to return to the Light somehow. With Rey’s help, obviously.
But the problem is…. it isn’t? Redemption is not really a major theme in Star Wars franchise.
Sure, Vader redeems himself, but he pays for it with his life. And by the time of TFA we are told his redemption appearently didn’t stick as common knowledge, because his own grandson hails him as some sort of Paragon for the Dark Side and asks him for guidance.
So… one (1) major villain who “redeemed” himself by dying. Two, if you count Ventress from Clone Wars. And that’s it. There is absolutely no “redemption theme” in the whole prequel trilogy, none.
You know what is a major theme in Star Wars franchise, Karen? Hope. Family. “Fascism is bad” is also pretty high up there. Redemption? Nah.
reylos: if anakin can be redeemed so can kylo!!!!
george lucas: “Anakin can’t be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he’s caused. He doesn’t right the wrongs, he [just] stops the horror.”
Idk why y’all would think a stormtrooper rebellion is in any way the same as a Kale rom redemption arc lmao. One group was taken from birth and conditioned to live and die by the First Order. While the other…turned to Snoke in his quest for power and spat on any chance of redemption when he killed his father. And is actively rejecting the call to the light side, as you see in TFA. So like…let’s not go ahead and act as though stormtroopers rebelling and making the choice to say no. And getting that choice at all is the same as a white man being redeemed for killing countless people in his quest for power.
Also while I’m on the subject it is not at all easy to throw off years of conditioning lmao. Idk why I have to say this but no it isn’t simple. That is why it’s so amazing that Finn did it in TFA. That is part of the reason why Finn is such an amazing character. You can’t just look at people who’ve been forced into a system of abuse and tell them “just say no. It’s easy.” What the fuck is wrong with you.
A storyline like Finn’s. Like the stormtroopers themselves. Is powerful. It’s amazing. When treated with the nuance and importance that it deserves. Don’t try to tell me that this kind of storyline, this theme of rejecting your abusers and getting back the power to choose is in any way comparable to redeeming the so far unredeemable (and who doesn’t want to be redeemed!!) white man.
L.J.'s Obsessions 