themandalorianwolf:

Rey’s future after TLJ

Maybe this needs to be said by someone who loves and will always love the idea of Ray Skywalker…I didn’t think it for years, but after @lj-writes made a damn good meta, I think my mind has changed. Rey’s heritage was solved way back in TFA. I want to start off by saying this isn’t me acknowledging TLJ as a good movie/sequel, it’s making a theory that if JJ Abrams was the executive producer of TLJ, than regardless of how much power Ruin Johnson said he had, JJ would’ve had to had at least a minor input on some things due to the fact that Bob Eiger more than likely hired JJ to do episode XI way before it was announced to the public and they had already lost 3 directors to creative differences.

Let’s begin

Rey was told back in TFA that whoever left her on Jakku was never coming back. Now Kylo knows this, we as the audience know this. We know Kylo Ren was lying about her parents being junkies, but that’s not the point of the scene. The point of the scene is once again Rey was telling herself something that wasn’t true. Rey can’t keep relying on others to fix her problems for her and has to start looking at the life realistically.

If whoever left her on Jakku still hasn’t come back after all these years, they are never coming back. If Luke Skywalker, the man who turned Vader, couldn’t turn his nephew, and if Han Solo couldn’t turn his very own son himself, and there was nothing Rey could’ve ever done. Kylo Ren killed his father in cold blood to achieve his mission, he wasn’t going to stop now and he’d do whatever it took to finish the mission.

But just as Maz said: there is someone who still could come back for her and that person is Finn. The young man who had fallen from the sky and who had journeyed with her through an ocean of stars. Finn Head rest his life to keep her safe. He had gone back to face the very people who had taken everything from him, who were the biggest threat to the galaxy, who would kill him on sight. Finn went through all of that just to come back for Rey.

It didn’t matter where she came from, because Finn didn’t care who she was or where she came from, he just cared about her.

It might not of been immediately, but Rey knows that she needs to find a purpose in life. She needs to define herself by her actions and move forward. Rey goes to Luke. Now that Finn’s out of commission, she goes to the only other person who may be able to understand what she’s going through.

Whether it was intentional or not, Luke becomes a father figure, a mentor, and a friend to Rey. Metaphorically or literally, Rey is Luke Skywalker’s legacy. Not a legacy of a God or of a fighting machine, but the legacy of a person who always had done the right thing for the people they loved. Thanks to Luke he showed her that nothing will ever stop her from fighting for the people that she loves. She belongs somewhere and that is with Finn and their friends.

Who Rey is or where she comes from, doesn’t change who Rey is. Skywalker, junkie kid, or a daughter who was loved by good people that died. Rey’s purpose was finding herself and she did. Now ahead of her is a future that she is choosing to fight for alongside Finn, the person who never wanted anything from her, treated her with respect, and always came back. Rey I think Rey’s smile after Finn is realizing that she is finally home and has found her family.

I’m not saying that Rey is or isn’t anything. I’m saying that these theories shouldn’t be brought into Ep 9 regardless if Rey was a junkie kid , random daughter, or a Skywalker.

What matters now is the future she’s choosing with Finn and the cause they are both fighting for.

I’m not saying Ray can’t be anything, I’m saying I doubt they’re going to return to it in the movies at least. At best things will probably just be left ambiguous or implied.

At this point I’m fine with Rey being a Schrödinger’s Skywalker, basically, and for there to be enough holes in her “official” origins for people to headcanon whatever they like. It may be the only way to be make everyone semi-happy without having the issue become distracting. Like Daisy said, it doesn’t matter. Rey is not defined by her family but by her choices, and by the people she has chosen to belong with.

Your Rey meta was pretty damn good and helped me see Rey & Rey in a new light. Finn is dealing with PTSD & emotions he had to surprise. Rey is dealing with childhood abandonment and dealing with being vulnerable. They want and need the other, but both TLA & TLJ proves that they aren’t dependent on that need. Unintentional or not, Finn and Rey caring and loving each other is probably one of the few things that connect both TFA & TLJ. Anyway A+ on that Meta

I got an A+! 😍 Thank you for your kind words. This is why I think Finn and Rey’s is the best male-female fictional relationship in years, possibly ever, because they both have their respective arcs and hurdles they need to overcome. People who think they are boring and conflict-free aren’t paying attention, or don’t care about conflict other than mistreatment between the man and woman. The central conflict in Finn and Rey’s relationship is that they both struggle with intimacy due to their traumas, and both need to grow into the heroes the galaxy needs them to be. That is the kind of relationship conflict loving couples have, not things like torture and manipulation.

Rey is selfish and flawed (and that’s a good thing)

I immensely enjoyed Mara( @jewishcomeradebot)’s recent Rey-centric meta (link with my addition),
and the central thing I appreciate about her take on Rey is that she
doesn’t posit Rey as this vaguely positive altruistic figure. Rather her
read of Rey is fiercely self-interested and focused on her own desire, a
rare perspective in fandom. Mara’s posts helped me bring Rey into clear
focus as a character for the first time.

I think people’s
perception of Rey is distorted in part because we tend to attribute
altruism as the primary virtue for women, both real and fictional. This
is reflected in the characterizations of the Star Wars heroines as well:
Leia and Padmé are defined by their dedication to the well-being of
others, or the greater good. They have things they want for themselves,
primarily close relationships such as romance, but their primary driving
motivations are to save others through armed struggle or politics.

I
get that female characters being driven primarily by larger galactical
matters rather than romance was and to an extent is still revolutionary.
I don’t mean to detract from anyone’s love of characters like Leia and
Padmé, and I love them myself. In fact, it is almost impossible not
to love them because there is nothing controversial about them and what
bad things did come out of their decisions (such as Padmé marrying
Anakin post-Sand People massacre) came out of the men in their lives
being trash.

That said, I am also dissatisfied by heroine
motivations that basically go, “she loves the entire UNIVERSE and wants
what’s best for it.” It’s a continuation of the old stereotypes of women
being selfless nurturers, just with more politics and guns. While the
politics and guns are arguably progressive, these arcs are in stark
contrast to those of male protagonists who get to want things for
themselves.

Luke is a good case in point. His goal was primarily
for himself, to leave Tatooine and to become “a Jedi like my father
before me.” He ended up helping the Rebellion and defeating the Empire
along the way, but it was his personal goal to claim his heritage and
realize himself as a Jedi that his story revolved around. Anakin’s
ultimate goal was to keep his loved ones safe, which can be framed
altruistically but in the end turned out to be about himself and his
trauma, not the people he said he loved. Luke’s goal could also have
turned out badly if he had chosen his desire to connect with his father
over the desire to be a true Jedi and joined Vader. Anakin’s goal could
have turned out well if he had chosen to let go of his need to control
Padmé’s fate and overcome Palpatine’s temptation.

Luke and
Anakin’s self-interested goals were thus morally neutral and could have
gone either way depending on their choices, unlike Leia’s and Padmé’s
goals which were inherently moral. Framed more precisely, Luke’s and
Anakin’s goals had conflicts built into them that led to a moral
dilemma, such as “do I kill my father or join him?” Leia and Padmé, on
the other hand, were never seriously morally conflicted. The boys choose
between good and evil, but the girls are all good.

In
Jyn from Rogue One we see a female protagonist with a conflicted goal,
but with a thumb, no scratch that, a giant boulder on the scale. Jyn
wants to stay away from the Empire that destroyed her life, but behind
her trauma and cynicism she wants to reconnect with her father and the
love she once knew as a child. Well guess what? We’re going to shut down
her desire to run away by blackmailing her and taking away her agency.
Also her dad was working for the Rebels all along. Saw, her foster dad,
also wants her to save the Rebellion. And, with her father gone, it is
only through the Rebellion that she will carry on his legacy and find
the love and connection she yearns for. Yay for choice!

So while
Jyn has the appearance of a conflicted goal that she wants for herself,
the actual story pushes her toward the altruistic choice for the
greater good. If anything Jyn has even less choice than Leia and Padmé,
who at least chose their paths and did not have to be strong-armed.
Leia’s and Padmé’s choices were in the distant background, however, and
the stories did not hinge on their moral choices like they did on Luke’s
and Anakin’s. As far as the stories are concerned Leia and Padmé doing
the right things are simple constants.

In this tradition it’s no
wonder that a lot of us have trouble seeing Rey as wanting something for
herself and striving for her own goal. The proud but chequered
tradition of SW women, to say nothing of the cultural background that
casts women as either caring angels or depraved villains, predisposes us
to see her as another altruistic, or driven-to-be-altruistic, heroine
in Leia’s, Padmé’s, or even Jyn’s mold.

Rey’s actual goals are
very different from Leia’s or Padmé’s, however. Much like a younger Luke
she dreams of heroism and admires the legends of the galaxy including
Luke and Han, but her primary goal was not to reconnect with her
heritage by becoming a hero herself. In fact she had no reason to
believe, though the fandom may have, she had any kind of heritage or
famous parents. If heroism were her primary goal she would have jumped
at the chance to leave Jakku and join the Resistance, but instead what
does she want to do after she was forced to leave? She wants to go back.
She doesn’t want to be special, nor does she believe she is. She
just wants her parents back. A special destiny was thrust upon her
against her will, not because she sought it out.

The character
whose driving motivation is most like Rey’s is Anakin Skywalker, the
“Chosen One” who was taken from his mother and spent a lifetime aching
from the loss. Anakin may have been a hero, but that was a job he did
because he was told to, not because he was driven to it by his own needs
and desires. His underlying desire was to love and be loved again, and
after being separated from his mother he found that in Padmé. When his
own fears and Palpatine’s deception led him to dread losing Padmé, he
chose to take Palpatine’s offer of ultimate power to avoid losing his
loved ones ever again.

Rey’s goal, then, like Anakin’s, is a)
something she wants for herself and b) something that could be moral or
immoral depending on her choice. It is not an altruistic and inherently
good goal but a self-interested, morally neutral one. This is the Star
Wars heroine who is the protagonist of her own story with the agency to
match, and not a helplessly good inspiration and role model.

That
is not to say her arc was necessarily handled well. The events of TFA
take away her ability to return to Jakku by having her knocked out and
kidnapped by the bad guy, much like RO did to Jyn’s ability to avoid the
Empire-Rebellion conflict by having her jailbroken, knocked out, and
kidnapped by the good guys.

Obviously both TFA and RO would
have been boring stories if Rey and Jyn were simply allowed to
return/disappear, but the stories could have been designed differently
so the heroines had opportunities to make actual choices while still
engaging with the plot. Rey, like Finn, could have returned to the fight
of her own free will. The Rebels could have dangled a potential lead to
finding Jyn’s father to lure her in. Creators make choices when they
tell stories, and they chose to advance–or fail to advance–these
female protagonists’ stories by using tired kidnap plots.

Thankfully
Rey did get the chance to make a choice at the climax of TFA, when she
chose to take up the lightsaber and fight Kylo Ren instead of using Finn
as a distraction to run away and find the Millennium Falcon on her own.
Of course the outcome was hardly in doubt; she was clearly an important
character with newly emerging Force powers, her kindness toward others
was an established trait, and her preexisting bond with Finn had grown
nearly unbreakable when he came back for her. No one thought Rey might
turn her back and run, and so there was no suspense.

From an
in-story perspective, however, it was still a choice and a difficult one
for her. Ren is a powerful Force user, one she had just managed to get
away from, one who had tortured her, whom she had watched murder his own
father and cruelly cut Finn down. Her mysterious Force abilities, which
allowed her to push him out of her mind and escape him, were a source
of uncertainty and fear. She had vowed to Maz never to touch Luke’s
lightsaber again after it gave her traumatic visions.

Most of
all, there was her prior drive to go back to Jakku where her parents
could find her. She would never have a chance of seeing them again if
she were killed or captured here, or if the duel simply took too long
and the planet exploded with them on it. Given her history and personal
goal, running for it while she could was actually a pretty logical
choice.

So why did she stay and fight? Had she given up on her goal to reunite with her parents and belong with people who loved her?

I
would say her goal was still constant, the path to reaching it had
simply shifted. To borrow from Maz, the belonging Rey sought was not
behind her on Jakku, it was ahead, and she had found it in Finn. Finn
was the first person in memory to ask her if she was all right, the one
she begged to stay with her, the one who came back for her. He was the
love and belonging she had sought. He was worth fighting and dying for.

This
is another distinction between a self-interested goal and an altruistic
one, by the way, and why Rey’s story doesn’t revolve around Finn or
Anakin’s around Padmé even if Finn and Padmé, respectively, were key to
their goals. Story-wise Rey’s goal isn’t to do whatever it takes to
defend Finn. Rather she is doing whatever she can to defend Finn because
she is pursuing her own goal through him–to be loved and cherished as
she never got to be as a child. Under the right circumstances the person
to fulfill her goal could shift, as it shifted from her parents to
Finn, and potentially could shift again. And that is a key point of TLJ,
as I will discuss below.

So how do we know Rey’s path to her goal
shifted from her parents to Finn? Two points: First, after the ground
opened up, separating her and Ren, she ran to find Finn but not to
escape with him or seek help. She lay down to, for all intents and
purposes, die with him. She did not try to find the Falcon, did not try
to carry Finn away, did not try to attract the attention of passing
vessels while the planet disintegrated around them. She felt for his
heartbeat, wept over him, then lay down on his chest sobbing in a way
that reminded me of nothing so much as Juliet collapsing on top of
Romeo.

The second point is that after she and Finn were rescued
and she was free to go back to Jakku if she wished, she instead went to
Ahch-To to bring Luke back. And why? She’s helping the Resistance, sure,
as she was before, but how does that tie into her established goal?

I
think TFA was heavily setting up a deep emotional bond between Luke and
Rey, with her literally dreaming about his island, her Force vision
when she touched Anakin’s lightsaber, her immediately thinking of Luke
when Maz said the belonging she sought lay ahead and not behind, and
their incredibly emotional meeting at the end.

However, since TLJ
borked all that, I now think Rey was helping the Resistance primarily
for Finn much as he helped them for her sake. This way Rey’s departure
still ties into her story goal and makes her a protagonist, not a
passive plot point that bounces around whereever she’s told to go. This
way Rey becomes a self-interested character with potential for moral
conflict, and not yet another entirely altruistic, inherently good
heroine who does whatever is in the greater good.

Think about it.
Finn is injured and needs intensive medical care. He has nowhere else to
go, no one else both willing and able to take care of him and protect
him. The FO if possible hates him worse than they did before for his
role in destroying their superweapon. Yet the Resistance is a target
too, and they need Luke. Finn and the Resistance are on the same
storm-tossed boat now, and if Rey is to think about any kind of future
with Finn she has to save the Resistance first.

If you view TLJ in
this frame, this is the movie where Rey has an actual self-interested
goal and takes actions that could be morally complex. If we posit that
her goal is consistent from the end of TFA and she hasn’t become a
completely different person between one movie and the next, she still
wants the same thing as she did at the end of TFA: Save the Resistance
and protect Finn. She thought Luke was key to that, but he refused.

In
her desperation she turned to Kylo Ren because, again, she has a
self-interested goal–be with Finn–that could lead to moral or immoral
outcomes depending on her choices. She’s not being an all-good and
all-altruistic figure whose sole wish is to save Ben’s soul or the
universe as we expect of our heroines. Rather she is desperate to
achieve her goal and willing to push the moral boundaries in service of
it.

I can also answer the criticisms of Rey being
out-of-character. Daisy Ridley has said in a cast interview that she
played Rey as always thinking of Han on some level, which seems at odds
with her playing nice with Han’s murderer. On the other hand, what did
Han die trying to do? Redeem his son.

Therefore I read Daisy’s
comment to mean that Rey is still grieving Han–it’s only been a few
days since she watched him murdered, after all–and wants to believe
that he did not die in vain. If she can turn his son, then she can prove
that Han was right and his life was not wasted.

But why should
that grief take the form of being so solicitous to Kylo Ren, the man who
not only killed Han but hurt her and Finn so badly, in addition to
numerous other crimes? Isn’t that out of character for Rey, who is so
strong and a fighter, who fought back in rage at the end of TFA?

Rey
is not primarily a fighter, though. Those are the parts we remember the
most vividly, but she is primarily a survivor who adapts to her
circumstances. That means employing whatever means necessary to survive,
including fighting if the need arises, but also being passive and
accommodating if that serves better.

We have in fact watched Rey
be passive in the face of numerous wrongs done to her in her
interactions with a character who shaped her life: Unkar Plutt. I mean
my Reylutt ship manifesto (link)
may have been a joke, but her interactions with Plutt do a great deal
to foreshadow her interactions with Kylo Ren. Plutt was an abusive
authority figure who kept her on starvation rations and systematically
exploited her, but she still stayed with him for over a decade in
seeming passivity. We see her visibly swallow down her rage when he cut
her portions yet again and can only imagine how many times she had to do
so over the years. The only time we see her fight back physically was
when he used violence first by sending his goons to seize BB-8.

The
thing is, much like saying someone can’t be a victim of abuse if they
fight back, it’s also inaccurate and hurtful to say the only “right” way
to react to abuse is by visibly fighting back, or, worse, that you’re
not really a victim unless you’re angry. A lot of victims are forced to
stay passive, for the sake of their own physical and psychological
safety, in the face of mistreatment because that is oftentimes how abuse
works. Rey, especially in her early years, could not have survived as
she did if she were always dwelling on how she was being treated and
lashing out. She had to take a variety of strategies including passive
waiting and patience in the face of injustices, not just fighting back
against immediate threats, to survive deprivation and exploitation.

How
is this relevant to her scenes with Kylo Ren? When she was actively
defending herself with Force and violence he was an immediate threat to
her, to the Resistance, and to Finn. In the Force(d) Bond situation, on
the other hand, she had no way to get away from him but at the same time
he did not know where she was and could not get to her. Raging at him
might be satisfying, but was hardly practical especially as he became
increasingly useful to her. She had, after all, a lot of practice
burying her resentment for the sake of survival and her own goal of
reuniting with her family. Once the threat moved from acute to a
“merely” persistent thing, a different set of reflexes took over.

Another
fact about abuse is that the victim may traumatically bond with their
aggressor. It is how people psychologically survives at times, gaining a
sense of control in a situtation where they have very little, believing
that you can be safe and not be hurt anymore by gaining your
tormentor’s approval and love. Subjectively it can feel a lot like love,
too, because this is a powerful psychological mechanism for our
survival and, in the immediate situation, our subjective mental
well-being. It’s one of those things that make the unbearable bearable.

This
was another way that Rey’s personal, selfish goal could have led to an
immoral or unhealthy outcome: She could have mistaken Kylo’s
manipulation and her own traumatic bond to him as the love and belonging
she sought, and chosen to stay with him at the end of the movie.

In
this Rey closely parallels Anakin, who accepted Palpatine’s offer of
power as a substitute for love and so became Palpatine’s servant. Her
overriding goal of knowing love and safety once again had transferred
once before already, from waiting for her family on Jakku to protecting
Finn and reuniting with him. Could it transfer once again, as
self-interested rather than selfless goals can, this time to a
fundamentally destructive relationship that only had a facade of love
and belonging?

I think this was the reason, little as I may like
it, that Rey was separated from Finn for most of the movie and why Luke
treated her so poorly. If she hadn’t been isolated from Finn, or had
been nurtured better by Luke, she would have been much more centered
and healthier and there would have been no suspense about the outcome
when she reached out to Kylo on board the Supremacy. I would dispute
how well it worked, but I think that was the intention. 

Ultimately
Rey made the right choice, as we know. The point as far as this essay
is concerned, though, is that she COULD have made the wrong choice as
Anakin did in the pursuit of her own goal. This makes Rey the first Star
Wars heroine in the theatrical releases with a genuine moral choice to
make, who is not all-good and all-nurturing and therefore morally
unassailable like Leia and Padmé, and who is not strong-armed both by
her “friends” and the story to make the right choice as Jyn was.

Like
Anakin and Luke before her, Rey is a selfish and flawed character. Her
self-interested goals and her own complex psychological profile lead her
to genuine moral choices and mistaken judgments. Flawed execution
aside, that is a very good thing indeed. To me it’s more progress than
any amount of guns and politics.

Rey ultimately failed in her mission, as Luke warned, though she at least managed to return to the Resistance with her conscience and freedom intact and to save it. Now she is faced with the reality that she has to be the Jedi and hero. Luke is gone, Kylo is the Big Bad, and she can’t look to anyone to solve her problems for her.

What’s more, Finn himself, who had asked her to leave with him in the first place, now has a new commitment to the Resistance/Rebellion and possibly a personal and emotional commitment to someone new. As John Boyega who plays Finn has said, the look she gives Finn and Rose says it all.

These developments point to interesting directions to take the character. I hope Episode IX carries Rey’s
development forward with better writing and challenges her harder,
developing her more and having the story hinge on her moral–or
immoral–choices.

swarzseawalker:

starwarshub:

Screw writing “strong” women.  Write interesting women.  Write well-rounded women.  Write complicated women.  Write a woman who kicks ass, write a woman who cowers in a corner.  Write a woman who’s desperate for a husband.  Write a woman who doesn’t need a man.  Write women who cry, women who rant, women who are shy, women who don’t take no shit, women who need validation and women who don’t care what anybody thinks.  THEY ARE ALL OKAY, and all those things could exist in THE SAME WOMAN.  Women shouldn’t be valued because we are strong, or kick-ass, but because we are people.  So don’t focus on writing characters who are strong.  Write characters who are people. (x)

THIS THIS THIS THIS YES!!! 

It’s one thing that so many people like The Last Jedi, but it’s another thing that so many people have no problems with it. There are people who either don’t know or don’t care about bad writing, character assassination, racism, sexism, sub-par action sequences, terrible humor, or any of the other many problems of The Last Jedi; it’s baffling. And what’s even more baffling is that this comes from casual moviegoers, hardcore Star Wars fans, and even social justice warriors alike.

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

@loopy777 Well, obviously. Finn going from “This fleet is doomed” to outright kamikaze for the remnants of that fleet because the person who tased him and mocked him gave him a lecture about the evils of the universe and has a sad past is the height of writing. His character regressing from valuing his own individuality and feelings, something that was systematically denied to him as a child soldier, to seeing himself as expendable for yet another cause is great character development. And his “having” to be hurt yet again to be saved from himself and being lectured to about how hateful he is for wanting to sacrifice himself for other people is a great thematic moment.

And that’s just one character.

If I squint hard the egregious and incoherent “that’s how we win” moment was about Rose realizing she was wrong and telling Finn he shouldn’t throw his life away for a cause like her sister did, that yes, he should live, he should have a chance to see Rey again. But there was a relentlessly glorified suicide run like 5 minutes earlier, and that was evidently about serving the light and not being a hero? And Paige wasn’t trying to destroy what she hated, she was thinking about Rose in her last moments? Finn wasn’t acting out of hate either, he was trying to buy time for the remainder of the Resistance. Why is it love when Holdo does it and hate when Finn does it?

I think I would have liked the scene better without that stupid line, because then at least it could have been about Rose’s trauma and not about her being a thematic vessel or whatever the hell that scene was trying to achieve.

@loopy777​ DJ as catalyst for Finn development is even worse, though? At least
Rose became a friend of sorts. Finn went from fleeing to kamikaze
because a random dude he met in a jail cell spouted nonsense moral
equivalency and then–shock!–betrayed them. That looks awfully flimsy to me.

Did
you seriously put Finn’s “individuality” in quotes? I guess I
hallucinated the parts in TFA where he escaped the regime that kidnapped
and enslaved him out of his own “individual” conscience, where he made
friends and built relationships as an “individual,” and wanted to flee
to the Outer Rim out of his terror and trauma as an “individual.” Or the
part in TLJ where he wanted him and Rey, two “individuals,” to be
spared the destruction. There’s even a part in the TLJ novelization
where he all but begs Rose to understand that he was never allowed to
think and act for himself as an “individual” in the First Order (and
Rose dismisses him because yay friendship)!

I’m sorry, buying
time in a desperate situation has always been a valid military plan and,
for that matter, Holdo’s and Paige’s sacrifices also consisted of
buying time with their lives. There WAS a plan on Finn’s part for the
Outer Rim to rally and come to the Resistance’s aid. Finn had so much faith in the
people of the galaxy rising up against the First Order that he was
willing to literally stake his life on it, and then to have his
attempted sacrifice cheapened by being called an act of hate and not
love left a serious bad taste in my mouth.

Also, even if we say he
was acting without a plan, that is at best thoughtless or reckless, not
hateful. Rose’s speech, though framed and received as a thematic
moment, was unearned and made no sense even by your metric.

lj-writes:

Different people are sensitive to different things, and have different reactions as a result. I’ve noticed that even a number of people who are very critical of TLJ don’t see the treatment of Finn as a problem, for instance, and a lot of white women see TLJ as an unqualified victory for female representation. I think a lot of people also react positively to what TLJ was trying to do, especially the last half hour or so, without necessarily dwelling on the failures of execution or how unearned some of its most heartfelt moments were.

Yes, Finn was an individual, but ‘individuality’ was a never a theme or a subplot anywhere; it’s not important to the story, and 7 certainly doesn’t posit it as the reason he left the FO. 8 was clear that no more help was coming to Crait, & everyone knew it by then. And I don’t think “thoughtless and reckless” inspires suicide without some deeper emotion driving it- you’re taking away Finn’s agency, and kind of infantilizing him.

@loopy777 “My first battle, I made a choice. I wasn’t going to kill for them.

I mean… I can’t believe I actually have to explain what an astounding assertion of individuality that was for someone who was brainwashed to be a cog in the FO machine. He listened to his own trauma, his own morality, in defiance of everything he had been taught his entire life, and I thought that made his individuality pretty important to his story and TFA as a whole. I’m curious, what do you think Finn’s arc in TFA was really about?

Oh hey, I didn’t realize “believing in the people of the galaxy” and “fuck it, I’m gonna save my friends anyway even if no one’s coming” weren’t valid motivations, or that attempting to kill yourself to destroy a weapon that would have been used to kill your friends has to come from a place of hate now. By that metric weren’t Holdo and Paige a lot more hateful, since they killed a metric ton of people in their own suicide runs? Or is it okay as long as they had a good plan–do carefully planned suicide attacks never come from a place of hate? As far as I can tell good planning and hatred are like… two totally unrelated indices. One doesn’t say anything about the other.

And why is it infantilizing to read a motivation in Finn that is not hatred? Believing that people will rise up is infantilizing now? Wanting to save your friends is infantilizing? I mean your handwavy “some deeper emotion” seems to be your own assumption and not anything supported by the story, other than the presupposition that Rose was correct. Why does that deeper emotion necessarily have to be hatred–couldn’t it be love, or maybe depression from everything he had suffered?

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@loopy777 But Finn’s story being about asserting individuality explains both of those developments? He tried to flee because he listened to his own trauma and fear about the FO rather than be drawn into another cause to fight for. He came back for Rey not because he was obligated by a higher cause because she was someone he wanted to be safe. It’s clear that he hadn’t given himself to the Resistance at this point, but rather had his own goal he wanted to achieve by helping their mission.

It’s also possible that TLJ badly mangled his arc and his newly discovered individuality is ridiculed and called a bad thing, and then his dedication is also called bad so all he can do now is follow the person who was violent against him and insulted him. Maybe Rose Tico is just a horribly written character. You know, just a possibility.

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Again, you can’t deny that earning time for one’s allies is a valid tactic that has been used throughout history, in general to show how noble the person is (e.g. Holdo). Even if no one came, Finn’s allies could still find a way out while their cover was intact. Since no one including Rose was expecting Luke to come, as far as anyone knew at that point Finn’s sacrifice actually was necessary for the Resistance remnants’ survival.

It’s interesting that it’s suddenly a “spiteful act of defiance” and “hate” because Finn does it while it’s “heroic” when Holdo does it. It’s also interesting that, while they both miscalculated, Holdo is judged by circumstances she could have known at the time while Finn is judged by circumstances he could not have. Omniscience is expected for Finn, but not for Holdo. And what’s more, not being omniscient makes Finn spiteful and hateful instead of, like, just not all-knowing.

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You seem to have forgotten or misunderstood the role “thoughtles or reckless” played in my argument. That was not my first position, which was that he was making a noble sacrifice and there was no evidence he was acting out of hate, but rather a fallback position that even if we accept for the sake of argument (you know what that is, right?) that Finn’s suicide run was poorly planned, a position I don’t actually agree with, that at best makes him a bad planner and not automatically hateful. I was pointing out that even if you’re right about the sacrifice being needless, it doesn’t support your (or Rose’s) conclusion that he was being hateful.

But Finn wasn’t trying to destroy. He was trying to defend, much as Poe was. That’s another reason Rose’s line was dumb, by the way, because there is no clear line between destroying and defending when you’re being attacked by an enemy that’s trying to annihilate you. There’s a famous case of someone trying to apply pacifism toward fascists in our own world, but Neville Chamberlain doesn’t get the best rap unfortunately.

themandalorianwolf:

This scene is so underrated and amazing for so many reasons.

Just look at Rey’s Face. It is the picture of amazement and curiosity. She has no idea about the ships of the First Order. Most of the ships she’s ever even seen are they junks on Jakku. This scene perfectly depicts someone who is just finding out the world is bigger than them.

Now compare that to Finn. It looks like he is having a PTSD attack. On his face is the look of horror, fear and anxiety of what will happen if their caught. The scene perfectly shows how much trauma Finn had gone through and how much he’s hiding from Rey.

Seriously, hands off to John and Daisy!

Also, in this part Finn just LISTENED to the ENGINE SOUND and knew an airstrike was coming. What phenomenal senses and attention to detail. The Resistance’s chances would have been much diminished if Finn had become a FO officer as he was on track to be.

Racist asshats like to portray his reaching for and dragging Rey out of the tent as some kind of assault, which uh, first the tent literally blew up and she would have been blown up with it if not for Finn’s snap judgment, and second, this is a trained soldier’s reflex and not some seduction move. He heard danger coming and pulled his teammate out because she didn’t sense it like he did. The same thing he did for Zeroes, Nines, and especially Slip, he did for Rey here. He’s such an amazing leader and I love him.

themandalorianwolf:

So this bull shit

Poe’s relationship to the Skywalkers:

Gets the map to Luke Skywalker

Tortured by a former Skywalker relative

He’s been working with a Skywalker for years and she’s his mentor!

Finn’s relationship with the Skywalker’s

Worked in the same organization as a Skywalker relative

Worked alongside 2 Skywalker relatives (Han and Leia)

Kylo, a Skywalker relative, is his arch enemy and foil.

Bonus

Finn’s best friend/love interest is the daughter student of Luke Skywalker.

Poe has been working with Leia for years, she’s his mentor.

Finn literally has a relationship with almost all of the Skywalkers, fought with their lightsaber, and started the entire plot of TFA.

This is bull shit that after 4 years Finn and Poe, but especially Finn, have to fight for their relevance in this damn franchise.

Fuck You, Russell Walker.

Finn was also the only character who argued that the Resistance had to go out and help Luke Skywalker against the entire fucking First Order military. You know, despite never having met the guy? It wasn’t the best idea but as Will Smith memorably said, he’s got the spirit.

Leia explicitly passed on her legacy to Poe, just as Luke passed his to Rey. And when Luke gives his “The Rebellion is reborn today” speech–setting aside whether it’s an earned moment–it’s Finn who comes up in the “war is just beginning” line.

Finn has Han’s legacy, part of it. One of the forgotten and downtrodden of the galaxy, the weary and traumatized renegade who very understandably wanted out of the fight and to get what little safety he could for himself, who ultimately came back to the fight because that was the right thing to do.

But Finn goes even beyond that. He was willing to stake his life in people around the galaxy rising up and coming to the Resistance’s aid. He was willing to give himself so there might be a tomorrow. He is the leader and symbol of the antifascist uprising that will come, that must come if there is to be any kind of future. He is the one who will tear apart the First Order’s lies. He is the man Supreme Leader Ren should fear the most, if he has any sense at all (a highly debatable point). Rose saved Finn at the risk of the entire remaining Resistance because she saw him as the hope for the future, mangled and marred as the message was.

And Supreme Butthead? He gets Jack Schitt. He gets Vader, at best, if he finally makes the right choice for once. If he does he may choose a sacrificial death that can never make up for the magnitude of his crimes, or he may get life in prison while his long-dormant conscience eats him alive. With the course he’s currently set himself on he will die defeated, unrepentent, ignoble and unmourned.

Without Finn, Rey, and Poe the Skywalker legacy is shit. It’s ashes and rot and failure. To erase two-thirds of what positivity remains in the Skywalker legacy for reasons that make no fucking sense is repugnant, reductionist, and yeah, racist. It goes against everything the sequel trilogy says it’s about.

themandalorianwolf:

Why TFA was the real subversion

The faceless black mook Stormtrooper who became one of the saviors of the galaxy, who is a kind hearted man, resourceful strategist and a potential Jedi.

The Scavenger girl from a backwater planet who turned out to be a a fierce warrior, the Legacy of the Skywalkers and a Jedi with a gentle heart.

The dashing Latino rogue, turned out to be a caring rebel pilot and soldier who is willing to look past a uniform and at the character of someone.

The son of 2 war heroes who turns out to be the villain of the movie and rejects the redemption of family love and accepts darkness within himself.

The big bad of the series is an actually not a sadist or even a Sith, but a cool, calm, and collected chess master. Not even losing his super weapon will force his composure to slip.

A badass female Asian fighter pilot who isn’t shoved into a forced romance or dies, but instead contributes to blowing up the super weapon.

A dangerous and calculating young general who stands on even ground with the dark forces in the film and outrught definitely asserts his authority.

The princess turned badass General who now leads an entire army against the big bad of the series.

The non believer who is willing to die for his family, yet still puts the mission of saving thousands first.

An interracial romance between two overlooked and damaged people. A Stormtrooper and a scavenger, who became the hope of the New Republic and the galaxy.

The Force Awakens was diverse, empowering, and full of more subversion than that white bread, tasteless Reddit fanfic that was TLJ