You know what getting me mad Finnrose Shippper who are shipper Reylo we all know why guys ship it . But guys crying “poor John ” because ppl talking FinnRey on his post . you need fucking stop you guys harass John when talks finnrey in a romantic way and harassed Daisy when post FinnRey Art and photos of her and John in costume
Normally I don’t respond to this sort of thing, but I really urge you to reconsider your stance.
1) The implication that people who ship both Reylo and Finnrose are doing it only for one reason is pretty gross and blatantly untrue. In addition to many of us who simply love it for the dynamic, you also have many shippers who are excited about having an Asian woman as a main character. Erasing the many reasons why people like this ship because it fits a “those nasty reylos” narrative is frankly intellectually lazy and kind of mean. Additionally, it’s possible for people to ship more than one thing. For example, a lot of us also ship finnrey (I literally run a finnrey side blog) in addition to finnrose/reylo so the logic here doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense.
2) It’s not just people “talking” finnrey. A lot of it was worded very rudely and there was a lot of derogatory (and often racist) discussion of Rose, Finnrose and KMT. It wasn’t just people bringing up Finnrey, it was the way it was brought up. Please don’t belittle the issue.
3) “you guys harass John when he talks finnrey in a romantic way and harassed Daisy when she posted Finnrey Art and photos of her and John in costume” I’m not going to doubt you here – there are shitty people in every fandom. If this sort of thing is brought to our attention, most people I know/follow will call this behavior out. We’re just asking you to do the same within your own fandom and the fact that many blogs who supposedly care a great deal about social justice and defending POC actors from racism have remained silent is what is bothering a lot of people, especially Asian fans.
I generally try to stay away from these sort of arguments. I believe
that no shipping community has clean hands here. However, you say that
you ship Finnrey and yet you make very puzzling statements that someone
who is in any way involved with Finnrey would not make. Such as:
I’m not going to doubt you here – there are shitty people in every
fandom. If this sort of thing is brought to our attention, most people I
know/follow will call this behavior out.
@diversehighfantasy has a reyloreceipts tag filled with proof of reylo racism and
gaslighting, including racial harrassment of fans who are POC as well as
John and Kelly Marie Tran.
The reylo fan @sovereignempress
has said repeatedly racist things about black fans and about Finn. She
has never been called out. There was a fan who said that she was
triggered by John Boyega because he was black. Reylos never called her
out. So please spare me with the “we call out bad behavior” because you
don’t. You just don’t.
Asian finnrey fans were called c—-s
for not shipping Finnrose even before Rose’s name was revealed or
anything about her character was revealed. We were assumed to be race
traitors for not shipping an unknown character with a character we loved
simply because we are Asian. That is racist.
Are you Asian?
Because I am. I am Black/Korean. So Finnrose was something I was
personally excited about because I barely ever see representations of my
parents or family in popular media. I was over the moon when I found
out that Kelly Marie Tran and John Boyega were BFFs. I was looking
forward to a wonderful dynamic between their characters and was fine
with the idea of shipping Finn, Rey, and Rose together. I was even in
the middle of commissioning a new banner of the three of them to replace
the one on my blog currently.
Then I saw the movie. I’m not sure
why you mention your mom liked Rose. Is she Asian? Because my mom is and
Rose made her cringe. My mother is not a sci-fi person in general, but
she also was excited when I told her that an Asian woman was going to
have a prominent role in Star Wars and her storyline would be wrapped in
with that of Finn. She kept asking “Why do they make us so mean? Why are we always
mean?” Meaning Asian women. She resented the tiger mom, dragon lady
stereotype that was Rose was reduced to. And being a 53 year old Korean
woman who has dealt with stereotypes on a daily basis, it is for her –
not you, or any other non-Asian – to say what works and what doesn’t.
Rose didn’t work for me. As someone who is very proud of her Korean
heritage, it didn’t work for me either, and as a black woman, seeing the
antiblackness that was leveled at Finn by Rose definitely didn’t work
for me.
We’re not going to agree. In many ways, that’s okay. I
have blocked Finnrey shippers as well as reylo shippers who are
incapable of letting people just ship things in peace. But I’m getting
tired of people, particularly non-Asians, telling me and other
Asians/multiracial people of Asian descent what we are and are not
allowed to find problematic. I found Rose’s characterization to
problematic. Finnrose is nonexistent for me. I don’t need a non-Asian
telling me I’m being “racist” for thinking so, and I certainly don’t
need a person who is neither Asian nor black trying to lecture me about
what other black fans are saying about the blatant antiblackness that
was present in Finn’s storyline with Rose.
One of the funniest things I’ve seen on Tumblr was this fight between rey/los and kyloxreader fans, and after going back and forth about whether kyloxreader is less problematic than rey/lo (it is, ftr), a rey/lo goes “JUST ADMIT YOU WANT TO SELF-INSERT AND GO.”
JOHN U LEGEND FJHSDHSHDJSHDJHSD (the gif he retweeted is from this iconic gifset)
Reylos in there dislocating something by reaching too hard:
My conclusion is that Rey thinks Rathtars are hot.
I ship Rey/Rathtars over Reylo.
Edit: this was the 666th note to this post and i am proud 🙂
I mean they didn’t send Finn into a coma and didn’t torture Rey… like we could depict all of this as a misunderstanding… they were abducted and imprisoned and were scared, thus they attacked who they believed to be responsible. And then imagine what they can do with these tentacles…
Daisy is the og Anti-Reylo and there’s nothing you can do about it (quote sources)
Because the Tumblr chat post type is broken, I’m posting this screenshot of @chxncing ’s original post including the tags to show what @leg-grestrade and I were responding to. Stay the fuck out of the Finnrey tag with your anti Finnrey bullshit.
1. Where is the research on how media you consume can directly, negatively affect your values? Everything I’ve seen says that, on the whole, it makes you more empathetic and thoughtful, things which would be directly counter to the normalization of horrifying acts.
2. What is your basis for saying that what someone enjoys in fiction or fantasy is what they enjoy in real life, or would enjoy if they had a chance? You make fun of the argument “enjoying horror doesn’t make you a murderer”, but I’ve never seen a meaningful counter to that.
3. What is it about sex that makes something inherently bad? I’ve seen a lot of arguments along the lines of, “Portraying X is fine so long as it’s not sexual”, but isn’t being sexual a part of many people’s lives, good and bad? How are you coming to the conclusion that people universally endorse the reality of the ideas that they find sexually arousing?
4. Why do the needs of victims who are triggered by content overrule the needs of victim who find comfort in communities surrounding that content? Isn’t the solution to just keep the communities as separate as possible?
5. What is your goal? Do you really think removing all the content you find objectionable from a fandom is possible? Do you really want to leave a string of suicides in your wake of victims who blame their trauma on the fiction they chose to create and consume?
There questions are asked in good faith, and I’d love it if you answered in good faith. With reliable sources, if at all possible.
We have to talk. We have to. We have to come back to the middle, at least a little bit, or fandom and creative communities all over the internet are going to tear themselves apart. So: it’s possible that I’m wrong. I don’t think I am, but I try as hard and as often as possible to prove myself wrong, to combat confirmation bias. So: prove me wrong. How did you get to where you are, and what’s your evidence?
Fandom is a reflection of the real world, it isn’t what happens when “morally questionable” media is embraced.
When a movie or show has an inclusive cast of characters and fandom makes everything about white characters (and, for the record, this happens again and again across multiple fandoms, including Blade, Bright, and Orange is the New Black to name just a few), that says something about the real world. We know that something is harmful. The empathy gap – which can be summed up as feeling white pain but not Black pain – is real (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3108582/), and serious, and it’s on display every day in fandoms.
The Last Jedi didn’t make anyone more empathetic to Kylo than Finn. In fact, the narrative did not ask that of the audience at all.
Researchers studied how viewers were affected by nonverbal behavior on 11 popular television shows, such as CSI: Miami. Characters on these shows displayed more negative nonverbal behavior toward African-American characters than toward white characters. Exposure to pro-white nonverbal behavior increased racial bias among viewers, as determined by a test that measures unconscious biases, even though viewers did not report noticing patterns of biased behavior on TV. This study suggests that subtle nonverbal behavior on TV can influence racial bias in the real world. —Kat Saxton
This is an interesting study, but the fact is, viewers will demonstrate bias against Black characters even without negative nonverbal behavior toward them. All they have to do is exist. (Citation: Many years of watching and participating in fandoms first hand.)
I think 1-2 have been answered by @diversehighfantasy or rather redirected to more relevant questions. To add on, my response to Question 3 is that I don’t have a problem with sexualizing a situation/relationship itself, but I do have a problem with being told that harnful behaviors are actuallly unobjectionable and is/should be canon. For instance, that a minor-adult sexual relationship is unharmful or beneficial, that torture and mass murder are justifiable acts of war, or that it’s not abusive to tell a woman she is nothing except to a specific man.
On Questions 4 and 5, my goal is not to remove shipping or shipping content, and I do not know any anti who thinks that’s a feasible goal. For the most part antis I know go to great lengths to avoid content we find objectionable, including filtering and blocking, and excluding some shippers from our own self-organized fandom activities like blog rings and Discord chats.
I think one main source of misunderstanding is that you as the op don’t see the difference between “This fandom trend is a reflection of real life biases and decreases the enjoyment of marginalized fans” and “This fandom trend must be forbidden altogether.” It is possible to criticize a thing without infringing on the right of others to enjoy it. Critique is not the same thing as prohibition, and the right to create and enjoy content doesn’t mean the right to be free of criticism.
It’s interesting that the term “anti” is so universally connected with being anti Re/lo in this fandom, as if there’s something inherently wrong or “other” about being against this crack ship. What about the far more numerous anti Finn’s and anti FinnReys? You know the ones who drove Daisy off of social media with racism? The ones who actively replace Finn from his own scenes in edits and in his dynamic with Rey? The ones who try to shut down or down vote discussions related to Finn and/or FinnRey, insisting Finn’s not a lead and is just a goofy sidekick who has been friendzoned? Or the ones who try to vilify Finn for trying to protect Rey, invoking racist beliefs about violent black men? Is there a post from the OP asking about that group of “antis” and their need to shut down the canon pairing of the sequel trilogy? Or is that just seen as normal?
This was exactly what I was about to say. I always wonder why when people like OP say “anti” they don’t mean the people trolling the Finnrey tag with posts that attack the ship or have nothing to do with the pairing at all. Or who write 1000+ words long metas about how Finn is a “beta” and unsuitable for Rey.
I’ll start taking people like OP serious as someone who wants fandom to be a good place for everyone, once they star talking about them too. Until then I know them for what they are and have no interest in a “civil” conversation, that’s 99,99999% meant to be an excuse for protecting racist and racism even if I know they’re going to claim that it is nothing of the sort. Racism and the protection of it is as common in fandom as it is out of it and people like OP help in that with this kind of rhetoric.
So they may claim that shipping isn’t morality, but as long as it involves protecting racist and attack fans of color as being “toxic” (yes I saw those “receipts” in the other reply and that is exactly what they’re doing) simply for voicing discomfort or disgust with racism in a tone that doesn’t please them, then they promote the current social morality which is intensely racist.
And Finnrey shippers, many of whom are Black women, are regularly harassed and called racists for not shipping Finnrose. I have to wonder if this behavior is concerning to people like the op who are critical of antis.
1. Where is the research on how media you consume can directly, negatively affect your values? Everything I’ve seen says that, on the whole, it makes you more empathetic and thoughtful, things which would be directly counter to the normalization of horrifying acts.
2. What is your basis for saying that what someone enjoys in fiction or fantasy is what they enjoy in real life, or would enjoy if they had a chance? You make fun of the argument “enjoying horror doesn’t make you a murderer”, but I’ve never seen a meaningful counter to that.
3. What is it about sex that makes something inherently bad? I’ve seen a lot of arguments along the lines of, “Portraying X is fine so long as it’s not sexual”, but isn’t being sexual a part of many people’s lives, good and bad? How are you coming to the conclusion that people universally endorse the reality of the ideas that they find sexually arousing?
4. Why do the needs of victims who are triggered by content overrule the needs of victim who find comfort in communities surrounding that content? Isn’t the solution to just keep the communities as separate as possible?
5. What is your goal? Do you really think removing all the content you find objectionable from a fandom is possible? Do you really want to leave a string of suicides in your wake of victims who blame their trauma on the fiction they chose to create and consume?
There questions are asked in good faith, and I’d love it if you answered in good faith. With reliable sources, if at all possible.
We have to talk. We have to. We have to come back to the middle, at least a little bit, or fandom and creative communities all over the internet are going to tear themselves apart. So: it’s possible that I’m wrong. I don’t think I am, but I try as hard and as often as possible to prove myself wrong, to combat confirmation bias. So: prove me wrong. How did you get to where you are, and what’s your evidence?
Fandom is a reflection of the real world, it isn’t what happens when “morally questionable” media is embraced.
When a movie or show has an inclusive cast of characters and fandom makes everything about white characters (and, for the record, this happens again and again across multiple fandoms, including Blade, Bright, and Orange is the New Black to name just a few), that says something about the real world. We know that something is harmful. The empathy gap – which can be summed up as feeling white pain but not Black pain – is real (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3108582/), and serious, and it’s on display every day in fandoms.
The Last Jedi didn’t make anyone more empathetic to Kylo than Finn. In fact, the narrative did not ask that of the audience at all.
Researchers studied how viewers were affected by nonverbal behavior on 11 popular television shows, such as CSI: Miami. Characters on these shows displayed more negative nonverbal behavior toward African-American characters than toward white characters. Exposure to pro-white nonverbal behavior increased racial bias among viewers, as determined by a test that measures unconscious biases, even though viewers did not report noticing patterns of biased behavior on TV. This study suggests that subtle nonverbal behavior on TV can influence racial bias in the real world. —Kat Saxton
This is an interesting study, but the fact is, viewers will demonstrate bias against Black characters even without negative nonverbal behavior toward them. All they have to do is exist. (Citation: Many years of watching and participating in fandoms first hand.)
I think 1-2 have been answered by @diversehighfantasy or rather redirected to more relevant questions. To add on, my response to Question 3 is that I don’t have a problem with sexualizing a situation/relationship itself, but I do have a problem with being told that harnful behaviors are actuallly unobjectionable and is/should be canon. For instance, that a minor-adult sexual relationship is unharmful or beneficial, that torture and mass murder are justifiable acts of war, or that it’s not abusive to tell a woman she is nothing except to a specific man.
On Questions 4 and 5, my goal is not to remove shipping or shipping content, and I do not know any anti who thinks that’s a feasible goal. For the most part antis I know go to great lengths to avoid content we find objectionable, including filtering and blocking, and excluding some shippers from our own self-organized fandom activities like blog rings and Discord chats.
I think one main source of misunderstanding is that you as the op don’t see the difference between “This fandom trend is a reflection of real life biases and decreases the enjoyment of marginalized fans” and “This fandom trend must be forbidden altogether.” It is possible to criticize a thing without infringing on the right of others to enjoy it. Critique is not the same thing as prohibition, and the right to create and enjoy content doesn’t mean the right to be free of criticism.
L.J.'s Obsessions 