so i just saw the anon you got about finn being sidelined, and i don’t think that was the issue in tlj. he got comparable screentime to all of the other leads and had supporting characters like all of the other leads. the issue was that the writing for him was garbage. john’s acknowledged that in his twitter and instagram likes and he’s been really enthusiastic about 9 so i think it’s a given that the finn stuff will be better. if it’ll please us is another issue, but at least john likes it.

diversehighfantasy:

lj-writes:

Finn objectively had less screen time, though. I’ve seen one count where Finn has like half of Rey’s screen time. The reduction came entirely in TLJ, since they had about equal screen time in TFA. People have commented on there being so much less Finn, to the extent RJ explained his decisions to cut many of Finn’s scenes (link) and to condense his pivotal duel with Phasma (link).

To me the explanations don’t hold water, though. If too many of Finn’s scenes were transitional, then why not write more pivotal scenes for him? Why were Finn’s scenes always first on the cutting block as opposed to, oh here’s a revolutionary idea, cutting and condensing other scenes in favor of giving the male lead more time? Oh right, because he didn’t waaaant to. Because the fucking hack can’t be arsed to do his job and KK in her infinite wisdom let him slack off. She’s had no issue whatsoever with firing directors who weren’t up to par, but this shit somehow passed muster.

If we ever get an extended TLJ (which I imagine we will someday), with Finn’s cut scenes restored, I think it will be a better movie overall, Finn’s lead status will be more clear, and his screen time will be about the same as Rey’s.

RJ is a hack in every sense of the word. He decided to cut so much Finn, including pivotal and emotionally relevant scenes, and yet left in green tiddy milk and a gratuitous shirtless Kylo scene. He was disproportionately excited about the white characters is a trilogy with a Black co-lead. He never should have been given the reins.

I don’t know for sure, but I believe the storygroup (not RJ) was behind having a lead arc for Finn paralleling Rey’s, it was done, and RJ just dialed Finn back in post. Of course cuts had to be made, but when you look at Finn’s deleted scenes it seems like there was contempt for Finn’s status in the ST.

So glad he can’t get his hands on epIX.

That’s what gets me about TLJ, the contempt and mean-spiritedness particularly toward Finn. There have been bad SW movies before, who cares, you don’t watch most SW for the cinematic mastery anyway. But even the worst movies, The Phantom Menace, Solo, were earnest in their love of the world and its morality, sometimes painfully so. There has never been a SW movie that felt actually malicious toward the whole idea of SW and focused its ridicule on one character in particular. It’s a surreal and unpleasant experience made worse by the insistence that it’s a progressive masterpiece and the concerted efforts to silence criticism–something else I have not seen before with SW movies.

How “The Last Jedi Defies Expectations” video is bad, it was basically “Poe and Finn needed women to put them in their place” acting as if Finn and Poe are played by white men

thelastjedicritical:

lj-writes:

I have repeatedly stated that the “perfect and all-knowing woman exists to teach wayward man” is actually a very regressive and sexist trope, and it intersects with racism when the men in question are MOCs.

This is the point. This trope falls apart in several ways. 1.) the storylines of female characters shouldn’t be about fixing men 2.) female characters shouldn’t shine because the men around them are stupid but because the female character is brilliant 3.) white women lecturing stupid MOC is racist shit.

This nonsense is the worst white feminist, fake feminist crap. It’s based on the first tries to somehow make women shine but still bases their entire storylines on men and forgets that women can be brilliant on their own without having to dumb the men around them down. It’s this idea that a women among smart men can’t shine and that if a brilliant woman meets a stupid man it’s her job to help him. Why??

And if you then take into consideration that two MOC were turned into racist stereotypes to achieve this storytelling, there is truly nothing to salvage.

I think the reason Palpatine just wanting power doesn’t bug me is that I never saw any reason why he shouldn’t. But Kylo being the way he is either feels inorganic to his background, or is an indictment of Leia’s and Han’s parenting skills that just feels like one more ST fuck-you to the original cast. No character trait comes from nowhere, and a reason that even people who want Kylo to stay a villain might be unsatisfied is that we want to see how Leia and Han failed.

I mean there is definitely the fuck-you angle so I can understand why a lot of OT fans don’t like the ST. On the other hand, I can see how Kylo got there and I don’t think it needs additional explication. Here’s a guy who was told implicitly his entire life that a) he is born to save the universe and b) he is special. It doesn’t matter if that’s not what Leia or Han thought or what they consciously instilled into him, these two tenets were baked into the narrative of his life. Put a) and b) together, sprinkle in a few wrong choices and add someone (Snoke) who told him what he wanted to hear encouraging his mushrooming narcissism. Stir, shake, and you get the belief that he is entitled to shape the universe however he sees fit.

This is exactly why I believe that not only should the Skywalkers die out, or at least the idea of them as a special anointed dynasty (which was always more fanon than canon anyway), Luke was halfway onto the right idea and the Jedi as we know it do need to end. Rather, Force instruction should change radically to bring out the Force inherent in everyone, not select for genetic superhumans which is a system that just begs for another Palpatine, Vader, or Kylo Ren. That’s what my Force-Sensitive Five post at heart was about (link), and that’s the direction I hope the franchise is going. It would go a long way toward making SW more palatable and any victory in Episode IX a lasting thing.

Comparing Finnrey to romantic Lukeleia… YIKES.

L.J.: Funny how EVERY INTERRACIAL COUPLE EVER gets comments along the lines of “brotp!” and “siblings!” and so on, isn’t it? As @diversehighfantasy pointed out, it’s just another way of saying their having sex would be an abomination. This, disregarding the fact that Finn and Rey’s dynamic was nothing like Luke and Leia’s beyond being friends. Did Luke pour out his deepest secrets to Leia in a blatantly romantic scene? Did Luke cry out Leia’s name in a soul-rending scream? Did Leia overcome a lifetime of trauma to stand over Luke, defending him with her life? Did Leia lie down with Luke to die with him, crying on his chest like her heart was breaking in two?

I hate listened to a reylow podcast that youtube recommended me and I just listened to a couple of reylows going on about how Finn isn’t Rey’s equal. They insist that because Finn is standing of the lower step during his confession scene and looking up at Rey that is JJ showing us that Finn isn’t her equal. And they insist that Kylo is bowing to Rey in knightly worship in the “interrogation” scene. Other gems include that Finn needs her to “babysit” him. But you know they /swear/ they love Finn

It’s funny they should mention that scene, because I’d been thinking for a while how strongly Finn and Rey’s parting scene on Takodana reminded me of the parting between Rodrigo and Jimena from El Cid (1961).

I mean here’s the woman, climbing up on a higher step and turning to face the man for a Very Important Conversation just before he leaves ~~we know you watched the scene over and over and were just itching to try it Rey you extra bitch~~

The woman tells the man how unhappy she is with his decision to go.

The man, in words or gesture, confesses his feelings for the woman. This part comes near the end of the conversation in El Cid but at the middle in the TFA scene, since Finn unlike Rodrigo must tell the truth of himself first.

The man makes a heartfelt request to the woman, and that’s exactly what it is–a request, respecfully presented without any pressure ~~as opposed to “I can take whatever I want” or “I’ll destroy her”~~. As seen below, the woman refuses his request freely and without repercussions.

In each case the woman refuses, asserting her own needs and feelings, while also reiterating her unhappiness with the man’s leaving. This is greeted without any rancor or even a repeat request on the man’s part.

The man says good-bye with complicated feelings. He knows he’s leaving the woman unhappy and she doesn’t want him to go, but he does what he has to do. And she lets him, without threats or coercion, because when you love and respect someone you also respect their decisions.

That doesn’t mean she’s not sad as hell, of course. She climbs down from the steps she was standing on, the better to watch him go.

And she watches and watches, so sadly…

While the man in turn can barely bring himself to go, and looks back at her before he leaves for good.

Finn standing on a lower step than Rey is in fact a very recognizable romantic/knightly trope with the knight gazing up at his lady in adoration. It’s pretty much a mirrored version of the El Cid scene, as seen above. THAT is what knightly worship looks like.

Also, Kylo “bowing” to Rey? Nah, we’ve seen this before, a man invading a woman’s personal space after tying her up, only for her to ridicule and rebuff him (putting under a cut for potentially triggering content and also Hunchback of Notre Dame gifs):

Here’s the man, leaning into the personal space of a woman he has abducted and physically restrained. See how the woman leans away, the fear and revulsion clear in her face:

And then she humiliates him, revealing him as the pathetic bully he is with such force/Force that he is physically repelled. I was always very impressed at Esmeralda’s projectile spitting ability.

As usual Reylows get it all wrong and don’t know their cinematic history lmao.

Hey, its a different anon :) Do you know where we see the breakdowns for the length of screen time per character? Watching TLJ it felt like Rey had less screen time than before and her story seemed liked a subplot that connected to the main story of the Resistance trying to escape the FO. Yet I keep seeing her story being referred to as the main plot with the most screen time.

I was curious myself, and here’s one breakdown by IMBD user ninewheels0 (link):

According to this count Rey has the most screentime in both movies, so calling hers (Kylo and Luke’s, really) the main plot is not wrong. However her screentime is, in fact, reduced in TLJ compared to TFA so your gut feeling is right as well. Kylo had slightly less screen time in TLJ than TFA, too, which is why his screentime count did not jump in comparison to other characters. You can see that he’s made a significant gain on Finn, though. He had 2/3 of Finn’s screentime in TFA, but the two are almost even in TLJ. And that’s just mechanically counting the minutes–I think we can agree that there was significantly more focus on Kylo’s character and background during the time he appeared on screen than there was on Finn during his appearances.

The forum post where I found the above count also did a comparison of how each character’s screentime in TLJ compared to their time in TFA (link). The result is pretty telling: Finn had the biggest negative shift in TFA-TLJ screen time other than Han, who died.

Finn getting the most time cut is in absolute minutes, not the proportion of screen time. Finn didn’t have the greatest proportion of his screentime cut among the living characters, but the only living characters who had a greater proportion of their screentime cut were secondary and tertiary characters such as BB-8, Chewbacca, and Maz.

RJ might not have carried through with his joke of keeping Finn in a coma for the entire movie, but he seems to have gone as close to it as he could get away with.

i see what you mean, and i think it’s not something that bothers me because how much of it was rey’s screentime for her OWN character in comparison? her time doubled because her storyline mingled with that of another lead (kylo), and i think the time each character had on their own would be either comparable or less than finn’s. i think finn’s screentime will balloon again because we know he has stuff with rey (from daisy) and we’ve seen that he has stuff with poe.

thelastjedicritical:

lj-writes:

i ran out of space in the last anon but yeah, my point basically
is that finn had a lot of screentime in [tfa] because he was with another
lead (rey), rian alienated him in tlj so he had less screentime but the
screentime was all about his character for better or for worse, and in 9
we’ll see him go back to tfa amounts if not more.

That’s something else that bothers me about TLJ, though, because Finn is at least as much Kylo Ren’s foil as Rey is and should have been more involved in the plot with KR. There was nothing inevitable about Finn getting less time with other leads and less screen time in addition to the crappy and pointless retread of his arc from the prior movie.

RJ himself said he cut a lot of Finn’s scenes because they were more plotty and therefore disposable, and again, there was nothing about Finn’s character or the story that dictated that Finn get the plotty and less-important scenes that subsequently ended up on the cutting room floor.

This anon is quite simply writing nonsense. Rey’s screentime did not double. Rey’s screentime got LESS, significantly, compared to TFA, and Finn’s screentime was cut in half compared to his screentime in TFA. Rey lost approx. 13 minutes, Finn lost almost 20 minutes. Just in case: Rey, IN TFA, was with the OTHER LEAD, WHO WAS FINN!. Kylo Ren’s screentime didn’t even get significantly bigger compared to TFA but this time it was used to let him ramble his BS, when during most of TFA he was a horror in a mask. Rey’s or Finn’s screentime should not depend on who they are with, they are lead characters whose screentime should be planned in advance and it should be essential that their screentime is important and that the story revolves around them! Then doing what RJ did to Finn would be IMPOSSIBLE! I mean I could also argue Rey’s screentime just exists so that we can hear Kylo whine and Luke being an ass bc nothing much else fucking happens. Finn’s screentime wasn’t connected to RJ’s only real idea for TLJ, so it could just be cut. Also please tell me how space horses and naked butt aliens and boring shit people went to the LOO for bc they couldn’t take it anymore was all about Finn. He learned NOTHING he didn’t already know in TFA! This nonsense was straight up filler material! and RJ CUT scenes that could’ve deepened his character development and story bc he somehow believed they didn’t matter!!!!!!

So again: Finn’s screentime does not depend on who he is with. His screentime should stand on its OWN bc he is IMPORTANT. Fucking hell, I can’t handle this BULLSHIT

no matter how bad you feel about yourself you are not the last jedi

you’re at least attack of the clones

and you’re probably return of the jedi to be honest

or revenge of the sith depending on your ranking

and i guarantee there’s at least one person who thinks you’re the empire strikes back

now go out there and be a relatively flawed but ultimately amazing human being

and don’t listen to the director in your head telling you to betray yourself and those who love you

fire that director

hire gareth edwards instead

because gareth edwards understands you and will make you an objectively good movie

indisputably original and on par with the greats even if it’s not everyone’s cup of tea

which i know people say about the last jedi but i defy you to name one person who hates rogue one

like actually hates it

the way people hate the last jedi

you can’t

you can’t name a single person

so i guess i’m saying just aspire to be rogue one

because even if you can’t

i know from experience choking on your aspirations is hard

but the worst star wars prequel isn’t as bad as the last jedi

and if you can just be attack of the clones, that’s good enough

you can work your way up

and you’ll find someone who thinks you’re the best star wars movie ever

anyway that’s my inspirational message everyone

signed, the phantom menace

Luke’s new Jedi Temple in Cloud City. It’s a lot more humble than the Academy from the Prequels, as it focuses on spiritual enlightenment rather than militaristic deployment. Though grass doesn’t usually grow this much on Bespin, a Force experiment created rather lively soil. Lando bought the building next door, so the two can meet for lunch. (Moth)

Apparently Finn is being removed from new TFA merch. I think that’s why some Finn fans have been touchy about Poe because in many cases he is being inserted where Finn would have been before, or Chewie is. Rey and bb-8 are constants. Little to nor Finn in TLJ merch I can understand but it feels like they’re reissuing TFA stuff specifically to put Finn out and Poe in. It’s not a good feeling, esp considering the screen time in TFA of the respective characters.

diversehighfantasy:

reys–speeder:

diversehighfantasy:

themandalorianwolf:

diversehighfantasy:

pikrollo:

jewishcomeradebot:

diversehighfantasy:

pikrollo:

lj-writes:

God, they’d better not be Sleepy Hollow-ing Finn. I mean I’m pretty positive they’re not killing him, but he could still be seriously sidelined.

This isn’t really new they have always had very little Finn merchandise. It’s the same old bull shit Disney has been pulling with there black characters for a very long time. It’s the same reason there’s very little princess Tiana merchandise, Falcon, Iron patriot, Ect.

Disney doesn’t care about there black characters except for the ones from black panther and that’s really an anomaly for them.

What’s the source for Finn being removed from new TFA merch? There is definitely merch that leaves him (but not Poe) off going back to 2015. I have pics to prove it. But I had a much harder time finding FN-2187 merch (blood streaked helmet) until the last year or so. SuperHeroStuff has several Finn shirts for sale, including an FN2187 and a “I’m kind of a big deal” tee I never saw when TFA came out. Not to mention WalMart sells multiple Finn and Rey figure sets and other Finn toys, well more than Poe toys, especially from TFA lines.

So what are they basing it on?

Yeah I’ve had the same experience as you, that Finn merch (and FN-2187 merch) is easier to find now than it has been so far. And no I’m not talking about shops where I’ve been asking about it. I mean just seeing it in the normal toy/figure/SW/whatever section of the shop along side all the rest.

I used to have to dig – or ask – about it, now I can often find it on the shelf. Or at least more often than I used to.

I’m not saying it doesn’t/hasn’t happened, but it conflicts very much with my own experience. So I too would like some actual examples of this.

Disney parks and there stores are a very different situation. They have very little if any Finn merchandise that’s not just an action figure. I know cause every time I go to Disney I ask what Finn merchandise do you have? Shit I was in Disneyland right after tlj came out. All Finn got was a couple figurines Rose didn’t get much either. Yet the porgs where fucking everywhere. They do this with all there non-white Star Wars characters. I made a post about it awhile back and seems nothing has changed.

You can go to Disney official website and see there dismally small supply of Finn merchandise. Meanwhile kylo, rey, luke, Han and Leia are easy to find. Do to the solo movie we did get more Lando merchandise but I see it falling off soon. I remember that campaign about where’s Rey and how she got all new toys and merchandise. Wish we could get that same energy for Finn the current male lead of the series.

But people are saying Finn has been “removed” from new TFA merchandise, not that Disney parks stock less Finn than WalMart, which has been true from the beginning. All that says is that people who shop at Disney are less interested in Finn merch than people who shop at WalMart, where there are a decent number of Finn items.

There’s a big difference between Finn merch not being on shelves vs Finn Merch not being made or removed. If anything, Finn merch sitting on the shelves is a bad thing. It means no one is buying it.

Yup and the only toys I’ve ever seen in the 80% off bargain bin are Kylo and Pretorian guards. The dollar store near me still has unsold $1 Kylo Ren items from three years ago, while the Finn versions are long gone (and I know they were there because I bought some of them). That’s all anecdotal, too – the business journal articles about Kylo items massively underselling aren’t, though. The business of merchandising is separate from the business of making the films (look at FoD, Finn has two episodes, Kylo has zero, yet there was Kylo doll). And in the case of LF, their merchandising Dept has always had tremendous bias in favor of white buyers who want white toys.

What are the business articles describing the underselling off kylo items?

The focus on Kylo merchandise over the heroes, especially Rey, was a scandal in early 2016 covered extensively in the media.

John Marcotte of Heroic Girls was widely quoted after he spoke with Disney execs about the lack of Rey merchandise when TFA was released. He said they were “blindsided” with the lack of interest in Kylo, who they expected to be the breakout character. He said, quote:

“Now they’re stuck with vast amounts of Kylo Ren product that is not moving and a tidal wave of complaints about a lack of Rey items.”

The miscalculation led to a TFA script rewrite to focus more on Finn, Poe and Rey. RJ had planned to focus on his own new characters, as well as Kylo, presumably.

TFA toy sales were huge despite of Disney’s miscalculation. Top TFA toys per Google research were the app enabled BB8, Millennium Falcon toys and Lego sets, Stormtrooper figures, and Rey items once they started rolling out.

It’s also been widely reported that TLJ’s toy sales fell by 47% compared to TFA sales. Hasbro CEO blamed releasing the toys in September, but later noted that Star Wars merchandise was picking up online (where fans have choices beyond leftover TLJ merch like the Pretorian guards that didn’t sell).

The cult of Kylo Ren in fandom and on social media has not translated into blockbuster sales of Kylo merchandise.