rey: [ok, it’s simple, just tell finn you’re in love with him and want to go out with him]
rey: [actually, maybe just take baby steps and ask him out]
rey: [he probably already knows i’m in love with him, i don’t need to tell him right away]
rey: [yeah, i’ll just ask him to go on a date with me. we’ll go to naboo or something. no, that’s too romantic! endor. we’ll go to endor. yeah. baby steps. ok. there he is. be cool, rey.]
rey: so, finn…
rey: [come on, rey, spit it out]
finn: what’s up?
rey: i was wondering…
rey: [if you knew i want to have your babies]
rey: um…
rey: [you’re wondering if he’d be interested in going on a date sometime! just say it! ask him!]
rey: i was wondering… ah…
finn: yes rey
rey: [he said yes! wait no, he just wants to know what i was going to ask him. shoot this is hard]
rey: i…
rey: [have incredibly poor communication skills, why did i have to grow up alone in the desert]
finn: what is it rey?
rey: i was wondering… about your friend poe.
rey: [what did you just say]
finn: what about him
rey: [what are you doing]
rey: yeah, um… could you like, maybe…
rey: [what is wrong with you you’re avoiding the subject you wanted to talk to him about forget poe don’t finish that sentence are you listening to yourself snap out of it and quit being nervous]
rey: could you set me up with him?
rey: [how are those words escaping your mouthhole? you came to ask out FINN! this is the exact opposite of what you wanted to do]
finn: sure i can set you up
*later*
poe: hey rey finn told me–
rey: HELP ME FINN’S FRIEND I SCREWED UP HELP ME I SCREWED UP I SCREWED UP
“Finn’s friend” lmao I died.
@lj-writes make one from Finn’s perspective, you coward lol
It’s not mine, it’s an anon submission so… there’s your request, nonny!
It still bothers me that Kylo Ren never used the Force against Finn. I mean, we’re talking about the guy who’s been shown doing this
and this
and this
also this
and so much more to his enemies and even people who just kind of annoyed him in the moment. The dude has oodles of Force power and is not at all shy about throwing it around. Other Force users are not immune, as shown with Rey who is even more powerful than he is.
So why, in his fight against Finn at the end of TFA, did Ren never even try to use the Force? Finn went running to an unconscious Rey after Ren knocked her out. Finn had even thrown his blaster aside, not that blasters work against Ren as Poe found out at the start of the movie. Why didn’t Ren throw Finn against a tree, too, or lift him into the air and choke him? That’s more like the guy’s usual MO.
Instead Ren not only dueled Finn but even resorted to punching him after disarming him, which had viewers commenting that his animosity against Finn seemed very raw and personal. It is true that Ren seems to have a personal beef against Finn (link), but again, the new Supreme Leader of the First Order has never been hesitant to use Force power against people regardless of how well he knew them or how strongly he felt about them. He revels in making people, from total strangers to hated rivals, helpless with his power. So why not Finn?
My hypothesis is that there’s another layer to Ren’s animosity against Finn beyond the usually-discussed ones of Finn defecting and making the opposite choices he did, and Ren’s hatred being the manifestation of his regrets. That’s a valid point and I have argued it myself (link), but what if there’s something more immediate and visceral going on?
Let’s go back to that moment in the village near the beginning of TFA, when Ren stared for a long moment at Finn before he turned away. He then unfreezes Poe’s blaster beam to strike a pole Finn was standing near, startling him and showering him with sparks.
What exactly prompted the staring and the intimidation here? There have been many speculations, from his realizing that Finn had not fired at the villagers to sensing Finn’s Force sensitivity. These are sound possibilities, but what if there’s something else? What if this scene is key to their interactions throughout the movie, and ties into the abovementioned duel scene at the end?
Let me propose an alternate scenario: Kylo Ren, having ordered the slaughter of unarmed prisoners, senses a disturbance in the Force–or rather, a lack of disturbance where there should be one. Remember what Chirrut said in Rogue One: “The Force moves darkly around a creature that is about to kill.” Given that the Force is the connection between living beings, I can imagine that this dark movement of the Force would persist for at least a little while afterward.
So let’s say Kylo Ren senses that there is no dark movement of the Force around Finn that indicates he had killed or intended to kill someone. He turns and stares directly at that point of light amid the darkened swirls in the Force.
Now, this alone could be enough to annoy him and he might find it reason enough to bully Finn. But what if his stare was about more than sensing the Force around Finn and realizing this Trooper had not obeyed his orders? Wouldn’t you be at least a little curious at such an anomaly, maybe try and see if the Trooper had simply lost his nerve or if something more was going on?
What if the intensity of Kylo Ren’s stare indicated that he was trying to skim the surface of Finn’s mind, something the target might not even feel unlike a full mind probe? Just enough to tell what thoughts and emotions were going through the Trooper’s mind?
What if it didn’t work?
Imagine the turmoil, even embarrassment Kylo Ren would have felt in this scenario. His entire life was defined for better and for worse by being a powerful Force user. It was the source of his self-worth, the reason for his perceived superiority, the means by which he dominated others. Then to have something so simple as a mind scan fail to work on a lowly Stormtrooper, as though he had been walled off? Imagine his astonishment, then fury.
At this point it is entirely in character for Ren to unfreeze the blaster beam in a pique, intimidating Finn and reasserting control over the situation in his own mind. It was a reassurance to himself that his Force powers were still as potent as ever–the blaster beam hovering obediently in the air was proof enough!–and still worked on even the aberrant Stormtrooper, if not directly. Ren would have soothed himself with the thought that he could have killed the Trooper if he had wanted. He was still in control. Still powerful. Still Kylo Ren.
He could tell no one. He couldn’t even kill the Trooper, at least not outright, because it would raise too many questions. He had to figure out what had happened, who that Trooper was, and fix this situation before Snoke or Hux had any clue of what had happened.
A lot of Ren’s fixations with Finn start to make sense under this scenario. When Hux said they were searching the registers for the Stormtrooper that had sprung the Resistance pilot and escaped, Ren’s mind immediately went to Finn. Why? Because he had been reading that particular Trooper’s file himself, combing it for clues. He thought this Trooper could very well have run away to preserve whatever his secret was.
Even Ren’s mention of the clone program to Hux takes on a new meaning in this light. He may have realized in a panic that it might not be just Finn–the entire Stormtrooper program might be a danger. All those multitudes of humans taken in and trained with no idea of their Force potential. How many others like that escaped Trooper were out there, right in the Order’s ranks? How could he prevent it from ever happening again?
To him, the clones would have seemed a promise of full control. With a single, known template he would know exactly what he was getting. Obviously there’s no saying that whatever made Finn special was genetic in nature, but to someone like Kylo Ren, who believes so strongly in the supremacy of his heritage, that would have seemed the paramount factor.
As the movie progresses Ren certainly gains more and more reasons to hate Finn. But the hatred he has for Finn seems different from what he feels for the many others who oppose him, as though Finn touched on his rawest nerves and his very existence is an insult. Again, there are other perfectly valid explanations for this hatred. But then we return to the first question: why not use the Force on Finn? Not during combat, and not even when he finally has Finn helpless and under his power?
This may have been another reason for Ren’s interest in Rey. His cover was that the scavenger could give him the map to Luke Skywalker just like the droid could, but another key point about her was that she had traveled with Finn and might be able to provide information about him that a droid could not. Ren must have had a wealth of information from mechanical scans of Finn, which likely revealed nothing, but what he didn’t have was the impression of an organic being who had cared enough to interact on a personal level with him and so provide vital clues.
Besides, it wasn’t like he could conduct in-depth interviews of First Order personnel without drawing suspicion, not that he trusted any of them in the first place. The scavenger on the other hand was a prisoner from whom he could, as he put it, take whatever he wanted. It would also explain why he would take her as his personal prisoner and interrogated her himself from the start rather than leave her to Stormtroopers and droids. The information about Luke Skywalker he might share with the First Order, but he could not afford to let anyone else know about Finn’s mysterious qualities should the prisoner give up any salient details. The discovery of Rey’s Force abilities and her ability to push him out of her mind would have thrown a wrench in the works, obviously.
The next time Kylo Ren sees Finn it’s at the oscillator on Starkiller Base after Han’s death, and he is enraged for so many different reasons at this point. Is there also some fear behind that anger, though? Is there a reason he’s focused so specifically on Finn over Rey, whose Force powers have proven even greater than Ren’s? If Finn represents a vulnerability for Ren that not even Rey does, the idea that Ren’s power itself might have holes and might not work, that would go a long way toward explaining the intensity of his reaction.
When Finn and Rey escape, Ren tracks them down personally despite his injury and is waiting for them. “We’re not done yet.” Of course he’s not done with Rey, he wants her on his side and is under orders to take her to Snoke, but what if he’s also addressing Finn? Finn is still a riddle he has to solve, and if that is not possible a threat to eliminate.
Now let’s go into the leadup to Finn and Ren’s duel. One point I found interesting is that Finn and Rey were standing very close together, within what looks like 4-5 inches apart, when Ren knocked Rey into a tree. They were standing close together in the first place, having instinctively closed ranks on seeing Ren.
See how Finn’s left shoulder and Rey’s right actually overlap while she calls Ren a monster:
So my question is: Why was only Rey pushed, and not Finn? We know it’s possible to Force
push several opponents at once if they’re close to each other, it
happened frequently in The Clone Wars for instance. See, for instance, Asajj Vetress pushing two mooks at once (all Clone Wars gifs are from a Force push compilation on YouTube, and have been very slightly slowed down):
Or two Force users in close quarters being pushed away together:
Jedi get this treatment, too.
So do droids.
Compare the above to Finn and Rey in the woods when Ren used the Force push:
Does this seem incongruent to you as well? Finn and Rey were standing as close to each other as any of the Force pushees in The Clone Wars examples, likely closer together than any of them in fact, yet only Rey is blown back and Finn is not affected at all.
Sure, maybe Ren was immediately
focused on Rey because she was the more immediate threat with the
blaster, and maybe he wanted to concentrate the push to send her particularly
far. If these other examples are any indication, though, it seems at the very least unusual for someone who was standing so close to the intended target to be so entirely unaffected by even a byblow.
And speaking of focusing on Rey, there’s another thing about the Force push that always bothered me. Anti reylos have pointed out, correctly, that throwing Rey that high against a tree could have killed her. Yet, to me, that doesn’t fit what Ren was trying to achieve. He was intrigued by this girl’s powers and was thinking about recruiting her, why would he try to kill her? Throw off her blaster beam, sure. Gain an advantage in the fight with the aim of capturing her, yes. But throw her so high and hard he ran the risk of killing her? That doesn’t make sense, not because he’s any less evil but because it’s not in his self-interest.
Unless… what if he didn’t mean to push her that high? What if he had been aiming at both Finn and Rey and had meant to achieve something much like the Clone Wars examples above, pushing them both to distract them and throw them off? Except the Force push, having met an immovable object in Finn, channeled around to hit Rey and Rey alone, hitting her with far more power than Ren intended?
If it’s true that Ren was aiming at both Finn and Rey, or at least pushed in a way that would normally have affected both, he would have gained yet more confirmation that Finn was, as Phasma put it in a different context, a “bug in the system.” Beyond being his opposite in every way Finn was something that shouldn’t exist, that reminded Ren that he could not control everyone and everything.
Finn is far from invulnerable, of course, as Ren himself took great lengths to prove. Yet he did so entirely by physical means, in contrast to his usual style of throwing his Force powers around especially on people who can’t defend themselves. Viewers interpret this as a choice on Ren’s part, a physical expression of his grudge against Finn. What if he had no choice because physical means were the only ones that worked?
And what does Ren do once he has wounded and incapacitated Finn? Instead of finishing off his enemy he reaches immediately for Anakin’s lightsaber, calling to it through the Force. It’s like he has something to prove, especially after the sight of Finn holding it and using it against him.
In sum, I think there’s a case for saying that Ren never used the Force against Finn because it doesn’t work against him, and that this discovery early in TFA was the driver behind his and Finn’s tension throughout the movie. This means that Finn has a unique Force power, something Ren finds more threatening than even a powerful Force user like Rey. Such a reveal would have tremendous implications for the ongoing story and the nature of the Force itself.
Of course, it’s also possible the whole thing was simply an oversight on the filmmakers’ part, but if so I find it an interesting speculation to fill the gap.
Star Wars Rebels: 3×05 Hera’s Heroes // 4×15 Family Reunion & Farewell
Cultural appropriation is a form of colonialism where cultural elements are copied from a minority culture by members of a dominant culture and used outside of their original context. The original meaning is lost or distorted, and such displays are viewed as disrespectful, or even desecration, by the originating culture.
Cultural appropriation differs from equal cultural exchange due to an imbalance of power from oppression. The imitator can temporarily “play” an “other” without experiencing the daily discrimination faced by that people. Traditions, symbols, and art with deep meaning may be reduced to “exotic” fashion or toys.
Look how Thrawn even throws out the same hypocritical platitudes as his RL counterparts, “Don’t you want your culture to be appreciated?” “Don’t you want to promote cultural sharing?”
One of the reasons the idea of “TLJ is good because it was subversive” bothers me is because the prequels were more subversive and that doesn’t give them a free pass for their racism and moments of bad writing in media discussion.
Japanese stereotypes used in Neimodians, cultural dressing slapped across Naboo, and Watto all deserve to be criticized, and they are. But a lot of “liberal” fans of TLJ will explain away any claims of racism as reaching and any claims of bad writing as whiny fanboys. Yet for every point of subversion that TLJ tries, the prequels do it better.
TLJ: Luke throws away the lightsaber when we expect him to do something proactive.
Prequels: Supposedly peaceful Jedi are violent in the first scene.
TLJ: OT Sad Yoda became carefree after death.
Prequels: OT Pacifist Yoda wasn’t always a pacifist. (I’ve seen so many people complain that Yoda is a different character in AoTC, ignoring that he becomes the hideaway after RoTS.)
TLJ: Rey’s parents are nobodies.
Prequels: The origins of fan favorite Obi-Wan Kenobi don’t bother with his parentage, as it’s unimportant.
TLJ: Luke was willing to kill his nephew to prevent a massacre.
Prequels: The Republic, expected to be good compared to the Empire, was willing to utilize a slave army to win a war.
TLJ: You can’t trust criminals and terrorists after all, but military secrets are good.
Prequels: The Jedi weren’t guardians of peace, but mongers of war.
Subversion doesn’t equal quality, and weak subversions aren’t even worth getting excited about. (Moth)
Oscar requesting that his character not be killed early on, or at least having reservations, is something he actually talked about, though (link). That doesn’t mean Poe can’t still rise in prominence, of course. The character went from dying early on to leading a subplot of the second movie and his own comic series, after all. And all the while Finn can’t even get a book of his own.
Okay, no quite what happened. Can’t dig out the interview right now but what went down was the JJ set up a meeting with Oscar – I think it was at a cafe in Paris because Oscar was shooting there at the time – and presented him with Poe’s role, including the character dying early on. Oscar told JJ that he was tired of playing guys who died early (he’d done a number of those roles recently) and that he wasn’t really interested in doing it again. So basically, thanks but no thanks.
They then went their separate ways and Oscar thought it through and decided that he’d rather be doing Poe and die early, than having someone else do him. So he called JJ back prepared to take the role as JJ had presented it to him, only JJ then told him he’d changed it and found something for Poe to do later on and so kept him alive.
It’s not guilt by association. He had full knowledge and was entirely complicit in the destruction of Hosnia. He KNEW about the plan to destroy Hosnia, he was right there when Hux presented the plan and Snoke approved it, but didn’t do Jack Schitt to warn anyone. Instead he doubled down, imploring Gramps to help him stay strong in the Darkness. He literally stood and watched Hosnia happen, knowing it was wrong and even conflicted about it but having made his choice.
This is where the comparisons to Zuko are so insulting. When Zuko found out about his father and sister’s plan to destroy the entire Earth Kingdom he realized this was a bridge too far and refused to be part of it. He confronted his father and then left the Fire Nation to train the Avatar in order to put a stop to the planned genocide. Even a sixteen-year-old boy who had been abused and scarred by his own father acted against and refused to be part of what he knew to be unconscionable.
And YES, throwing Kylo Ren in jail is for the greatest good. The Resistance sure as hell don’t need him. He’s already killed off Snoke, ending up doing some good that way for his selfish reasons, and Rey is stronger in the Force than he is. Finn could still be revealed to be Force sensitive. The Resistance never needed Kylo Ren, and Rey would have seen that from the first if not for her insecurities and self-doubts. I have already detailed how the Resistance could still come back from the end of TLJ (link). I don’t think the lack of one murderous white guy with an overblown sense of his own importance is going to doom them lol. I would far rather place hope in the people around the galaxy, heroes who have sacrificed so much for galactic freedom, and the tens of thousands of enslaved Stormtroopers than on a selfish, narcissistic elitist.
Throwing Kylo in prison would not just be for his involvement in the genocide of a Star System, which he definitely is. The Order was given by Snoke, Hux and Kylo share equal blame.
Let’s list off the known/on screen crimes that would throw Kylo in prison:
Kylo and the Knights of Ren killed their fellow classmates and burned Luke’s temple.
Kylo killed a defenseless Lor San Tekka in cold blood.
Kylo ordered the slaughter of the surrending Jakku villagers.
Kylo tortured Poe, a New Republic Soldier.
Kylo led an attack on Max’s castle and was responsible for the deaths multiple people.
Kylo killed Han, a General in the New Republic.
Kylo led the attack on Leia’s ship, personally killing many of the soldiers on the hanger, like Tallie Lintra. Also this attack Kylo led, killed multiple high ranking soldiers still in affiliation with the New Republic, like Admiral Ackbar.
And finally, Kylo led and ordered the attack to destroy the rest of the Resistance that caused the deaths of multiple New Republic soldiers, including Commander Luke Skywalker.
Kylo at this point is lucky is he gets prison. It’s would be a charity, that would literally be a favor of the greatness magnitude for Leia.
Death is too easy. I want him to stew for the rest of his life in the humiliation of defeat, ranting about how right he is. And if he does end up seeing what horrible, irreversible crimes he committed and his conscience mauls him for the rest of his life so he never has a moment of peace, then all the better.
I don’t want Kylo to die, because death means nothing to him.
A fitting karma would be for Kylo to loose his connection to the force and be cut off from it for good.
THE OZAI SOLUTION OMG
THIS. I want him to be imprisoned for the rest of his life BUT at the same time I want his connection to the Force be permanently cut.
Also, can we please just add that he needs to be held accountable simply for the narrative and world to be believable? Imagine if the crimes listed above were simply tossed aside or he‘d only get a slap on the hand for it. It would destroy SW for me (and I love Kylo) and much worse, imagine what kind of message that would send to children and adults alike who watch SW? That‘s ok to torture and murder if you regret it afterwards, esp if you‘re a white man? That you will be forgiven and that those destroyed lives, ultimately, don‘t matter?
Just because one might feel for him as a character, doesn‘t and mustn‘t absolve him from his deeds. So yeah, put that boy in prison. Hold him accountable.
I think the author of Twilight is a member of the LDS church, and though the more conservative strains of Mormonism may have some things in common with Christian fundamentalism there’s enough anti-Mormon bigotry in Christian fundamentalist circles that they probably shouldn’t be conflated. But you’re right, it’s a very specific and to me creepy kind of wish fulfillment.
TLJ may be more Christian than you think, though. I had conversations with both @kyberfox and @attackfish about how blatantly, painfully white and Christian a story TLJ is, more in the cultural than religious sense. It’s really a jarring tonal change from TFA which was directed and written by Jewish creators.
As a result Rey is no longer the scrappy heroine from TFA burning with anger at the injustice done to her and those she loves. Rather she’s a pure and patient maiden devoted to the redemption of the “sinner” who wronged her. The whole movie has a pretty nonsensical message about how you shouldn’t hate your oppressors for Reasons and love will save us all? Somehow?
So yeah, Rey is one of the characters who were failed by the storytelling but her story is also symptomatic of the movie as a whole and its incoherent, sometimes downright repugnant message.
@thatfantasylovingdork Okay. You seem desperate enough for my attention to get into my notes months after I ignored your first comment, so let’s do this.
First of all, I am not Jewish myself and was relying on comments by my some of my Jewish friends that their culture is more accepting of anger as a response to injustice, and women’s anger in particular, compared to cultural Christianity dominant in Europe and the U.S. Rey’s character could be seen as a reflection of such a cultural archetype. I certainly don’t mean that all Jewish people are angry (though I don’t blame them if they are tbh), or thatthere is any one Jewish experience or any one Jewish culture for that matter. It’s a statement of a few anecdotal experiences with particular Jewish cultures, just like yours is.
Second of all, I don’t know what to say if you think Rey was angry and easily pissed off for “no reason,” especially toward the end after you watched her assaulted, kidnapped, tortured, and forced to watch people she cared about murdered and almost murdered. I heartily hope you don’t apply that standard to real people.
Third of all, since you are so very ready to invalidate the effect of everything Kylo Ren ever did (”no reason” lmao), it’s not surprising that you’re calling for him to be forgiven or rather, it seems to me, absolved of all accountability for his actions. I don’t even want him to die, personally, I want him to be in jail for the rest of his life to think about what he’s done. Would you be okay with that, I wonder, or is that too violent for you? I’m also okay with him dying a violent death, and if he is killed it will be to end the immediate threat he represents and not a “heartless murder.”
@thatfantasylovingdork Thank you for taking the time to tell me about your beliefs, but not everyone believes in supernatural beings or a divine/universal will. I don’t believe in the death penalty but I’m not crying for hanged Nazis, and killing in self-defense is entirely justifiable.
Also did you just say “misandrist” like it’s a real thing asdjklf yes, I’m sure Rey was “rude” because Finn was a guy and not because she initially (and mistakenly, thanks BB-8) thought he was a thief and possibly a murderer, and later because she was told she had become a shooting target because of him. I’m sure the real problem was his gender. Yeah. Right.
I… can’t tell anymore if you’re serious or trolling? This oh-so-caring woman had just tried to kill him and his friend twice, and the first time she deliberately wanted to make them suffer. How could Finn have rescued her without risking his own life? Climb down into a firepit when she was a still-active threat who would no doubt have tried to kill him again? Why did he have to repay a lifetime of abuse plus recent attempts to kill him by risking his life for hers?
But yeah, sure it was because she was white. Because reverse racism is just as real as misandry. Lmaoooo.
Tell me, do you make a habit of disregarding outright attempts to kill people and calling abuse “caring?” If you do this to real people I really want you to get far away from me and preferably people in general.
Holy shit they needed to make him even WORSE? This also seems to be an interesting tie-in to the Empire’s anti-alien agenda from the Legends (and possibly current?) canon.
Imagine thinking that way about your dad’s dearest friend.
If he needs to find peace from people patting his ass and telling him it wasn’t his fault, then fuck his peace. That sounds, again, suspiciously like a threat that the people he hurt need to swallow down their pain and anger and endlessly accommodate him to avoid a greater threat, whether from the First Order or Kylo Ren’s own darkness. It’s his own damned responsibility to find peace, not the people he tortured and tried to murder.
The same goes for Padmé: There is no peace without justice, and if she was seeking “peace” by literally getting in bed with a mass murderer at the expense of justice for murdered children, then her idea of peace is not peace but appeasement.
I also never said the stabbing attempt would be a positive thing, I specifically said it was suicide and too little, too late. It would be an expression of despair born out of Anakin’s crimes and guilt for her own silence, not a positive development. At least it would show an awareness that she had made a terrible mistake, not a doubling down on the same make-nice avoidance of accountability that had worked so spectacularly (as in, not at all) before.
I’m an Anidala shipper and… I don’t think it would have been OOC for her to try to kill Anakin after confirming what he had done. Going to Mustafar specifically to kill him, with the twins along for the ride wouldn’t make sense imo. But having her wake up after he choked her and shoot him, causing him to fall and burn, during his duel with Obi-Wan would have. It would also have been preferable to the high ground explanation.
Exactly! Let her play an active role Lucas you coward.