We now know who is most likely the gunner in the Falcon during the Crait attack: Rey
Makes sense, since with his arm length and experience Chewie is the better choice to pilot the Falcon alone. (Well, alone with a random porg on the console. Did they leave Ahch-To in a hurry? New ship’s mascot?)
OMG this would mean Rey is a pilot and Finn a gunner in TFA, while Finn is a pilot and Rey a gunner in TLJ. How neat is that?
So like sorry to cross the streams but I get so much Finnrey feels from Zeke and Mylene in TGD Season 1. (I’m not done with the season, pls don’t spoil. Conversely, if you’re not up to Episode 5 or so there are spoilers below.)
Much of it has to do with the structure of their stories. Z and M start out together on an adventure that ended in catastrophe at basically a den of evil. They are now pursuing their separate musical adventures that interweave with each other. Finn and Rey originally traveled together in an adventure that ended with an epic showdown and lots of explosions at Bad Guy HQ, and now they will be on separate journeys each figuring themselves out and growing as heroes.
It also amuses the hell out of me that Mylene’s adventure involves a teacher who was once a hero but who bombed out and is suffering from severe mental health issues, and a familial relationship bound up in secrets with a man who certainly has more than a little darkness in him. (To be clear Luke has never been and will never be as big a shit as Jackie was, and Papa Fuerte will never ever touch Snoke and Kylo’s level of evil. Calling that right now.)
Even more, though, I like that the show makes it clear that it’s a good thing for Mylene and Zeke to be having separate adventures and to be growing into their own people. So far we see Mylene trying twice to get Zeke to go with her on her adventure and fail, first to Manhattan to her recording session with Jackie and then to find Jackie in his hotel room. He declines both times to be with his own crew, but she does brilliantly on her own and with the help of her friends Yolanda and Regina. Other times he comes out to support her by accompanying her on the piano and with his writing, and she ends up supporting his music as well by providing him with her record. (The way he convinced her… *melts into a puddle on the floor* Are we going to see Finn get game, too, as he comes into his strength?)
Similarly, Rey did the right thing for both herself and Finn by going away on her own, much as she feared separation. The soul-shaking connection she had shared with Finn was not the end of their journeys but a lauchpad to fly off of, so they could grow into the people they were meant to be. She had gained faith that they would meet again, no matter where they were, no matter how they changed on their separate roads.
I also love that, despite how cute they are, Mylene and Zeke still want different things, or are figuring out what they want. It’s similar to how Finn and Rey, for all they adore each other, still have a lot of growing to do. Finn and Rey might still grow apart as a couple if they turn out to want fundamentally different things, and that’s okay. They are not two halves of a person, they are two young people fiercely in love who are also striving to find their places in the universe. That is the source of the suspense and conflict in their relationship, and what makes me so excited about their story.
This supports my theory that there is going to be some parallels between Finn and Rey’s storylines. I think they’re both going to struggle with finding their place and identities (which includes learning about the families neither of them knew) and will deal with a personal shoulder angel and devil.
For Rey I think her “devil” will at least initially be Kylo and her angel be Luke, where Finn will have Rose as his angel and DJ as his devil. However, as the story goes the lines between angel/devil and good/evil are going to get pretty blurred.
This isn’t to say that Luke and Rose will actually be evil and DJ and Kylo will be good, because that still requires the characters to operate under this good/evil dichotomy that Rian apparently wants to eliminate or at least smudge. Therefore, I think this will just mean that Luke and Rose will do things or have motivations that while aren’t evil, are also not exactly “good” while DJ and Kylo will do things or have motivations that are certainly not “evil”.
I think the experiences will ultimately land Rey and Finn somewhere in the middle as far as being a hero and villain goes. For me, this means that while they will not be “villains” by any stretch of the imagination they aren’t going to be the perfect heroes that the audience may think Rey is or Rose thinks Finn is at the beginning. How this will actually look, I really don’t know.
I’ve speculated about Finn becoming a balancing power in the galaxy, a) neither Resistance nor FO, or b) the leader of a distinct subgroup within the Resistance/Republic, and it’s… the least popular Finn meta I’ve ever written so maybe it wasn’t very good 🤣
My speculation about Rey is that she won’t be a Jedi in the traditional sense but follow a different tradition/strike out on her own path. Not that she’ll be partly evil or something, but that she won’t subscribe to the anti-Dark Side puritanism of the Old Jedi.
I think, in other words, that Finn and Rey will be the Balance together, fundamentally good but unafraid of morally ambiguous pragmatism and owing their allegiance not to organizations but their own consciences, traits they have already shown in TFA.
I really like this and if TLJ runs along these lines it could be a decent movie (depending on the amount of Kale woobification going on)
I have two things I really want to add.
First:
I don’t think we’re going to see Jedi!Finn in this either, I fully agree with you there. Though part of me had hoped that since they seem to be expanding on Force traditions/views of the Force, they would use Finn that way and introduce another tradition via him. Possibly using Maz as a teacher.
No such luck it seems. Unless I’m right about Rose being from Jedha and they’re using her and her background in that capacity. But I’m not gonna hold my breath for this to happen.
Like you, what I could see is Rian (the jackass) further and more strongly hinting at Finn’s Force sensitivity through the movie with a confirmation at the end of it.
I’ve been thinking about how when it comes to fighting/not fighting Finn’s and Rey’s journeys seems to run counter point constantly. He wants to get away in TFA, she’s somewhat committed to fighting (though part of her is still drawn to Jakku).
In TLJ Finn finds his will and desire to fight, while I could see Rey wanting less and less of the fight in part due to Luke’s depression and lack of enthusiasm for training her and her confrontation with Snoke might make her just want to get the hell out of Dodge in the end.
It could be an interesting conclusion to TLJ if it ends on a reverse note than TFA, with Finn being confirmed Force sensitive (possibly by Luke who would have shown up by then) and Rey just really not wanting anything more to do with any of it.
Secondly, about this:
And, to be equally blunt, the Star Wars fandom has a bad case of ‘only Force-Users matter!’ when it comes to characters. Non-Force Users tend to get dismissed or overlooked, and writers in the Star Wars universe have the same problem.
Really, fandom’s problem here stems from canon. Not just the movies which have always centered around Force users and would color the perception of the general audience, but the old EU had the same problem with the overwhelming majority of the material focusing on Force users too.
So much so that it was bound to skew both fandom’s and most of the general audience’s perception of who is important.
Would I like to see that “fixed” so that non-Force users were seen as equally important? Yes, I very much would. But can’t use a Black character to “fix” that.
It’s awful, yes, that the promotion for the movie–if not the movie itself–plays into the same prioritization of white characters that’s so prevalent in fandom. For those of us who are interested in characters other than Kyn and have no desire to see him treated as a poor baby, the promotion has been like the anti-promotion (demotion?) that’s actively discouraging formerly interested fans from seeing the movie. I did not get into a more diverse Star Wars only to watch the white mass murderer take center stage and have his ass licked 24/7, ffs.
The only way I can remotely understand the decision to promote the movie this way is if Kilo is both humanized and killed off in this movie, as speculated in this thread started by @kyberfox based on interviews by Adam. It wouldn’t make the promotion less shitty, but I would get so much retroactive glee.
If it eases your mind, anon, what Rainy Johnson meant was that while there are people being attracted to each other in the movie romance is not a centerpiece as with Han and Leia in ESB. Which, as @diversehighfantasypointed out, is more a count against HellNo than for it, since Rey’s relationship with Kik is supposed to be so central to this movie.
I understand your nervousness and I hate the fact that this shit fandom even planted that apprehension in my mind, but objectively there’s nothing pointing to a romance here. I mean if it happens against all expectations I’ll have to deal with that in some way, probably by leaving, but at this point there’s no basis for thinking it would.
The worst thing about this is that there is no apparent consideration of the fact that Rey actually, in canon, reciprocates that concern and care to Finn.
They don’t even try to hide the fact that what they want is whitewashed Finnrey, holy shit.
A great post with some fresh takes that’s soon to be downvoted into Oblivion on r/starwarsspeculation.
Here’s a highlight:
Hmmm….
There’s a lot more to it, including a couple of other points I hadn’t seen before. Read the whole thing!
Also they have the best response to the first comment, which gently but condescendingly brushes the theory off, saying Finn is “us,” the “normal guy.”:
luckyguess100 says: “I don’t see your disagreement so much as a direct dispute to my points as it is a personal opinion on what you feel Finn represents, and the boundaries you’d prefer him to stay within. That’s perfectly understandable. However, if he’s representing me, that’s all the more reason for me to want to see him become something more significant in this universe than the guy tackling smaller victories.”
just a stray thought but d’you think rose is supposed to be closer to poe’s age than finn’s
like kmt is 28 and if its true that rian johnson originally wanted gina rodriguez for the role, she’s in her thirties, plus the vague information we’ve gotten about rose being a realistic or jaded type points more to a character closer to 30 than 20?
overall i feel like that would make it more possible she could be one of luke’s former students, at that point in time she would be in her 20s and more capable of surviving an attack, or wouldn’t even be at the school anymore
but less likely that she could be luke’s daughter (yeah sorry I never entirely let go of rose skywalker)
although they did cast a really obviously 30somethings to play jyn and cassian who were supposed to be like 21 and 26 so.. i mean its not a huge important plot point anyway just a thought i had
@imception Yes I’ve had that thought for the same reasons you mentioned. Plus, Tatiana Maslaney was supposedly also on the short list for Rose and she’s 32. So we now have three actresses who are late 20s, early 30s.
What you mention about Rose being a former padawan of Luke’s become even more interesting in the light of that fight training btw video from yesterday where we see Kelly Marie train with a bamboo blade/kendo stick. It makes it look like Rose might be using a sword like weapon at some point in TLJ.
If she’s from Jedha as Mara theorized before AND was Luke’s student, considering all the different Force religions on Jedha she could have some really interesting knowledge of and skills in the Force.
“We have to fight” and what it may mean for Finn and Rey
Who is Finn saying the “We have to fight” line in the trailer to? My guess is it’s Rey. Not only does it parallel but also contrast with his heartfelt confession to Rey in Takodana, it would be a reflection of what are likely to be their respective arcs in TLJ–Rey’s from certainty and action to complexity and hesitation, Finn’s from withdrawal and passivity to passion and conviction.
I discussed in another post that Finn’s and Rey’s arcs in TFA show them moving in opposite directions of yin and yang; Finn goes from belief and action (yang) to a desire to withdraw (yin), while Rey goes from passive waiting (yin) to reaching out and fighting back (yang).
Other than the interrupting crisis of Rey’s capture snd the destruction of Starkiller Base, this is the state they are still in at the beginning of TLJ: Rey is taking a step forward in the fight, finding and seeking help from Luke, while Finn wants to get away from the fighting. As in TFA, it seems TLJ will reverse their polarities again, as though they are in a wistful dance, one stepping forward while the other steps back, each gazing longingly at the other across the distance that separates them.
It should be noted that there is nothing wrong with either the state of action or passivity, at least in Taoist thought. Neither yin nor yang is good or evil in itself, and each can be used for both good and evil. I imply no value judgment for either state, including that of courage or cowardice. Passivity can be profoundly courageous, as when Finn in his uncertainty and trauma hesitated to shoot the villagers. Uncertainty can similarly result from an honest reckoning with new information, which is wisdom and not cowardice.
My guess is that the “We have to fight” line comes when Finn and Rey meet again, their polarities reversed since their meeting in Takodana with him having gained conviction and a reason to fight while she wavers. Unlike the conversation on Takodana this could be the moment where they come into balance, where he gives her the certainty to fight while she gives him insight into the nuances of their situation. Unlike Takodana, where they parted, Crait could be where they join together in a common cause.
Fans have been excitedly speculating about the possibility of a Stormtrooper uprising in The Last Jedi, and one intriguing aspect of it is that it may make the rebelling Troopers a third power in the galaxy that is neither First Order nor Resistance/Republic. This would give Finn as their leader deciding power in many of the military and political struggles of the galaxy, someone who could sway the balance of power.
Fans generally assume that Finn’s allegiance is to the Resistance and Republic because they’re the good guys, and certainly he has allied with the Resistance in their shared opposition to the First Order. I have discussed in the essay Finn does not give a fuck about your idols that he was not a follower of the Resistance, however, and in The trouble with the Light Side and Finn as the Balance I discussed, among other subjects, how the Republic doesn’t mean much more to Finn than the Resistance does.
Here, below the cut, I will talk about how Finn’s freestanding status could play into his ongoing story and the politics of a galaxy far, far away.
One way to think about the issue is to consider what a Stormtrooper uprising might mean to the Resistance. I’m sure it would be a dream come true in many ways. But it’s also fraught with uncertainty. and it’s not like the Resistance can conduct a straw
poll to see how many would be on board (Would you leave the First Order if you could? Answer Yes or No). These are not your average enslaved people who would generally prefer freedom, they are a fighting force trained specifically to not only to wreak destruction and death but also be fanatically loyal to the First Order and Snoke.
Now, imagine the Resistance had a “better,” or at least much more expedient and certain, alternative. What if there were a way to kill or brainwash large numbers of Stormtroopers so that they were either no longer a threat, or would come over to the side of the Resistance? I mean, the Resistance is in the middle of a brutal war for the future of the galaxy itself. Who wouldn’t be tempted in their situation?
It could even be argued that such an action is a moral imperative. Left alone, the Stormtroopers would destroy countless lives as we have watched them do in Tuanul and Takodana. Between the uncertain option (an uprising) and the sure one (killing/brainwashing), it might be argued that the latter is not only more more expedient but more moral.
This is the kind of moral dilemma where Finn would show where he really stands. I don’t believe that he has given himself so completely to an organization that he would agree to taking away the lives and/or agency of so many people without even giving them a chance to choose. I believe he would insist that the uprising be given a chance. Alternately, if he thought he couldn’t convince the brass, he might do much what he did when he went back for Rey: Let the Resistance think what they want and then use their resources for his own ends.
“But he killed Stormtroopers!” Yes, because they were going to kill him. I mean, sorry he didn’t visibly hate himself enough for your tastes, I guess it just wasn’t enough that he spent much of the movie traumatized and wanted to get far away from the fighting. You know, almost as if he didn’t want to fight more Stormtroopers or something.
Now, here’s where things get controversial. On the flip side, I think Finn could also ally temporarily with the First Order if it meant he could stop the destruction of Stormtroopers long enough to get the uprising started. Not because the First Order are humanitarians or in any way the moral equivalent of the Resistance, obviously, but because it’s in their own selfish interest to keep their fighting force. Of course he’d yank the carpet out from under them because fuck the First Order, but if necessary he could use them.
I’m not saying the scenario above will happen, although it would be very interesting if it does. It’s one example of a plot that illustrates the kind of direction Finn’s story could take with him as an unaligned agent, loyal to the cause of personal dignity and freedom above organizations and their causes. It would also be the kind of thing Daisy talked about where good people make bad decisions and vice versa.
In the above scenario, I wonder if some might see Finn as ruthless, even fearsome for starting an uprising, which is likely to be a bloody event and in fact seems to have been, if the clips we saw in the trailers depict this event. Was it worth the destruction and loss of life, some might wonder, when the Stormtroopers could have died peacefully or had their minds bent without bloodshed?
So let’s say a Stormtrooper uprising is successful, whatever counts as success. A liberation of some large divisions of Stormtroopers, maybe, after pitched battles. What then? Would they join the Resistance?
Again, you have to think about what the goals of the Resistance are. They started out as a Republic-sponsored militia, and may become even more aligned with the goals of the Republic if the remnants of the Republic fleet join them. What does the Republic mean to the Free Troopers, anyway? Do they really want it to be restored into a New New Republic when the Republic and New Republic already failed, twice, to stop the rise of the Empire and First Order? In fact, the Old Republic actually became the Empire and the First Order was ignored or even actively aided by the New Republic’s leadership. The line between the Republic/Empire and the New Republic/First Order is not as clear when you look closely.
The Free Troopers’ capture and enslavement, in many ways, was the direct result of the failure of the New Republic. What would induce them to give their lives for its return? They know they’re against the First Order, what should they be for?
The Resistance and possibly New Republic will have to make some serious adjustments, in other words, if they want the Free Troopers’ loyalty. The enemy of their enemy may be their friend, but only friends of convenience. A deeper bond requires a lot more trust than being against the same evil, some confidence that they are headed in the same direction.
Then there’s the issue of identity. Let’s face it, a lot of Troopers will have difficulty settling into civilian lives or even the Resistance. Their lives and experiences are too different, and though well-meaning people will try to understand and help, much of it may just ring hollow because they come from such different places.
How many outsiders, for instance, can understand the Troopers’ distinct combination of pride and shame, the fact that their enemy shaped everything about their lives? That they have an identity that still give them meaning and purpose, if no longer in the First Order’s service?
A sizable number of Free Troopers would be genuine war criminals, too. What should justice look like for a fighting force that was systematically brainwashed from childhood? The military disciplines would be very different from Resistance and other Republic-allied fighting forces, too. As I touched on in Finn handles a blaster like no one else, Stormtroopers have a distinct fighting style that Finn used even after leaving the First Order.
The above are some of the reasons a number of Free Troopers, should a Stormtrooper uprising be successful, may choose to stay together as their own distinct group, even if they join another group such as the Resistance. They will probably have to form their own units and have their own leaders to be maximally effective, too.
If Stormtroopers were to stay together as a cohesive group, Finn as their leader or one of their leaders would become a very powerful person. He would have at his disposal a force that is allied in goals with the Resistance and perhaps an eventual New (New?) Republic but quite distinct in viewpoint and interests.
Perhaps most importantly, the Free Troopers would not be composed of the Republic’s elites and would have great interest in the protection of and justice for the most vulnerable. They are, in a way, the Jedi that the Old Republic’s Jedi should have been, and the irony is that they were forged by the evil that destroyed the New Republic.
This is how a Stormtrooper uprising could catapult Finn into being a third power, a force of conscience as sharp as a blade, that keeps the Resistance and the Republic true to their own ideals. He would be the Balance in the political and military senses as well as a moral one. He and his successors may become the force that stands between the galaxy and history repeating itself.
L.J.'s Obsessions 