Note: Since each part of this multipart ask asks a different question
or makes a different point I will quote each part throughout the post,
and append the screenshots after a cut for those who want to view the
originals.
To preface, this series of asks is in reference to my recent prediction of what the twist in The Last Jedi will be. This post comes with a potential spoiler warning much like the original theory post.
On
the first part, anon, your quoted passage actually gives me more
doubts. If it’s canon that Kylo slaughtered the students, why put it in
such roundabout terms? We don’t even know if the passage refers to
ironbound canon or conventional wisdom in-universe. Even if it’s canon,
betrayal and moral responsibility can refer to a lot of things from
outright murder to giving information. If Kylo murdered the students,
why not say so instead of using wording that is open to broad
interpretation?
This wording could also work with a modified theory proposed by @tegdoh in this thread, where then-Ben unwittingly betrayed his fellow students to Snoke without meaning to kill them.
None of this absolves Kylo of responsibility, of course, especially if he covered up his role in the event and especially if he hid Rey away to avoid responsibility as I suggest. But the passage you quote, much like Han’s telling in The Force Awakens, does make me wonder if Kylo Ren as a school shooter is what we have been led to believe rather than what actually happened.
also stuff like the legends of luke skywalker confirm that luke
was already travelling quite a lot after rotj. i think his temple/school
was actually very informal and it was more of a community of people who
studied the force together rather than luke as a pt style jedi master.
this is purely my assumption but i always assumed he continued to travel
and learn after forming the school, passing his knowledge on to his
‘pupils’ (2/4)
Thank you for the information, and
that’s a strong possibility, too. Like I have said, I am fully prepared
to be (and actually hoping to be) wrong. I wasn’t saying the school,
whatever its form, was definitely gone by the time of Bloodline,
only that there’s no definitive proof that it existed at that point. It
just seems odd that Luke and his apprentice were out of communication
for such long stretches of time that it’s a source of distress to Leia.
Even
if Luke was traveling a lot, it seems to me he should have been at
least reachable if he was responsible for a school. And no matter how
informal the community was there was at least a building that could be
burned down and where the students could be found and slaughtered,
suggesting some kind of fixed location that Luke needed to be in touch
with.
Even if he didn’t have the kind of responsibilities
that required his presence and contact, there is still the question of
influence. Why had he faded almost into myth when by all rights he
should have a couple of generations of students who kept his teachings
alive?
(The rest under a cut for length)
also if rey was a solo why did han and leia send an infant to
luke? i think it makes more sense that if she were at the temple it was
because she was lukes kid and he left her with his students/extended fam
while he travelled i’ve also wondered if kylo dumped her on jakku for
whatever reason but if that’s the case i really don’t think he’s going
to be played as sympathetically/heroically as your theory paints him
(¾)
As stated in the post, the theory itself is
largely agnostic on these details and can work with just about any
parentage theory. She could have been Han and Leia’s kid visiting her
brother, Luke’s daughter who lived there, a Kenobi scion or Random whom
Luke took in and so on and so forth. It does have more emotional weight
with the first two scenarios, however.
Does my theory paint
him as heroic? Maybe he’s understandable as a response to trauma and
manipulation, and sympathetic for that reason, but I thought it was
clear that he is a very unreliable narrator and what he did to Rey was
horrible.
I said in the post that abandoning Rey on Jakku was
arguably abusive, but I take it back. There’s no argument, it’s abusive
as SHIT. In my theory then-Ben took Rey’s fate into his sole purview,
put her beyond all help by faking her death, and even tampered with her
mind. That’s control, isolation, and removal of agency, three major
elements of abuse.
Note that malice is not a requirement for
abuse. Even if he had the best of intentions, even if his heart ached to
pieces for her, good intentions don’t erase the impact on Rey in the
deprivation, loneliness, danger, and trauma she suffered. Maybe he
reacted badly in the first panicked moments after the tragedy, but there
was no excuse whatsoever for leaving her there for the better part of a
decade. And this isn’t even going into Ren’s later crimes committed
directly against Rey, those she cared about, and billions of others.
don’t take this is harsh criticism i like the base idea of your
theory i just think stuff like ‘he had to kill han to protect rey’ is
kinda garbage. imo rian is going to make him ‘relatable’ but at the end
of the day he’ll still be a villain. (personally i hope he kills snoke,
take his place, offers rey a chance to join him and lose it when she
rejects him). rian talks a lot of shit but i think kylo will be even
more in the dark by the end of tlj, he’s leading those troops to crait
after all 4/4
Never be afraid to criticize me, I
enjoy challenges. I completely agree it’s garbage. The “had to kill Han"
part was solely from Kylo’s warped perspective and it’s why I put “had”
in quotes. What he should have done was seek the grownups’ help and not
take matters into his own hands, especially in a way that irrevocably
changed Rey’s life.
I also agree that whatever happens in the
movie Kylo will still be a villain. Heck, I think my theory makes him
even more of one, just one with human impulses and feelings that should
keep all of us on our toes because no one is immune from doing evil with
the best of intentions. And I like your speculation, too! Very
reminiscent of ESB Vader, as I think the trailer was intentionally cut
to be.
also if rey was so powerful and being manipulated by snoke and
kylo was also being manipulated snoke when he came up with the jakku
idea, why didnt snoke ever go get her? she’s clearly very powerful in
the force, maybe even more so than kylo and we see in tfa and in tlj
snoke has an interest in her. if kylo left her on jakku i think he did
it of his own accord, not because snoke told him to. also if snoke was
in rey’s head why would he lose contact with her just because she’s on a
new planet?
Well, why not turn that question
around–why didn’t Snoke get Kylo? There could be a lot of reasons, such
as Snoke wanting to use her supposed death and the gnawing guilt of
abandoning her as a way to turn Kylo thoroughly against his parents and
Luke. Maybe she was too powerful, and Snoke feared he would not be able to control her without Kylo as leverage so he had to wait.
You
do propose an interesting possibility, though, so here’s an alternate
version of the theory: Maybe Kylo was the one who introduced Snoke to
Rey, and when Snoke touched her mind disaster ensued. Maybe Snoke did
want to get Rey right away, and Kylo wanted to protect her from him and
prevent other such disasters. We know that whatever connection Snoke has
to Kylo is not absolute–Kylo disobeyed direct orders in TFA and had
his own agenda–so this may have been an example of such rebellion. I
like this version better than the original, although it debunks parts of
the original (such as Snoke alluding to Rey when he said Kylo would
face a test with Han).
As for why Snoke couldn’t still get to
her, there are two answers: First, because Kylo evaded him as discussed
above, and second, because in this theory parts of Jakku have Force
properties that confuse Force sense and/or signature. Maybe this was why
Kylo stopped to stare at Finn after the massacre of the village,
because he thought he sensed a Force signature but couldn’t be sure due
to the area’s suppressive properties.
But why would Ben/Kylo
continue to be in contact with Snoke if he knew Snoke was a bad guy? For
one thing, Snoke by this time was effectively blackmailing him because
it was then-Ben’s action that led to the students’ deaths, no matter how
innocently. For another, I think then-Ben was jealous that Rey had
captured Snoke’s attention so much, and it was as much an attempt to
keep Snoke’s teachings and praise focused on himself as an attempt to
protect Rey. This would give him very mixed motivations.and make him
more of a bad guy than ever.
(This is NOT to say that Snoke’s
abuse of then-Ben under this theory was Ben’s fault, or that Ben wanted
it. Under this theory jealousy would be Ben’s response to the grooming,
the desperate attempt to get his fix in a situation where he was
increasingly being manipulated into dependence. Hurting Rey to get that
hollow validation, however, is a wrongful response to the abuse. Again,
this is all hypothetical of course.)
sorry my asks got so long winded! also don’t take this as me
thinking your full of shit or that i hate your theory. i actually think
the base idea is intriguing and wanted to discuss it a bit. sincerest
apologies if my tone ever came across as inflammatory
No
problem anon! I’m trained to take tough questions. I really wanted to
discuss this theory too, so thanks for taking the time to send the asks.
I enjoyed the conversation.
Warning: I have no idea if I’ve stumbled on to something here or am just pounding sand, but IF I’m right you’d be depriving yourself of a hell of a twist by reading this. Also, I put this in the general TLJ tag because it’s speculation for that movie, but if you’re for or against particular parentage theories and/or ships read the tags before proceeding. There is also a lot of death, violence, trauma and disturbing imagery in this post and a mention of pedophilia (not in support of it, obvs) so exercise caution.
I keep reading theories and headcanons about how Rey was abandoned on Jakku after the destruction of Luke’s school for Jedi, and I find it compelling except for the big glaring timeline problems outlined below. I still feel drawn to the idea, though, and I’ll try to show that this may, in fact, be what happened. I will also discuss some other problems this theory may solve (why Jakku? who left her there?) and how this might put an entirely new spin on Kylo’s and Rey’s stories. Buckle in.
The timeline problem with Rey being left on Jakku after the school’s destruction is that the destruction took place years after Rey’s abandonment. We know that Ben had not yet fallen as of Claudia Gray’s Bloodline, six years prior to the events of The Force Awakens, and the destruction of the school happened after the events of Bloodline when Ben learned of his heritage–that he was the grandson of Darth Vader. By then Rey would have been thirteen years old, far too old to be the child shouting “Come back!”
Right?
Let’s stop right here and unpack the assumptions we’ve made. Here are the facts we know, or think we know, about the destruction of Luke’s school:
Assumption #1: The destruction took place after Ben switched his allegiance and became Kylo Ren.
Assumption #2: Kylo Ren’s fall took place in or after 28 ABY, after the events of Bloodline.
Assumption #3:Kylo Ren killed the Jedi students and destroyed the school.
What if none of these assumptions is true, at least without heavy qualification? It would change quite a lot of what we think we know about the characters and their backgrounds, that’s for certain.
I want to make this very clear, what would not change is the fact that Kylo Ren is a fascist enforcer and mass murderer. This entire post can be summarized as “Cool motive, still murder.” I’m simply wondering if the motive might be so cool that it changes the entire game.
I think this theory is probably pretty warm. It’s too detailed for the whole thing to be true, but I would bet money that the twist is along these lines.
Of course, a Finn twist would be a big surprise too, especially with the marketing. The only way the twist is going to shock anyone is if it happens, like you said, where no one’s looking.
Or … Ben is seduced by Snoke while at the Academy, but doesn’t see him for what he is. He leads the Knights of Ren to the Academy, not allowing himself to admit that they are going to attack and burn the place down. When he realizes what is happening, he saves Rey (Solo) & escapes with her to Jakku, where he blocks her identity & force signature to keep her safe & leaves her with Unkar Plutt. He returns and spends some time traveling with Luke, hiding his guilt and trying to be “good” to make up for it. He can’t commit completely to Snoke and the dark side, but he doesn’t feel he belongs with Luke, either. Finding out about Darth Vader is the last straw, and he defects to Snoke shortly after the events in Bloodline.
That’s closer to an earlier version of this theory (which I discussed with @absolxguardian ) of Ben unwittingly aiding Snoke’s destruction of the school through vanity and gullibility and not malice, then dropping Rey off on Jakku to hide his role. We agreed that Ben condemning her to life on Jakku to cover his own ass would if anything make him more despicable, not less, so I ended up retooling the theory.
Your version on the other hand is more sympathetic, and I think it works. We could have a mixture of motivations, I think, of Ben wanting to keep his sister safe but also, on some level, wanting to hide his responsibility. In fact I think this version of events demands his motive be mixed, because in this version Rey has played no role in the tragedy and the only reason Ben wouldn’t seek Luke’s help is to hide his own culpability. That would make Kylo a really complex character, both caring and self-serving, and it would give Rey plenty to call him out on.
Warning: I have no idea if I’ve stumbled on to something here or am just pounding sand, but IF I’m right you’d be depriving yourself of a hell of a twist by reading this. Also, I put this in the general TLJ tag because it’s speculation for that movie, but if you’re for or against particular parentage theories and/or ships read the tags before proceeding. There is also a lot of death, violence, trauma and disturbing imagery in this post and a mention of pedophilia (not in support of it, obvs) so exercise caution.
I keep reading theories and headcanons about how Rey was abandoned on Jakku after the destruction of Luke’s school for Jedi, and I find it compelling except for the big glaring timeline problems outlined below. I still feel drawn to the idea, though, and I’ll try to show that this may, in fact, be what happened. I will also discuss some other problems this theory may solve (why Jakku? who left her there?) and how this might put an entirely new spin on Kylo’s and Rey’s stories. Buckle in.
The timeline problem with Rey being left on Jakku after the school’s destruction is that the destruction took place years after Rey’s abandonment. We know that Ben had not yet fallen as of Claudia Gray’s Bloodline, six years prior to the events of The Force Awakens, and the destruction of the school happened after the events of Bloodline when Ben learned of his heritage–that he was the grandson of Darth Vader. By then Rey would have been thirteen years old, far too old to be the child shouting “Come back!”
Right?
Let’s stop right here and unpack the assumptions we’ve made. Here are the facts we know, or think we know, about the destruction of Luke’s school:
Assumption #1: The destruction took place after Ben switched his allegiance and became Kylo Ren.
Assumption #2: Kylo Ren’s fall took place in or after 28 ABY, after the events of Bloodline.
Assumption #3:Kylo Ren killed the Jedi students and destroyed the school.
What if none of these assumptions is true, at least without heavy qualification? It would change quite a lot of what we think we know about the characters and their backgrounds, that’s for certain.
I want to make this very clear, what would not change is the fact that Kylo Ren is a fascist enforcer and mass murderer. This entire post can be summarized as “Cool motive, still murder.” I’m simply wondering if the motive might be so cool that it changes the entire game.
I think this theory is probably pretty warm. It’s too detailed for the whole thing to be true, but I would bet money that the twist is along these lines.
Of course, a Finn twist would be a big surprise too, especially with the marketing. The only way the twist is going to shock anyone is if it happens, like you said, where no one’s looking.
I don’t think we’re getting a big twist, to be honest.
That’s not really Star Wars’ style, and I’m with Ed Brubaker on this one, honestly. Twists and turns aren’t necessary for a good story and the audience expects it way too often, even in places where it shouldn’t be.
Well, if we’re not getting a big twist much of the promotion was an outright lie. In Korea, at least, TLJ is being billed as having the MOST SHOCKING ENDING OF ALL TIME. The movie would have to have a twist on the level of what I’ve described to live up to that promise.
Also, not Star Wars’ style? We’re talking about the franchise that didn’t even tell its own actors and crew about “I am your father.” Mark Hamill was informed like five minutes in advance of shooting that scene and was sworn to secrecy. Even the actor playing Darth Vader didn’t know–the line they used on set was “Obi-Wan killed your father!” (which, from a certain point of view…) and the actual line was dubbed in later. When the reveal came a lot of the audience didn’t believe it and thought it was a trick Vader was playing.
That’s the Star Wars we’re talking about. The prequels didn’t play it that way, but they also couldn’t because, you know, prequel. The sequel trilogy isn’t in the past and TLJ is definitely aiming to emulate ESB in terms of shock.
None of this means I like it, either my own theory or whatever twist is coming. I’m with you there. But to say it won’t happen because I don’t like it is wishful thinking.
Ninety-nine percent of all movie marketing is outright lies. It has to, too many people won’t go to the movie if they spoiled it beforehand. And this is the company that’s been criticized multiple times over the last two years for its deceptive marketing campaigns.
And honestly? I’m really cynical about marketing claiming ‘Shocking Twists!’ ‘Change Everything Forever!’ They’ve been doing it in comics for decades now, and it hasn’t been true since at least Claremont left the X-Men. So yeah. I think most of this is a lie.
Besides, what other big twist in Star Wars can you think of? That’s pretty much the only one; Leia as Luke’s sister was more of a retcon than any kind of twist, and the reveal of the clones as the Republic’s guys was only a twist on the meta level; it didn’t really change anything in-universe.
To sum up: yeah, I think a big chunk of the marketing campaign was either an outright lie, an exaggeration, or Lucasfilm letting third parties imply all kinds of shit to tease fans.
I won’t be mad if that happens, so count me in for hoping you’re right.
Warning: I have no idea if I’ve stumbled on to something here or am just pounding sand, but IF I’m right you’d be depriving yourself of a hell of a twist by reading this. Also, I put this in the general TLJ tag because it’s speculation for that movie, but if you’re for or against particular parentage theories and/or ships read the tags before proceeding. There is also a lot of death, violence, trauma and disturbing imagery in this post and a mention of pedophilia (not in support of it, obvs) so exercise caution.
I keep reading theories and headcanons about how Rey was abandoned on Jakku after the destruction of Luke’s school for Jedi, and I find it compelling except for the big glaring timeline problems outlined below. I still feel drawn to the idea, though, and I’ll try to show that this may, in fact, be what happened. I will also discuss some other problems this theory may solve (why Jakku? who left her there?) and how this might put an entirely new spin on Kylo’s and Rey’s stories. Buckle in.
The timeline problem with Rey being left on Jakku after the school’s destruction is that the destruction took place years after Rey’s abandonment. We know that Ben had not yet fallen as of Claudia Gray’s Bloodline, six years prior to the events of The Force Awakens, and the destruction of the school happened after the events of Bloodline when Ben learned of his heritage–that he was the grandson of Darth Vader. By then Rey would have been thirteen years old, far too old to be the child shouting “Come back!”
Right?
Let’s stop right here and unpack the assumptions we’ve made. Here are the facts we know, or think we know, about the destruction of Luke’s school:
Assumption #1: The destruction took place after Ben switched his allegiance and became Kylo Ren.
Assumption #2: Kylo Ren’s fall took place in or after 28 ABY, after the events of Bloodline.
Assumption #3:Kylo Ren killed the Jedi students and destroyed the school.
What if none of these assumptions is true, at least without heavy qualification? It would change quite a lot of what we think we know about the characters and their backgrounds, that’s for certain.
I want to make this very clear, what would not change is the fact that Kylo Ren is a fascist enforcer and mass murderer. This entire post can be summarized as “Cool motive, still murder.” I’m simply wondering if the motive might be so cool that it changes the entire game.
I think this theory is probably pretty warm. It’s too detailed for the whole thing to be true, but I would bet money that the twist is along these lines.
Of course, a Finn twist would be a big surprise too, especially with the marketing. The only way the twist is going to shock anyone is if it happens, like you said, where no one’s looking.
I don’t think we’re getting a big twist, to be honest.
That’s not really Star Wars’ style, and I’m with Ed Brubaker on this one, honestly. Twists and turns aren’t necessary for a good story and the audience expects it way too often, even in places where it shouldn’t be.
Well, if we’re not getting a big twist much of the promotion was an outright lie. In Korea, at least, TLJ is being billed as having the MOST SHOCKING ENDING OF ALL TIME. The movie would have to have a twist on the level of what I’ve described to live up to that promise.
Also, not Star Wars’ style? We’re talking about the franchise that didn’t even tell its own actors and crew about “I am your father.” Mark Hamill was informed like five minutes in advance of shooting that scene and was sworn to secrecy. Even the actor playing Darth Vader didn’t know–the line they used on set was “Obi-Wan killed your father!” (which, from a certain point of view…) and the actual line was dubbed in later. When the reveal came a lot of the audience didn’t believe it and thought it was a trick Vader was playing.
That’s the Star Wars we’re talking about. The prequels didn’t play it that way, but they also couldn’t because, you know, prequel. The sequel trilogy isn’t in the past and TLJ is definitely aiming to emulate ESB in terms of shock.
None of this means I like it, either my own theory or whatever twist is coming. I’m with you there. But to say it won’t happen because I don’t like it is wishful thinking.
Adam mentioning that he didn’t want people to read into how much younger he would be playing his character in TLJ, and getting flustered that he even brought it up, gets me suspecting even more strongly that my theory about the twist is on the mark or at least somewhere around it. As @kyberfox surmised he is most likely talking about the flashback scene(s) of the Jedi temple destruction, and if when it happened is significant enough to be a spoiler it just may change everything we thought we knew about that event.
@thecatsaesthetics Yes his canon age is 30 and I doubt that’s going to be retconned. It would be a highly unusual move to say the least. Playing him younger doesn’t make sense unless it’s for a flashback. Feel free to read my theory for why his age in flashbacks might be significant, or just the Assumptions 1 and 2 in bold if you don’t want to read the whole thing.
Adam mentioning that he didn’t want people to read into how much younger he would be playing his character in TLJ, and getting flustered that he even brought it up, gets me suspecting even more strongly that my theory about the twist is on the mark or at least somewhere around it. As @kyberfox surmised he is most likely talking about the flashback scene(s) of the Jedi temple destruction, and if when it happened is significant enough to be a spoiler it just may change everything we thought we knew about that event.
“God, I hope. I think it will be hopefully unexpected.”
Which of course can mean literally anything. Though given how much people in general seems to be believing that Kylo will be redeemed that theory looks a little less likely now.
But!
When he did an interview with USA Today about Logan Lucky there was this exchange:
Like, okay… LF has maybe been running a less than steady ship with cancelling the Boba Fett movie and firing the two directors of the Han Solo movie a few weeks before the end of the shooting, but this is the ST. I doubt they’re going to cancel Episode IX no matter what.
Postpone it? Yes.
Boot the Jurassic Terror guy and find someone else? Yes.
Cancel it? No.
So… if?
And waaay back in January when Adam did an interview on Larry King Now he was asked directly if Kylo Ren was alive at the end of TLJ.
His reply?
“Depends on what your idea of living is…”
What?
So now I’m honestly wondering if the ST will do the unprecedented and kill off it’s primary villain in Part 2 of the trilogy? Like that is certainly shocking.
Yes Maul was killed in TPM, well he was until Dave retconned that, but even in that movie it s clear that Maul is the side show and the Sideous/Palpatine is the trilogy’s primary villain. Ditto for Dooku.
You have to admit, that would qualify as shocking. And if you’re able to manifest as a Force ghost I suppose you still qualify as some way of being “alive” by Star Wars logic.
Or maybe they’re going to pull a Vader at Mustafar on him and leave him gravely injured, but without resolving if he lives or not at the end?
Man, can you imagine the fandom meltdown if this happens?
Well, and then add to that all of Andy Serkis’ comments about Snoke being disappointed with Kylo, and starting to antagonize him by favoring Hux, and yeah a “you have outlived your usefulness” moment may very well be on the near horizon for Kylo, whether it results in his death or not. It might be interesting in a moral quandary kind of way if a brutally injured Kylo does wind up trying to help the resistance…not because he’s turned good but out of revenge. Do they want to accept his help? Is the enemy of my enemy really my friend? Will he turn on them once Snoke is defeated?
This is all just a theory I’ve been brewing since the Serkis comments, but it would certainly be something new in the franchise. Unfortunately it might mean even more of Kylo overshadowing other characters (boo, especially as they’re just about to introduce Rose) and it would definitely mean the ongoing fandom awfulness in the Re/lo ship (unless the movies make them siblings–oh who are we kidding, I know fandom, it’ll continue even if that happens).
Oh, looks like I was replying partly to you when I added to reynaberrieorgana’s reply. I gotta stop mashing posts together in my mind. But yeah, same comment about Kylo disappointing everyone he ever met lol. I like your idea, Kyle is the type of person to do the right thing for the wrong reasons and vice versa. I mean, his meddling in the BB-8 mission and refusal to follow a direct order resulted in Starkiller firing ahead of schedule and ultimately to the loss of Starkiller Base. He couldn’t even capture the Force user Snoke wanted and had to be rescued by Hux. Most people would be SACKED after that level of incompetence.
The possibility of Kylo Ren overshadowing the other characters is definitely another reason to want him gone. If my guess is correct, though, I think his story in TLJ will be dominated by something else, and if my prayers are answered he’ll die in the same movie.
“God, I hope. I think it will be hopefully unexpected.”
Which of course can mean literally anything. Though given how much people in general seems to be believing that Kylo will be redeemed that theory looks a little less likely now.
But!
When he did an interview with USA Today about Logan Lucky there was this exchange:
Like, okay… LF has maybe been running a less than steady ship with cancelling the Boba Fett movie and firing the two directors of the Han Solo movie a few weeks before the end of the shooting, but this is the ST. I doubt they’re going to cancel Episode IX no matter what.
Postpone it? Yes.
Boot the Jurassic Terror guy and find someone else? Yes.
Cancel it? No.
So… if?
And waaay back in January when Adam did an interview on Larry King Now he was asked directly if Kylo Ren was alive at the end of TLJ.
His reply?
“Depends on what your idea of living is…”
What?
So now I’m honestly wondering if the ST will do the unprecedented and kill off it’s primary villain in Part 2 of the trilogy? Like that is certainly shocking.
Yes Maul was killed in TPM, well he was until Dave retconned that, but even in that movie it s clear that Maul is the side show and the Sideous/Palpatine is the trilogy’s primary villain. Ditto for Dooku.
You have to admit, that would qualify as shocking. And if you’re able to manifest as a Force ghost I suppose you still qualify as some way of being “alive” by Star Wars logic.
Or maybe they’re going to pull a Vader at Mustafar on him and leave him gravely injured, but without resolving if he lives or not at the end?
Man, can you imagine the fandom meltdown if this happens?
I went snooping on IMdB and noticed that Adam Driver isn’t credited with episode 9, while other actors are? I don’t know if it actually means anything, but it’s suspicious.
DIE DIE DIE
I’ve heard a rumor that Snoke’s going to kill Kylo in TLJ, proving Han’s warning right. KK also didn’t list him among characters who will be in future films, so…
That would certainly vindicate poor Han. I was thinking about KK’s list of post-IX characters, too.
Warning: I have no idea if I’ve stumbled on to something here or am just pounding sand, but IF I’m right you’d be depriving yourself of a hell of a twist by reading this. Also, I put this in the general TLJ tag because it’s speculation for that movie, but if you’re for or against particular parentage theories and/or ships read the tags before proceeding. There is also a lot of death, violence, trauma and disturbing imagery in this post and a mention of pedophilia (not in support of it, obvs) so exercise caution.
I keep reading theories and headcanons about how Rey was abandoned on Jakku after the destruction of Luke’s school for Jedi, and I find it compelling except for the big glaring timeline problems outlined below. I still feel drawn to the idea, though, and I’ll try to show that this may, in fact, be what happened. I will also discuss some other problems this theory may solve (why Jakku? who left her there?) and how this might put an entirely new spin on Kylo’s and Rey’s stories. Buckle in.
The timeline problem with Rey being left on Jakku after the school’s destruction is that the destruction took place years after Rey’s abandonment. We know that Ben had not yet fallen as of Claudia Gray’s Bloodline, six years prior to the events of The Force Awakens, and the destruction of the school happened after the events of Bloodline when Ben learned of his heritage–that he was the grandson of Darth Vader. By then Rey would have been thirteen years old, far too old to be the child shouting “Come back!”
Right?
Let’s stop right here and unpack the assumptions we’ve made. Here are the facts we know, or think we know, about the destruction of Luke’s school:
Assumption #1: The destruction took place after Ben switched his allegiance and became Kylo Ren.
Assumption #2: Kylo Ren’s fall took place in or after 28 ABY, after the events of Bloodline.
Assumption #3:Kylo Ren killed the Jedi students and destroyed the school.
What if none of these assumptions is true, at least without heavy qualification? It would change quite a lot of what we think we know about the characters and their backgrounds, that’s for certain.
I want to make this very clear, what would not change is the fact that Kylo Ren is a fascist enforcer and mass murderer. This entire post can be summarized as “Cool motive, still murder.” I’m simply wondering if the motive might be so cool that it changes the entire game.
All right, let’s dive in below the cut.
Assumption #1: The destruction took place after Ben switched his allegiance and became Kylo Ren.
Let’s start with the first assumption, that the destruction of the school happened after Kylo Ren’s fall, that is after the events of Bloodline in 28 ABY.
Well, what if I told you it may have happened a lot sooner than that? Impossible, right? I mean, it’s laughable! Anyone who read Bloodline or has a passing familiarity with the new canon materials knows that Ben was traveling across the galaxy with his master Uncle Luke, frequently out of communication with Leia and Han. I mean, if he’d already destroyed the school by this point how could he… be traveling… all the time…
Wait a minute. Is there proof that the school existed at the time of Bloodline? Luke certainly wasn’t acting like most schoolmasters if he was incommunicado much of the time. Why was he traveling so much if he had a school to run?
I combed through my e-book copy of Bloodline for different search terms–”Luke,” “school,” “Jedi,” “Temple,” “Ben” and so on. And while the book said Luke was a Jedi, duh, there was no reference to other Jedi, or to a Jedi school or Jedi Temple in current existence. This itself seems odd, since this was nearly thirty years after the Battle of Yavin, twenty-three years since the war with the Empire ended. Shouldn’t there be a new generation of Jedi already?
The closest reference I could find to the existence of other Jedi and the possibility of a school was this passage:
[Luke] Skywalker had been so long away on his strange quest for the lore of the Jedi that he no longer had much influence outside his own acolytes. He was a figure of myth more than one of flesh and blood.
So Luke has “acolytes,” which seems to hint at followers and possible graduates of his academy. Still, does it strike anyone as odd that he has so little influence? If he left these acolytes in charge of the school in his absence, presumably he would have more influence through these teachers and their own pupils. Yet that doesn’t seem to be the case, as though there had been some disruption that broke that chain.
I also talked to @absolxguardian, who unlike me has actually finished the book (and for the record is against my madcap theory so don’t blame her), and she confirmed that she does not recall a direct reference to a school. If you’ve found any, please inform me and we can all have a good laugh at how I was obsessing over nothing.
For now, if you want to come deeper down the rabbit hole with me, you’ll have to accept that there is at least some basis to think that Luke’s school was destroyed before 28 ABY, say, a little less than a decade earlier? Maybe prompting Luke to go away on his strange quest and fade into legend? Without that premise none of what comes below works.
Assumption #2: Kylo Ren’s fall took place in or after 28 ABY, after the events of Bloodline.
Let’s move on to Assumption #2, that Kylo Ren’s fall took place on or after 28 ABY, presumably after he learned that Vader was his granddad. You can see how grabbing and shaking Assumption #1 weakens Assumption #2 as well. If the school was destroyed long before 28 ABY and Ben had something to do with it, then clearly it wasn’t just the extra branch in the family tree that sent him over the edge. He had already gone over, or was at least hovering around the edge, for some time now.
But wait, it was Ben who was accompanying Luke on his travels to esoteric holy places. If the timeline went as I proposed above, how could he have fooled his uncle, a Jedi, so completely?
Jedi have been fooled before, though. That was pretty much the plot of the prequel trilogy. Maybe Ben was a manipulator on par with Palpatine or he wasn’t (he wasn’t), but he may have had a master manipulator on his side. That’s right. Snoke, the guy Leia says was watching Ben from the shadows and manipulating him.
One excellent way for Ben to be in his uncle’s good graces and not fall under suspicion was to bond over their shared tragedy, the destruction of the Jedi school–remember, acceptance is the price of entry to this rabbit hole!–and their status as traumatized survivors. What an act! Why, he must be as good an actor as Adam Driver to pull that off!
But what if it wasn’t all an act? Which brings me to the third assumption…
Assumption #3:Kylo Ren killed the Jedi students and destroyed the school.
This is the part that is going to get me anons, and possibly a defamation suit if I’m wrong and fictional characters can sue. Here’s where the cool motive part comes in, and may unravel all the pesky details of Rey’s abandonment that have been troubling me. Step deeper down the hole with me.
What if it wasn’t Ben who killed the students.
What if it was Rey.
Yes, tiny, maybe five-year-old Rey, with skinny arms and her piping child’s voice. That Rey. I told you this would get me anons.
I mean, why would she? Not out of malice, obviously. I don’t believe for a second Rey is a murderer, but rather a weapon. I haven’t worked out the exact mechanics, but much like my earlier Rey Solo theory, I think Snoke may have turned her raw power against the students, killing them. Maybe she was a student, maybe she was a visitor, but whatever she was there for that day, things turned deadly and it became a day of indelible tragedy.
Now that we’re far enough down the rabbit hole and know what we’re working with here, let’s take a freefall down Headcanon Shaft. It’s quickest, and hopefully entertaining, to tell it in fic form without all the qualifications and hedging, so bear with me. Just remember that I’m not telling a definitive version of this theory, simply presenting one way it could work.
A note on the relationship between Ben/Kylo and Rey: This theory works best with Rey Solo as Ben’s sister, but could also work for Rey Skywalker. It might even work with Rey Kenobi, Rey Random etc., though with a big dose of “why?” (One particular part of the headcanon only works if Rey is Vader’s granddaughter, but the theory could work without that part.) I will use the name “Rey” for the purpose of this headcanon, though as a theorist I prefer “Breha.”
I hope it will become clear, though, that even with Kylo and Rey being unrelated this version of events pretty much closes out the possibility of romance between them.
“One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all.”
Rey is unconscious, having spent even her incredible powers. She looks so small among the wreckage and the other children and the adults who tried to defend them, with one difference–her chest rises and falls, where the others’ never will again.
Ben knows. He has gone from body to body, checking, searching, hoping. Now he kneels by Rey’s side, among the fragments of the world they used to inhabit.
But one thing is clear through the fog of shock and sorrow. This wasn’t Rey’s fault, and he has to protect her by any means necessary.
It’s at this point that his trusty advisor, this wondrous man who’s been teaching him so many secrets of the Force, whispers through their link that she can never live a normal life now, that the vengeful surviving Jedi will come for her and lock her away forever. She has to be hidden in a place where she can’t hurt others or attract attention.
But where? Ben asks, sobbing, cradling Rey’s tiny body in his arms. Her clothes, her skin, her hair are stained with the blood of other children, which he tries to wipe away only to smear it around.
Jakku, comes the answer, and Ben’s heart tries to both sink and lift at once. It is a place powerful in concentrated Force energies that will tamp down on Rey’s powers, keeping her and others safe. But it is so remote and far away, it’ll be just like losing her.
There is also no other choice if he wants to keep her free and others safe at the same time. He swears to her that he will clear her name, make the galaxy a safe place for her so that he can bring her back and she can once again live in her own name.
He must act quickly before the adults return. He burns the ruined school down so that Rey’s body will not be missed among the others, apologizing to the dead students and their families. The fire glints red off his tears.
Then he takes the Millennium Falcon, his father’s ship that his parents were using to visit, lays Rey in the back, and launches off. This time he apologizes to his father. He has a feeling he will be making a great many silent apologies in the years to come.
He uses a Force trick his friend teaches him to silence the memories from Rey’s mind. His heart aches again, but again he has no choice. If she remembers who she is she will try to make her way back, and all will be ruined. She could spend her life locked up, might hurt other people again.
Most of all, though, he doesn’t want her to have the memories he will carry for the rest of his days. Just sparing her that may be worth all of this.
She wakes up during the hyperspace jump and is confused but happy enough to chat perched in the copilot’s seat, though he can see she has no clear memory of him. He keeps her entertained by talking to her and distracting her with the old knick-knacks on the ship. He tells her they are taking a trip and will be home soon.
Once he lands on Jakku his will nearly gives out, but he has come too far and this is the only way. “Wait here,” he tells her, seized with the terror that she will wander away and he will never find her again. “I’ll come back for you! It will be all right.”
He exchanges the Millennium Falcon for a freighter with instructions to get rid of the ship, his heart bleeding at the thought of his father. He does not look back as he boards his new ship and leaves Jakku behind.
“Come back!” she screams, though he cannot possibly hear her at this distance through the hull of his ship. He makes the jump to hyperspace too soon, almost hoping to disintegrate. Her voice echoes through the Force for a long time.
He sends out a distress signal when he is safely away from Jakku. When found, he tells a story about how the school’s attackers kidnapped him and he managed to escape. He’s not sure how good it was. The adults, already ashen and dazed, likely do not have the heart to prod and have their world collapse on them once again. He knows what that feels like.
Over the years the secret expands inside him until it threatens to spew out every time he opens his mouth, so he stops talking. About anything that matters, anyway. Every time his mother goes expressionless and numb, every time his father travels away without word when he’ll be back, Ben grits his teeth and clamps down until his ears ring.
“I just never should have sent him away. That’s when I lost him.”
When Luke decides to seek the lore of the Jedi instead of rebuilding the school and asks whether Ben wants to come, he jumps at the chance. Home was becoming unbearable, and he has his own reasons to seek knowledge of the Force. Leia is hesitant but Ben persuades her to let him go. He needs to continue his training, he tells her, and Luke could use the backup. His father is all right with the idea. Ben doubts he even cares. He watches his mother spend her evenings alone and despises the man.
Ben has another reason to stay close to Luke’s side: He knows Luke wants answers about the night his school was massacred. That’s all right, though, with his friend to advise him Ben can find out ten times as much as Luke and stay ahead. And if Luke gets too close to the truth, Ben can kill him.
The first time the thought occurs to him it frightens Ben. Then it comes again, and again, and he grows used to it.
He often wonders during his travels whether Luke suspects anything. At night, when his uncle sometimes turns and cries out, he wonders if it wouldn’t be more merciful to end his misery. He certainly wishes someone would do him the same kindness.
He sleeps with a cloth stuffed in his mouth so he would not cry out something fatal in his sleep. He tries to picture Rey but cannot imagine what she might look like now.
“There was nothing we could’ve done. There was too much Vader in him.”
Almost a decade into their travels Ben is a man, and has learned a great deal but is no closer to solving Rey’s puzzle. Then Luke sits him down and tells him the truth about who he and his sister’s father was, throwing aside the lie they had been telling Ben, the galaxy, all these years.
Ben realizes at that moment that there will be no peace or freedom for Rey or for him. If the universe is to be made safe for Rey to reveal herself, there must be no Force users left to threaten her.
There is a way, his trusty friend tells him. Gentle and noxious as dust on the wind comes a name: The Knights of Ren.
It’s just as well. Once the killings begin they will think he was the Jedi Killer from the school, and it is no lie. That is what he will become, there was just a small time difference. It will make things better for Rey, and that is all that matters.
That night Ben leaves the camp. He looks back one more time at Luke’s sleeping face, troubled in the firelight. He toys with the idea of ending things here, but turns and leaves instead.
He might come to regret it, but regret has become an old, old friend. He is twenty-four years old.
In which I deal with a torrent of objections
If you’re still with me, you probably hate me. Let me answer a few of the possible objections and go into how this theory helps fit some of the puzzle pieces together.
But Ducain stole the Millennium Falcon from Han!
That’s what Han said. Who’s to say his information was accurate? In my version of this theory he and Unkar Plutt were told that story by the same person, Ben Solo.
But since there is evidently text in the incredible cross-sections book about Ducain refurbishing the gun turret while he had the Falcon, let me propose an alternate timeline: Ducain stole the Falcon from Plutt’s parking lot and kept it for a time, during which time he invested in the aforementioned enhancement. The Irving Boys stole it from him, and then Plutt stole it back. Han tracked the train of custody down as far as Ducain, so he assumed old Duc had stolen it directly from him.
Much as in my earlier Rey Solo theory, this version of events adds a layer of emotion and urgency to Han’s search for the Falcon. Since its disappearance is tied to the events at the school, Han would be looking for answers as well as the ship itself. It also explains why he seemed resigned but cool with (evidently) not having the Falcon in Bloodline but was super keen to find it in The Force Awakens: With the revelation of his son’s duplicity it became a much more urgent question for him.
So why didn’t Unkar Plutt get rid of the Falcon?
Does Unkar strike you as a good-faith kinda guy? Ben probably didn’t instruct him to keep Rey in a half-starved state of indentured servitude, either. Plutt also probably knew the ship and smelled a bigger payday down the road. (Anyone else getting a Cossette and the Thénardiers vibes?)
This theory is incredibly white-prioritizing, to have the entire plot and twists wrapped around these two characters and to creat this incredibly convoluted back story just to make Kylo seem sympathetic.
Yes, it is. Unfortunately, given the way Rian is talking I think that makes this theory or something like it all the likelier to happen.
It’s also sexist as fuck, to reduce Rey to an object to be used by Snoke and “saved” by Kylo Ren, and to inflict this undeserved trauma on her.
I completely agree. I hate it, actually, but it does seem to tie a lot of things together and… did I mention I hate it?
This is Reylo and I hate/love you for it!!
This is actually the most anti Reylo theory right up there with Rey Solo (which is likely to be true if something like this happens, because come on). Even if Ben did all this for a girl totally unrelated to him, which is unlikely, if this backstory results in a romance it would be the creepiest grooming bullshit of all time. It would be even worse than if Rey and Kylo had never met before TFA. It’s arguably abusive even without the romance aspect.
Speaking of which, JJ said Kylo and Rey never met!
So we’re into believing JJ now? Not only does he have a track record on this point, why the heck are you believing the cast and crew whose job (well, part of it) is to mislead you? He can always walk that comment back with “never met in this movie” and such.
There are a whole lot of other objections, but you’re too tired and on edge to think of them at the moment.
Correct. Have at ‘em in the asks, reblogs, comments etc. Keep your capslock on. We have to fill the time somehow until TLJ opens, right?
So is this theory actually good for anything?
I should hope so, since I’m staying awake until an ungodly hour to type it up. Here are some of its advantages, as I see it.
1. It gives Kylo Ren the sympathetic back story we were promised, but doesn’t make him a puppet or a secret good guy. It also shows the depth of Snoke’s manipulation while also giving Kylo Ren agency.
2. It explains the Millennium Falcon’s presence within sight of Rey all these years, for as long as she can remember according to Rey’s Survival Guide.
3. It gives emotional depth to Rey’s fascination with pilot imagery, which was also a big part of my previous Rey Solo theory but which never quite fit because I couldn’t think of how to make it emotionally satisfying on a visceral level.
Rey knew that she was waiting for a pilot, hence her sense of comfort from wearing a pilot helmet, keeping a pilot doll, doing flight sims and so on. While it’s unlikely Ben was in a Rebel flight suit there was plenty of Rebel and Empire paraphernalia to be found from the ruins of battle, and she may have made the association. Something probably told her it wasn’t an Empire pilot she was waiting for because oh, the irony…
4. It explains why Rey had to be left on Jakku, which just happens to be a pivotal place in the new canon. absolxguardian’s excellent Rey Palpatine theory also addresses this.
5. “WHAT GIRL?” Kylo Ren heard “Corellian YT model freighter” and “girl” and immediately made the connection. Under this theory, he was probably thinking the whole time about where Rey was in relation to his location and later the location of the search parties.
And remember how pissy he got with Hux about the droid being recovered, not destroyed? I mean I bet he’d love to have a chat with Uncle Luke and all, but was he also trying to set limits on how destructive the mission could be (as in, no bombing from orbit)? Of course it turned out to be plenty dangerous for Rey anyway, but I think we’ve established by this point that Kylo Ren is a master of intellectual and moral laziness, seeing only what he wants to see.
6. It explains Lor San Tekka and the Church of the Force’s presence on Jakku so near Rey in a “correlation is not causation” kind of way. They were there for the same reasons, Jakku’s being some kind of important Force spot. Rey’s presence did not cause San Tekka to be there, but it was also not a coincidence that they were there at the same time.
7. Speaking of which, “There’s been an awakening. Have you felt it?” This line was spoken after Rey left Jakku.
8. Then there’s this part of a deleted scene of Kylo searching the Falcon:
[Image description: Kylo Ren stands in the cockpit of the Millennium Falcon, hunched over and clutching the backs of the pilot’s and copilot’s seats]
See how he’s gripping the copilot’s seat closer with his right arm bent more than the left, almost like he has an arm around someone’s shoulders? Is he remembering the last time he saw little Rey in this chair? I always thought he looked like he was in some sort of pain here, and with my theory goggles on I the pain might have been even sharper and more immediate than I thought at first.
At the end of this cut he says to himself, “Han Solo.” But why? Did he really need to grab the seats to feel his father’s presence? Dude, I don’t have the Force and I could have told you it was Han just by looking at the damned ship. It’s the Millennium Falcon! That crashed through an impregnable shield! How much surer can you get, sniff the seats for Essence du Ford?
No, I don’t think the “Han Solo” line was him feeling his father’s presence. I think he was steeling himself for what he had to do. Yes, I’m going there. Yes, I do believe…
9. This theory explains why Kylo Ren “had” to kill Han. Again, this works best with Rey Solo, but could fit Rey Skywalker, Rey Random etc.
Think about it. He knew from early on from Snoke, in the “There’s been an awakening” scene, that Han was with Rey. Han had talked to her. He could have recognized her, especially if she was his daughter. Rey’s entire cover, the whole reason for Kylo’s existence for the past 15 years, was about to be blown.
Doesn’t that put Snoke’s comment in the earlier scene, that this was going to be a test such as Kylo had never faced, in a whole new context? Kylo knew it then, and he’s realizing it anew: It’s too soon for Rey to be known. Han has to go.
“I know what I have to do, but I don’t know if I have the strength to do it.” Kylo’s words to his father. If killing Han is for Rey’s protection, the idea that he “has” to do it takes on a whole new gutwrenching meaning.
The “Thank you” at the end might well have been genuine–thank you for dying to protect her. I won’t forget this.
And when Han touched his son’s face before he fell? He may well have realized the truth he may have suspected, what his son had been carrying all these years. It was monstrous, it was unthinkable, and yet he understood.
Because Han might have done the same.
10. From the novelization, when Rey catches the lightsaber: “It is you.”
11. “I’ve seen this raw strength only once before.”
What if it wasn’t Ben that Luke was talking about here, but Rey?
012. “Something inside me has always been there. But now it’s awake, and I need help.”
She sounds thrilled about what’s awakening in her, doesn’t she? Why is Rey so terrified of the Force, anyway?
13. “Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That’s the only way to become what you’re meant to be.”
Hmmmm
14. “Fulfill… your… destiny!”
HMMMMMMM
“This isn’t going to go the way you think!”
I really don’t think Rey’s parentage is going to be the SHOCKING REVEAL we’ve been promised, not like Luke’s parentage in The Empire Strikes Back. The “I am your father!” line was shocking because we weren’t thinking about it and nobody saw it coming. If his parentage had been left as an open loop that fans had been given three years to obsess over, someone would have come up with Vader as the father because that’s dramatically appropriate. Or, you know, because everyone would have been Luke’s father by the time ESB rolled around.
With Rey, the parentage was teased from the first and fans have already come up with every theory under the sun and from where the sun don’t shine. That’s not a shocking reveal, it has to be handled for maximum emotional satisfaction and not for shocks.
The twist has to be something we’re not looking at, and we should be looking at Kylo Ren. The amount he has been talked up, the gushing about what a relatable villain he is, cannot be a coincidence even if it’s distasteful to me.
In this post I’ve presented several assumptions that fans have been holding without question, much like Luke’s father being a) dead and b) killed by Darth Vader. I showed how they can be twisted within the bounds of known canon. Whether I’m right or wrong about this theory, the actual twist is going to do something similar by tackling our unexamined assumptions and totally blindsiding us.
I hope you’ve found this exercise entertaining, whatever the twist turns out to be. Hopefully we’ll all find something to enjoy in The Last Jedi.
L.J.'s Obsessions 