lj-writes:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

lj-writes:

@loopy777 Well, obviously. Finn going from “This fleet is doomed” to outright kamikaze for the remnants of that fleet because the person who tased him and mocked him gave him a lecture about the evils of the universe and has a sad past is the height of writing. His character regressing from valuing his own individuality and feelings, something that was systematically denied to him as a child soldier, to seeing himself as expendable for yet another cause is great character development. And his “having” to be hurt yet again to be saved from himself and being lectured to about how hateful he is for wanting to sacrifice himself for other people is a great thematic moment.

And that’s just one character.

If I squint hard the egregious and incoherent “that’s how we win” moment was about Rose realizing she was wrong and telling Finn he shouldn’t throw his life away for a cause like her sister did, that yes, he should live, he should have a chance to see Rey again. But there was a relentlessly glorified suicide run like 5 minutes earlier, and that was evidently about serving the light and not being a hero? And Paige wasn’t trying to destroy what she hated, she was thinking about Rose in her last moments? Finn wasn’t acting out of hate either, he was trying to buy time for the remainder of the Resistance. Why is it love when Holdo does it and hate when Finn does it?

I think I would have liked the scene better without that stupid line, because then at least it could have been about Rose’s trauma and not about her being a thematic vessel or whatever the hell that scene was trying to achieve.

@loopy777​ DJ as catalyst for Finn development is even worse, though? At least
Rose became a friend of sorts. Finn went from fleeing to kamikaze
because a random dude he met in a jail cell spouted nonsense moral
equivalency and then–shock!–betrayed them. That looks awfully flimsy to me.

Did
you seriously put Finn’s “individuality” in quotes? I guess I
hallucinated the parts in TFA where he escaped the regime that kidnapped
and enslaved him out of his own “individual” conscience, where he made
friends and built relationships as an “individual,” and wanted to flee
to the Outer Rim out of his terror and trauma as an “individual.” Or the
part in TLJ where he wanted him and Rey, two “individuals,” to be
spared the destruction. There’s even a part in the TLJ novelization
where he all but begs Rose to understand that he was never allowed to
think and act for himself as an “individual” in the First Order (and
Rose dismisses him because yay friendship)!

I’m sorry, buying
time in a desperate situation has always been a valid military plan and,
for that matter, Holdo’s and Paige’s sacrifices also consisted of
buying time with their lives. There WAS a plan on Finn’s part for the
Outer Rim to rally and come to the Resistance’s aid. Finn had so much faith in the
people of the galaxy rising up against the First Order that he was
willing to literally stake his life on it, and then to have his
attempted sacrifice cheapened by being called an act of hate and not
love left a serious bad taste in my mouth.

Also, even if we say he
was acting without a plan, that is at best thoughtless or reckless, not
hateful. Rose’s speech, though framed and received as a thematic
moment, was unearned and made no sense even by your metric.

Yes, Finn was an individual, but ‘individuality’ was a never a theme or a subplot anywhere; it’s not important to the story, and 7 certainly doesn’t posit it as the reason he left the FO. 8 was clear that no more help was coming to Crait, & everyone knew it by then. And I don’t think “thoughtless and reckless” inspires suicide without some deeper emotion driving it- you’re taking away Finn’s agency, and kind of infantilizing him.

@loopy777 “My first battle, I made a choice. I wasn’t going to kill for them.”

I mean… I can’t believe I actually have to explain what an astounding assertion of individuality that was for someone who was brainwashed to be a cog in the FO machine. He listened to his own trauma, his own morality, in defiance of everything he had been taught his entire life, and I thought that made his individuality pretty important to his story and TFA as a whole. I’m curious, what do you think Finn’s arc in TFA was really about?

Oh hey, I didn’t realize “believing in the people of the galaxy” and “fuck it, I’m gonna save my friends anyway even if no one’s coming” weren’t valid motivations, or that attempting to kill yourself to destroy a weapon that would have been used to kill your friends has to come from a place of hate now. By that metric weren’t Holdo and Paige a lot more hateful, since they killed a metric ton of people in their own suicide runs? Or is it okay as long as they had a good plan–do carefully planned suicide attacks never come from a place of hate? As far as I can tell good planning and hatred are like… two totally unrelated indices. One doesn’t say anything about the other.

And why is it infantilizing to read a motivation in Finn that is not hatred? Believing that people will rise up is infantilizing now? Wanting to save your friends is infantilizing? I mean your handwavy “some deeper emotion” seems to be your own assumption and not anything supported by the story, other than the presupposition that Rose was correct. Why does that deeper emotion necessarily have to be hatred–couldn’t it be love, or maybe depression from everything he had suffered?

@loopy777 But Finn’s story being about asserting individuality explains both of those developments? He tried to flee because he listened to his own trauma and fear about the FO rather than be drawn into another cause to fight for. He came back for Rey not because he was obligated by a higher cause because she was someone he wanted to be safe. It’s clear that he hadn’t given himself to the Resistance at this point, but rather had his own goal he wanted to achieve by helping their mission.

It’s also possible that TLJ badly mangled his arc and his newly discovered individuality is ridiculed and called a bad thing, and then his dedication is also called bad so all he can do now is follow the person who was violent against him and insulted him. Maybe Rose Tico is just a horribly written character. You know, just a possibility.

Again, you can’t deny that earning time for one’s allies is a valid tactic that has been used throughout history, in general to show how noble the person is (e.g. Holdo). Even if no one came, Finn’s allies could still find a way out while their cover was intact. Since no one including Rose was expecting Luke to come, as far as anyone knew at that point Finn’s sacrifice actually was necessary for the Resistance remnants’ survival.

It’s interesting that it’s suddenly a “spiteful act of defiance” and “hate” because Finn does it while it’s “heroic” when Holdo does it. It’s also interesting that, while they both miscalculated, Holdo is judged by circumstances she could have known at the time while Finn is judged by circumstances he could not have. Omniscience is expected for Finn, but not for Holdo. And what’s more, not being omniscient makes Finn spiteful and hateful instead of, like, just not all-knowing.

You seem to have forgotten or misunderstood the role “thoughtles or reckless” played in my argument. That was not my first position, which was that he was making a noble sacrifice and there was no evidence he was acting out of hate, but rather a fallback position that even if we accept for the sake of argument (you know what that is, right?) that Finn’s suicide run was poorly planned, a position I don’t actually agree with, that at best makes him a bad planner and not automatically hateful. I was pointing out that even if you’re right about the sacrifice being needless, it doesn’t support your (or Rose’s) conclusion that he was being hateful.

But Finn wasn’t trying to destroy. He was trying to defend, much as Poe was. That’s another reason Rose’s line was dumb, by the way, because there is no clear line between destroying and defending when you’re being attacked by an enemy that’s trying to annihilate you. There’s a famous case of someone trying to apply pacifism toward fascists in our own world, but Neville Chamberlain doesn’t get the best rap unfortunately.

Eh, you can try to insert “individuality” into Finn’s background psychology, but you’re not really explaining where it was in The Story. If we were meant to read “individuality” in there as something important, it would have been reflected beyond Finn. I could easily read “cowardice” into the same moments and choices, and nothing in the movie would contradict me, but it’s equally unsupported by the wider framework.(1/3)

@loopy777​ Going back to your earlier point Finn is actually not adverse to violence though, did you miss the part where he jumped out at and killed Troopers in battle on Takodana and actually whooped with joy in battle? Cowardice is even more contradicted by his actions where he hatches an incredibly dangerous plan to escape the FO and shows incredible boldness in battle, for instance literally running into someone aiming a blaster at him. There’s a lot of trauma and fear about the FO, understandably, but it doesn’t translate into anything that can be reasonably or fairly termed cowardice. And for that matter, aversion to violence isn’t a thing anywhere in TFA–not a theme, not a subplot, not reflected in the story anywhere. Violence has never been inherently bad in SW, or even in TLJ itself.

I don’t get what you’re saying about Holdo vs Finn. 8 is clear that when they’re fleeing to Crait, they think allies might still come, but by Finn’s attack they know they’re trapped in a box and alone. Finn is in denial, and all he’s doing is hurting himself by giving into the dark side. And that’s where you argument about pacifism falls apart, because Star Wars has feeling-fueled magic. You may not like it, but it’s the point of this whole series. (2/3)

You are confused about the sequence of events. The confirmation that no one is coming explicitly arrives AFTER Finn’s attempted self-sacrifice and Rose crashing into him. It even comes after the “not fighting what we hate” line. The ski speeder mission was launched in the first place because Poe and others agreed with Finn’s argument that they buy time for allies to arrive. The only new information Finn had between the start of the mission and the end of it was that losses were too heavy and he was, most likely, going to die unless he gave up on taking out the cannon. You can’t argue this was “dark side” without arguing that suicide runs are inherently dark side, in which case Holdo is as much “dark side” as Finn.

Also why are you positing that Finn was acting out of hatred in an argument about whether finn was acting out of hatred? That’s circular reasoning. Unless you’re arguing that destroying a weapon to save innocent people/your friends is an inherently hateful act, in which case, well, he was already dark side in TFA and so were Luke and Lando from the original trilogy. Destroying an entire fleet in a suicide run isn’t particularly pacifistic, either.

‘As for “thoughtless and reckless,” I focused on that because we were already disagreeing hardcore about his sacrifice having any purpose, which I still say the movie is very clear on. You’re free to disagree on the clarity of the moment, of course, but I don’t think you can saying something is “unearned” when you’re reading against the text. (3/3)’

Like I said, you’re arguing from a false premise–that Finn knew no one was coming and they were alone, but he didn’t. If I’m wrong about that sequence of events please let me know.

The “thoughtless and reckless” bit is a neat trick on your part, if you’re even aware of what you’re doing. Let’s look at the flow of the argument so far: You said Finn’s act was hateful because he didn’t have a plan. I pointed out that even if he didn’t, though the movie supports my point that he did, not having a plan and being hateful are two separate categories. I labeled your argument correctly, that what you’re arguing is not that he was hateful but that he was thoughtless/reckless at best. Then you turned that against me, imputing your argument to me to accuse me of infantilizing him. That’s not an honest way to argue, Loopy.

Reading against the text is an impressive accusation coming from someone who’s going off an incorrect chronology of events, imputing knowledge to Finn that he couldn’t have had, and making a logical leap from there to calling him hateful, spiteful, giving into the Dark Side etc. If that’s the kind of distortion it takes to make Rose’s line fit, then frankly it doesn’t look very defensible.

I can’t continue the debate due to some family stuff taking my time,

Good luck, I hope everything is okay!

but
I wanted to say I’m not trying to be disingenuous, I think we’re both
getting confused about each other’s arguments. I was trying to argue
that Finn having no plan and fighting anyway *is* hateful, and also
trying to link back your other “thoughtless and reckless” option to the
same thing.

No, you weren’t. You said I was
infantilizing him and taking away his agency, implying that you weren’t
by interpreting his action as hatred rather than thoughtless/reckless.
Also you never explained how not having a plan is equivalent to being
hateful. Repeating it doesn’t make it so.

lj-writes:

Different people are sensitive to different things, and have different reactions as a result. I’ve noticed that even a number of people who are very critical of TLJ don’t see the treatment of Finn as a problem, for instance, and a lot of white women see TLJ as an unqualified victory for female representation. I think a lot of people also react positively to what TLJ was trying to do, especially the last half hour or so, without necessarily dwelling on the failures of execution or how unearned some of its most heartfelt moments were.

And a tech speaking “no one is coming” != confirmation, it’s voicing what was clear to everyone including Finn.

No
it wasn’t omg what the hell are you going on about. They hadn’t even
established communication when the ski speeder mission was launched, and
they went to take out that cannon specifically so they would have enough
time to communicate and for allies to come to them. They were in the
same place information-wise and goal-wise as Holdo was when she did her own suicide
run, unless you’re imputing some kind of telepathetic power to Finn and
the others to magically know without even sending out a call.

I’m
glad we’re no longer continuing this debate because it’s not productive
anymore. If you misremember these pivotal scenes so inaccurately then I
really have to question what it is you like about TLJ–the actual
movie, or the very different version that’s in your head?