They’re trying to erase the existence of the rape victims of Japanese soldiers in World War II because they think the reminder of their crimes might make Japan a little bit cross
Duterte, the absolute coward, is more worried about women criticizing him than actually honoring the women this country needs to remember
Please don’t let these women be silenced.
I stand in solidarity with the Filipinas who suffered as our grandmothers did. You are our grandmothers, too.
Everyone remember when Kylo Ren ordered the slaughter of a civilian village called Tuanul? Notice that not only men were in the village, but woman, eldery and children too?
In fact if you look up at the picture you can even see some of them crying.
Remember how Finn refused to fire on the unarmed civilians that Kylo Ren ordered the Stormtroopers to kill and had been so traumatized that he left the first Order and then fought against them while Kylo went on to lead them?
Remember how people still think Kylo is not a complete and Finn ins’t a hero? Remember how people excused this by saying war is war and didn’t know the difference between self defense and cold blooded murder?
Yeah, fuck those people.
There’s the Kylo apologists’ “enemy combatants.” Absolute fuckers.
It’s not guilt by association. He had full knowledge and was entirely complicit in the destruction of Hosnia. He KNEW about the plan to destroy Hosnia, he was right there when Hux presented the plan and Snoke approved it, but didn’t do Jack Schitt to warn anyone. Instead he doubled down, imploring Gramps to help him stay strong in the Darkness. He literally stood and watched Hosnia happen, knowing it was wrong and even conflicted about it but having made his choice.
This is where the comparisons to Zuko are so insulting. When Zuko found out about his father and sister’s plan to destroy the entire Earth Kingdom he realized this was a bridge too far and refused to be part of it. He confronted his father and then left the Fire Nation to train the Avatar in order to put a stop to the planned genocide. Even a sixteen-year-old boy who had been abused and scarred by his own father acted against and refused to be part of what he knew to be unconscionable.
And YES, throwing Kylo Ren in jail is for the greatest good. The Resistance sure as hell don’t need him. He’s already killed off Snoke, ending up doing some good that way for his selfish reasons, and Rey is stronger in the Force than he is. Finn could still be revealed to be Force sensitive. The Resistance never needed Kylo Ren, and Rey would have seen that from the first if not for her insecurities and self-doubts. I have already detailed how the Resistance could still come back from the end of TLJ (link). I don’t think the lack of one murderous white guy with an overblown sense of his own importance is going to doom them lol. I would far rather place hope in the people around the galaxy, heroes who have sacrificed so much for galactic freedom, and the tens of thousands of enslaved Stormtroopers than on a selfish, narcissistic elitist.
Throwing Kylo in prison would not just be for his involvement in the genocide of a Star System, which he definitely is. The Order was given by Snoke, Hux and Kylo share equal blame.
Let’s list off the known/on screen crimes that would throw Kylo in prison:
Kylo and the Knights of Ren killed their fellow classmates and burned Luke’s temple.
Kylo killed a defenseless Lor San Tekka in cold blood.
Kylo ordered the slaughter of the surrending Jakku villagers.
Kylo tortured Poe, a New Republic Soldier.
Kylo led an attack on Max’s castle and was responsible for the deaths multiple people.
Kylo killed Han, a General in the New Republic.
Kylo led the attack on Leia’s ship, personally killing many of the soldiers on the hanger, like Tallie Lintra. Also this attack Kylo led, killed multiple high ranking soldiers still in affiliation with the New Republic, like Admiral Ackbar.
And finally, Kylo led and ordered the attack to destroy the rest of the Resistance that caused the deaths of multiple New Republic soldiers, including Commander Luke Skywalker.
Kylo at this point is lucky is he gets prison. It’s would be a charity, that would literally be a favor of the greatness magnitude for Leia.
Death is too easy. I want him to stew for the rest of his life in the humiliation of defeat, ranting about how right he is. And if he does end up seeing what horrible, irreversible crimes he committed and his conscience mauls him for the rest of his life so he never has a moment of peace, then all the better.
Maybe this is a cold take but I’m serving it up anyway
R/eylos and K/ylo stans always spout off like “Star Wars is about ReDeMpTiOn!!!!!” to justify why Rey and k/ylo should bone or why k/ylo should be redeemed but tbh it’s bullshit?
Star Wars is not about redemption, at least not for redemption’s sake. First, Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader was never redeemed. George Lucas himself said that Anakin/Vader was not redeemed, nor could he ever be. He returned to the light. That’s not the same as redemption. People like to cite Anakin’s journey as thematic proof for why evil characters can/should be redeemed, but the argument is invalid because he never was.
And he only returned to the light because of Luke. Luke’s unconditional love connected with that last minute shred of humanity, and that was what brought him back to the light. Had it not been for Luke, Vader never would have returned to the light. His turning was not his accomplishment, it was Luke’s. I will refer to Anakin/Vader’s return to the light as his “redemption” henceforth, but only for the sake of concision.
Now, even if we accept the argument that Anakin was redeemed, that still does not mean Star Wars is “about redemption”. Star Wars, at least the theme of the original trilogy, which we commonly consider the theme of the franchise, is about choice. Luke’s choice to bring Leia the Death Star plans. Luke’s choice to disobey Yoda and go to Cloud City to save his friends. Luke’s choice to disregard Yoda and Obi-Wan’s view of Jedi philosophy. Luke’s choice to offer forgiveness and redemption to Vader. Luke’s choice to cast aside his lightsaber. Vader’s choice to sacrifice himself to save his son.
Redemption is a potential side effect of choice. It’s not a precursor and it’s certainly not automatic. A person isn’t redeemed just because they’re sorry. A person isn’t redeemed because they tried to make amends. You don’t get to choose redemption. Redemption is given to you. Vader wasn’t given redemption. He was given a choice. Once. By his son, out of love and compassion.
K/ylo was given a choice to return to the light. Twice. By two different people. Both times he refused and then killed or tried to kill the people who offered him. This man has made his choice TWICE, AFTER choosing to fall to the dark side in the first place. Why should he be offered yet another chance? And why would he expected to make a different choice? And even if he did, why should he be considered eligible for redemption? He can’t un-murder all those innocent people, he can’t un-torture Rey and Poe.
K/ylo Ren does not want to be redeemed. K/ylo Ren does not deserve to be redeemed. K/ylo Ren made his own evil choices and clings to the dark side. Thematically speaking, K/ylo Ren is a sub-optimal candidate for “redemption”. Practically speaking, redeeming that slithering trash heap after all he’s done would just be yet another case of powerful (white) men not being held responsible for their actions because they say they’re sowwy.
“One who has fallen so far and done so much does not deserve redemption.”
-Kreia/Darth Traya-Arren Kae
YES. Star Wars is about choice. It’s always been about choice.
Great Meta.
If its choice, what if he chooses light at some point? if he chooses darkness, the answer is obvious, but what if he starts doing good? Is there nothing that he can do to be redeemed, or is dying for the cause the only way, or prison, or what? I’m super curious about how the powers that be will do, Its almost like they have painted themselves into a corner, and no matter what, there will be a bad outcome. The last Skywalker dies, or he gets away with murder.
1. He’s not necessarily the last Skywalker
2. No, there is nothing he can do to be redeemed. It doesn’t matter how much good he does. Even if he dies, he won’t be redeemed. He can’t un-do genocide. He can’t un-do mass murder. He can’t un-do war crimes. He can’t un-do torture.
Redemption is a matter of undoing, and for the right reasons. If you can’t un-do the harm you’ve caused, or if you did it selfishly, you can’t be redeemed. His death would not make up for the hundreds of lives he’s directly responsible for taking and the billions of lives he indirectly took. He could never die enough times to be redeemed for the suffering he caused. He could never spend long enough in prison to be redeemed for the pain he created.
And the thing is… Kylo Ren living happily ever after with Rey (or whoever) after being “redeemed” is a contradition in terms. Even aside from the fact that he can’t be redeemed, even if we take the word in the sense of him becoming a better man and seeing the wrong in what he did… what happiness can there ever be for a GOOD man who has committed genocide, mass murder, and torture? How would he get a single peaceful night’s sleep? If such a man can live with himself, if he can be happy and content and in love with one of his victims… then he is obviously not a good man. He is obviously not sorry for what he did, has found some way to rationalize or blame someone else for his deeds.
Either Kylo Ren can be happy or he can be good, but he can’t be both. Chances are he’ll be neither, because happiness is a really dicey proposition after all the misery he’s caused.
[Image description: Definition of MURDER 1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought – was convicted of murder]
It’s also yet another word that Reylos evidently don’t know the meaning of if they’d say shit like this:
[Image description:
anonymous said: reylos are pathetic. how can you guys like kylo ren? he’s a MURDERER
answer: Hello, anon, I could give you an elaborate answer, but I’ll follow your (lack of) logic and play along. Yes, Kylo Ren kills people.
But so does Finn. (image of Finn stabbing a Stormtrooper with a lightsaber)]
The post goes on with more examples from Poe, Han, and Rey, and ends with:
[Image description: Welcome to Star Wars, where major characters kill other people. Have a lovely day.]
I’m… actually shaking? This person equated Finn’s actions with those of a mass murderer. Literally every single one of the examples she posted–Finn at Takodana, Poe at Tuanul, and Rey at Takodana–were killings done in defense of self and others, thereby justified, therefore, hello, not murder.
This shitty “answer,” whether in ignorance or dishonesty, completely avoided the point of the question and drew a completely false moral equivalence, trying to blur a crucial boundary.
And you know what, I have people in my line who killed in defense of their loved ones and homes when my country was invaded. They were not murderers. Look at that definition again: Killing =/= Murder. How dare you?
Funny, isn’t it, how this group is so quick to cry “It’s just fiction!” when it comes to their ship, but when it comes to defending their murdering fave they’re so quick to change the definitions of real-life words and insult real people.
I remember seeing the full post, and it was an
exaggeration, but so was the ask – that anon had no business asking such
a question. Some people like fictional murderers. I sure do. Ask a
stupid question, get a stupid answer.
And either way, none of your attempt at logic applies – a) this is
fictional fantasy world. b) the galaxy is at war. and war has different
rules.
Oh, I think we can all agree the anon was being an ass. However, where the ask was asinine the answer goes in a direction that is both disingenuous and dangerous. Seriously, equating self-defense with aggressive violence is how atrocities are justified.
For the record I like fictional murderers, too, and I find Kylo Ren fascinating. What I don’t do is equate his actions with those of characters who were defending themselves and others against unjust aggression.
On to your points, a) no, there is no evidence that mass murder is any less wrong in this universe. In fact mass murder is so wrong in this world that even one of the Stormtroopers who, according to your shitty fave, “were programmed (hurk) from birth,” could see how wrong it was. Show me what alternative rules of engagement apply in the SW verse to make annihilating entire planets okay or defensible. Oh, that’s right, you can’t.
Besides, even if SW is fictional the people who create and consume this fiction are human beings on Earth. Fun fact, the directors and writers of The Force Awakens are Jewish and they certainly have a viewpoint on mass murder and the inhumane treatment of prisoners.
To say you don’t read Star Wars in this way so you can keep your fannish obsession guilt-free is one thing; to say Star Wars can’t be read as a message on oppression and war crimes is just being an asshole.
b) Did you seriously try to tell a lawyer with a doctorate in international law what the laws of war are? Fine, here are the laws of war (emphases mine):
Geneva Convention (IV) on Civilians, 1949
Article 32:
The High Contracting Parties
specifically agree that each of them is prohibited from taking any
measure of such a character as to cause the physical suffering or
extermination of protected persons in their hands. This prohibition
applies not only to murder, torture, corporal punishment, mutilation and
medical or scientific experiments not necessitated by the medical
treatment of a protected person, but also to any other measures of
brutality whether applied by civilian or military agents.
Who are these protected persons who may not be mistreated?
Article 4:
Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find
themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party
to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals.
Applying the above, Kylo Ren ordered the murders of civilians in the territory he invaded, which is a clear violation of the laws of war.
You might argue that the inhabitants of Tuanul were armed. Does that change things? Nope. They were not armed at the time Kylo Ren ordered them killed, and even if we see them as captured combatants these provisions apply:
Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, 1949
Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
The inhabitants of Tuanul clearly fit these criteria and are treated as prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions. Poe’s status should be obvious, but to elaborate he falls under Article 4(A)(2):
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
And what are the protections provided to these prisoners?
Article 17, paragraph 3:
No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.
Article 130:
Grave breaches to which the preceding Article relates shall be those involving any of the following acts, if committed against persons or property protected by the Convention: wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, compelling a prisoner of war to serve in the forces of the hostile Power, or wilfully depriving a prisoner of war of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed in this Convention.
Therefore, if you view the inhabitants of Tuanul village as enemy fighters, Kylo Ren’s order was still a brieach of the laws of war because they were his prisoners at the time and no longer posed a threat. Poe’s torture was similarly a grave breach, that is an especially serious violation, of the laws of war in the treatment of prisoners.
As for the destruction of the Hosnian system, I can’t believe I even have to cite a law for this outside of basic fucking humanity, but if you want chapter and verse here’s one:
Protocol Additional to the
Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of
Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), 8 June 1977
Article 48:
In order to ensure respect for and
protection of the civilian population and civilian objects, the Parties
to the conflict shall at all times distinguish between the civilian
population and combatants and between civilian objects and military
objectives and accordingly shall direct their operations only against
military objectives.
The entire Hosnian system was not a military objective. Their fleet, shipyards, military bases and so on would qualify, but not the entire system. It’s clear from our view of the city that these were civilians going about their lives, and the First Order wiped out entire populations solely due to the fact that they lived in the territory of a hostile government. That has never been an acceptable method of warfare, not even at Hiroshima and Nagasaki which you lot love to cite. (Me, I like to cite it as an example of victor’s justice. I’m in a country that was actually under Japanese occupation and am happy as anyone they lost, but as a legal scholar and as a goddamned person I still don’t condone the slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians. Funny how that works.)
In conclusion, yes, a person may kill in war. But one may kill combatants who are an active threat, not civilians or prisoners. These are still unjustified killing, i.e. murder, even in times of war, and the killing and torture of prisoners is never justifiable, to say nothing of the destruction of entire planets full of civilians.
So tell me again how different laws apply in war. I know the laws of war, honey, and the First Order committed breathtakingly obvious breaches left and right. Also tell me how a Jewish director and Jewish writers created a movie where mass murder is totally okay and in any way the moral equivalent of fighting back against such attacks. Go on, I’ll wait.
Also the Hosnian genocide was the FO’s declaration of war? The “the Galaxy was at war” excuse doesn’t even hold within TFA itself for the Tuanul massacre, Poe’s abduction and torture, the Battle at Takodana (INCLUDING Rey’s abduction), OR the Hosnian genocide *even if* you’re so unethical that you think torture or the mass, systematic murder of civilians could ever be considered ethical – even during wartime. The Galaxy was NOT at war until the third act of TFA. Everything the First Order did up until then was completely unjustifiable, and if the non-Centrist Senators knew about what the FO were doing, they could have arrested every “officer” (which is in quotes because the FO is not a legitimate military, it’s a militia.)
In fact, the REASON the Tuanul Massacre happens is to prevent any witnesses from reporting that the FO took Poe, a New Republic Defense Force officer, prisoner. The FO’s entire engagement policy is based on “this is an illegal act, so leave no witnesses” – until they declare war by destroying the governing body and official military that could hold them accountable. It’s like, key to the entire ST that war isn’t declared until the Hosnian System is destroyed.
The Poe comics go into detail about how the Resistance’s engagement policy with the FO is that they can never shoot first, because the Galaxy is not at war, and even though the Resistance is an unofficial militia as well, Poe’s status as an NRDF officer* (along with many of the other pilots, and I’d have to guess officers/ground crew, too, but IDK for sure) would give the FO just cause to argue before the Senate that the Resistance-allied planets and senators are the aggressors and that the Centrist/FO-aligned planets have a right to defend themselves through warfare. The Resistance, until the Hosnian genocide, is EXPLICITLY IN THE CANON TEXT, a defense-only organization. Poe is a STICKLER about not shooting first.
Which is why it’s actually really interesting, and important, that he does not shoot Kylo Ren at Tuanul until AFTER Kylo killed Lor San Tekka. Kylo and Lor San Tekka are technically both civilians – the Knights of Ren are, shockingly, not a recognized military organization in the Galaxy – and Poe is not.* He can’t engage on a civilian. It seems from BTA that Poe’s position in the NRDF is like a cross between a cop and a military officer, though, so once Kylo has killed and still has an active weapon in use, Poe can engage. And he tries.
HOWEVER, THEY’RE STILL NOT AT WAR, so the FO’s abduction of Poe is STILL ILLEGAL AND UNETHICAL. HE IS NOT A PRISONER OF WAR: HE’S A KIDNAPPED INDIVIDUAL. (Same for Rey, when Kylo abducts Rey – although the FO has declared war at that point, Rey is a civilian. She’s not part of the Resistance when Kylo abducts and tortures her. She’s just a civilian who defended her own life when an illegal militia stormed the non-combat zone she was in.) Since Poe was tortured for at least 14 hours BEFORE Kylo even went in, we can assume this was the FO acting as an organized group, not just Kylo going rogue because he hates that Poe is close to his mom or something. (Which would also, obviously, not be ethical.)
The point is, they’re not at war, and the main reason they would be heading towards killing Poe is so that he can’t report what happened to him either to the Resistance OR to the NRDF/Senate. Finn’s intervention saved Poe’s life, but also probably bumped up the timeline for when Starkiller was going to be fired, because if Finn and Poe survive their TIE crash and make it to Leia, the Senate will know what the FO did to the Tuanul villagers AND to one of the NRDF’s star officers – with proof. (IIRC, isn’t that part of why Korr Sella is on Hosnian Prime during the genocide? She was there as Leia’s emissary giving testimony against the FO? I can’t remember 100%.)
Everything about how the FO comports itself underscores the fact that they KNOW they have no actual grounds to take any of the actions they take. They hide in the Outer Rim so the NRDF patrols are less likely to discover them. They kill all witnesses. They do not declare war through legal/ethical channels (IE: there’s SPECIFICALLY AND POINTEDLY no warning before they engage in hostilities against the standing government body [which arguably makes the FO a coup, but still, they were NOT at war until after Starkiller’s firing], no options are given to negotiate for neutrality or compromise, and the entire point of the Hosnian Genocide, besides eliminating the governing body that could hold the FO accountable, was a show of force to threaten all of the other Systems into compliance/submission).
I would honestly wager that part of why Hux hates Kylo is that Kylo doesn’t care about not drawing attention to himself, and he could get them ALL caught and tried for treason. (Maybe that’s why Phasma and the troopers are sent with him to Tuanul in the first place? ‘Clean up after Kylo.’)
ANYWAY, that’s all to say that the Galaxy is absolutely NOT in a state of war, and yes, every single murder committed by Kylo, Phasma, and Hux during the TFA is murder, and every killing committed by Finn, Poe, the Resistance, and Rey is self-defense and the defense of others; thus, not murder.**
*There’s mixed canon about Poe’s status in the NRDF. The comic states that he is an active officer on leave, the Logbook states that he resigned, and iirc another one of the books says that he’s AWOL, but I’m not sure which one that is or if I’m remembering that part correctly. Either way, the canon status of Poe’s NRDF enlistment is not 100% clear.
**The Galaxy is also not at war when the Empire commits the Alderaanian Genocide, which was another show of threat meant to cow other Systems into submission. The difference there is that it WAS committed by the official military, but like, you’re still not allowed to commit genocide. That’s the whole… Nazi parallel… rearing its head again…
^^^^Holy shit, this is such a magnificent breakdown and exposes the utter bankruptcy of the argument that the laws of engagement as we know them don’t apply to the GFFA.
And yes, Korr Sella was on Hosnian Prime as Leia’s emissary to inform the Senate of what the FO was doing so the New Republic could take action. I’m pretty sure that was why Snoke & Hux fired the weapon when they did, so they could gain the upper hand in the coming war.
“Oh it was wartime so that makes everything Ok! What the fuck is a war crime? I don’t know, cause im so fucking smart I can notice ~microexpressions~ on a character in a movie!”
That’s a good explanation of what the Empire (which the first order rose from) did with captured rebels. Want even more info? Read Bloodlines, a novel about Leia in the years leading up to TFA. See how well she dealt with the torture Vader put her through on the Death Star, nearly 25 years after the fact. See how well she understood that he was “just a soldier” and just following orders. Remember kids; the Empire called it “interrogation” too. Doesn’t make it ok.
And you wanna see some examples from real life? Remember that Star Wars (and sci-fi in general) always pulls from reality. Why don’t you Google…
American POWs in Japanese camps during WWII, and Vietnam during the Vietnam War.
Prisoners kept in Guantanimo Bay and tortured (sorry, interrogated) for being suspected terrorists. This might be more accurate, as often the prisoners were civilians and not soldiers.
Abhu Ghraib. Warning, a lot of the pictures are graphic and triggering to many. Please use caution on this one.
Hell, go ahead and look up the details of Nazi concentration camps. We don’t get taught everything in school my guys.
Look up the concentration camps in North Korea. Again, noncombatants form the main bulk of prisoners there.
Stop using “official terms” as excuses for you shitass ship. I can go on and on about how sadists and criminals ended up in high positions in militaries across the world. Kyle Ron knows exactly what he’s doing, and that should scare the crap out of everyone. Because Rey is a POW (or more accurately, imprisoned noncombatant) makes what Kylo did to her that much more sick.She basically holds the same status as any civilian that doesn’t fully support the regime they’re under, and like a good fascist dictatorship, they captured her and tortured her. Also, it was clearly Ren who gave most of the orders in the movie. He’s not a soldier; he’s a fucking commander. He’s the one giving the orders most of the time. He gave the order to kill the people on Jakku (another war crime). You are supposed to hate him. He stood by and watched the entire New Republic go up in flames (ding ding, another war crime.) He could have pulled a Finn and refused to take part in it, but no, he stands there while billions of people lost their lives to a fascist regime.
Again, any of the above real world examples may contain a whole slew of triggers, ranging from torture, blood, sexual assault, violence, and anything in between. If you want to know more, message me and I’ll help give you a watered down version.
Tell that to J.J. Abrams, Rian Johnson, and Adam Driver, who discussed politics and terrorism in their conversations about Driver’s character. I have also addressed this exact fatuous claim before.
If you’re talking about the International Criminal Court established by the Rome Statute you’re absolutely right, every single person indicted or wanted by the ICC has been an African and, other than Libya, all of them concern situations in Sub-Saharan Africa.
To be clear I absolutely support bringing to justice perpetrators of these heinous crimes. At the same time I question the fact that an institution created by Europeans purports to bring justice to Africa when European colonial practices used systematic brutality to rule Africa, the same kinds of atrocities such as mass murder and mutilation that these defendants are accused of. I question the fact that Europeans were able to destroy and weaken indigenous systems of governance in Africa, which led to the chaos and conflicts in the first place, and then rush in to fill the institutional void. I question the fact that Europeans and descendants of Europeans still use violence with impunity in Africa, Latin America and other resource-rich “poor” regions of the world and you never see and I predict will never see a white face in the docket of the ICC, at least not for killing people of color. (There is one European situation under investigation, in the context of the civil war in Georgia.)
Now if you expand the question to other international tribunals the answer gains a few wrinkles, since the main precursors to the ICC are the Nuremberg Tribunals after the end of World War 2, the International Criminal Tribunal for the formal Yugoslavia (ICTY), and the United Nations Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR). All of these were ad hoc tribunals set up to address specific conflicts and meant to close shop when their mandates were done, as opposed to the ICC which is a permanent tribunal whose jurisdiction covers potentially any conflict happening anywhere (in practice exclusively in Africa so far, as discussed above). The Nuremberg Tribunals and ICTY did in fact indict and convict white people, but for crimes committed against other Europeans. It should be noted, though, that the bulk of the genocides were committed against groups whose claim to whiteness is contested and complex, such as European Jews, Romani, and Bosnian Muslims.
In addition to international tribunals there are also domestic courts, which also have jurisdiction over war crimes and which actually try the bulk of war crimes due to problems of jurisdiction and sheer volume. The United States, for instance, has not ratified the Rome Statute so the ICC has no jurisdiction under normal circumstances over war crimes committed by U.S. personnel. In fact the United States has said it is willing to use force to rescue any citizen arrested by the ICC. Also international tribunals such as ICTY, ICTR, and the ICC try high-profile defendants such as heads of state and generals. If they tried to convict every defendant they’d quickly be overwhelmed, which leaves the small fry to the domestic courts. And countries like the United States do prosecute and convict their personnel for war crimes, although it’s not nearly enough in my opinion and too many get off without consequence.
On some occasions nations try foreign nationals for crimes against its people, what might be called victor’s justice, as in the case of Israel trying Eichmann. In Israel’s case the “victory” was that the Jewish people were not entirely destroyed, not to mention victory against the British Mandate and the Palestinian people in setting up their own state, rather than military victory against Nazi Germany. Victor’s justice is usually discussed in a pejorative context as not being justice at all, such as the way many Allied personnel faced no charges for war crimes committed during and after World War 2. In Eichmann’s case I think it actually worked, though, both morally and legally, since his trial wasn’t some kangaroo court but rather was fairly conducted.
The above is a long setup to say: with regard to Kylo Ren or someone like him, history tells us that the best hope for justice is actually victor’s justice. His situation is unlikely to go to an international tribunal because there will likely be only one state left after the end of the conflict, either a successor to the New Republic or whatever state or state-like entity is set up by the First Order. This means Kylo Ren would be tried by a domestic court rather than an international tribunal. If the First Order wins he’s not going to face any kind of justice for his crimes, except possibly for insubordination or treason if Hoax wins the internal struggle. If the Resistance wins Kylo Ren will face charges and most likely be convicted with the sentence being capital punishment or life in prison, unless the bench is entirely staffed by Reylos and Kylostans of course.
L.J.'s Obsessions 