jewishcomeradebot:

lj-writes:

jewishcomeradebot:

“Kylo Ren doesn’t have a clear and obvious motive, that makes him badly written!”.

No sorry, Kylo does have a clear and obvious motive. He wants power and control. That was clear in TFA and TLJ only underscored it.

Listen, I’m sorry it’s not the sympathetic motive you want him to have, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

I’m really flabbergasted at even Kylo’s detractors being this bad at character analysis. It’s almost like white villains have to have some sympathetic reason for doing what they do and not just want to rule because they think it’s their right.

But you know what? A lot of white people are just like that. So not only is Kylo nuanced with this, he’s entirely realistic. Possibly a bit too realistic for most people.

I think a lot of it is cultural Christianity at work, coupled with the expectation that Star Wars has to be a story of redemption. I ran across a site called Catholic Moral Theology openly wringing its hands, post-TFA, that Ren’s evil did not seem to be of the sort that admitted to redemption (link). Instead of extrapolating a story that fits the character they were putting the cart before the horse, deciding SW had to be about redemption and viewing the character through that lens. Which is hilarious, because who says the ST villain has to go the same route as the OT villain? Or that the ST is still a Christian story at all? Not to mention, the comparison itself is off because we knew nothing of Vader’s motives in the OT anyway.

The above is example is blatant about its religious viewpoint but we see the same thought process all the time in fandom, with fans constantly saying SW is about redemption and straight up making shit up about the character to make him seem redeemable. I think that’s what really troubles a lot of people about Ren; it’s not that he is incomprehensible, it’s that he seems unsalvageable.

I mean, in part I think you’re right. But I see this sentiment constantly from people who don’t want, or don’t believe, that Kylo can/should be redeemed.

Like why would you want a nuanced and sympathetic reason for Kylo going evil if you (general you) think he’s meant to be – and remain – evil?

I get this line of reasoning from the “Bendemption” crowd. I don’t agree or sympathize with their view, but I understand them and their motive for wanting something else and more. But from the “Kylo is evil and please let him remain evil” group?

And it’s not that he couldn’t have had one, it’s the argument that he must have a reason beyond “wanting power and control” or he’s badly written or his portrayal is unnuanced. Kylo is anything but unnuanced – and yes he’s badly written in TLJ but everyone is so that’s hardly new – and really, why is self entitlement such a bad motivation, or considered unnuanced?

Is it sympathetic? No, not at all. Self entitled people tend to be assholes and the opposite of sympathetic, but that doesn’t make them unnuanced.

So it really by now feels like “if white Nazi doesn’t have a sympathetic reason for choosing to be a Nazi he’s a badly written character because… well, white men must have”. No, sometimes people are simply assholes because they feel they have the right to lord over everyone.

I suppose on its own this could be seen as unnuanced. I don’t think so but I can see an argument for it. But what makes it doubly interesting is that Kylo is the son of heroes, of humble and compassionate people. And yet he chooses self entitlement.

So no, I really can’t see how people can see him as unnuanced. And it really has nothing to do with wanting him redeemed, and even Christianity in this I think is only tangential. It’s feels like it’s right back to “white guy must be sympathetic or it’s bad writing”, even from the parts of the fandom who sees him as a villain.

Which is where I can’t follow anymore. Kylo Ren is unsalvagable because the story wants and needs him to be. But even the people who wants him to remain “unsalvaged” keeps going on about how he must have a motivation that would make him salvagable or he’s badly written. It just… annoys me at this point, is all.

Good point, wanting a redemption certainly doesn’t cover people who don’t want him to be redeemed. Whiteness and his heritage play into this line of thinking, definitely, and so I think does his being a young and able-bodied guy. We’ve had villains driven by powerlust before. No one asked why Palpatine wanted power, or if there was some deep rooted psychological reason why Gollum or Sauron wanted the One Ring. Even Vader in the OT did not have terribly clear motivations for his fall. Yet Gollum and Vader are considered some of the best villains of all time, while Palpatine and Sauron are some of the scariest forces of nature. That’s because the desire for power, whether it’s the Force, political power or a magical MacGuffin, has ALWAYS been considered a sufficient motivation. It’s deeply suspect that this equation changes the moment the main villain is a fuckable white guy.